The principle of self-determination should be the overriding consideration, and the Crimean Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum on union with Russia is something which always needed to be part of a solution. But plainly this month is much too fast, and a referendum campaign which gives people an informed and democratic choice cannot be held while the Crimea is under Russian occupation and those against the proposed union with Russia are suffering violence and intimidation.
The EU needs to move towards Putin. An approach that sticks rigidly to Ukrainian territorial integrity being inviolate is sterile. An international agreement is possible, if the EU makes plain to Russia that it accepts the principle of self-determination. Agreement should then be reached on immediate withdrawal of Russian forces into their allocated bases in Crimea, and back to Russia if there are indeed extraneous numbers, and an international monitoring presence for the OSCE.
The referendum should then be scheduled for the end of this year, with guarantees of freedom of speech and campaigning, equal media access and all the usual democratic safeguards, again to be monitored by the OSCE.
The apparent pullback from violence has been very useful, but the diplomatic and economic fallout is still potentially very damaging. Following the Anschluss, Hitler held a referendum in Austria within one month of the military takeover and received 99.7% support. At the moment Putin stands open to a legitimate accusation of pulling precisely the same stunt in precisely the same timescale.
Ba’al Zevul (Even Mail Hacks Don’t Read The Mail)
If you know nothing about history, try to avoid wikipidia. All that you present seems superficially true, unless you ask yourself a simple question. Why should have been Germany awarded with a territory that had never belonged to it after having just lost a war where the Czechs were on the winning side (do not come up with the holly roman empire please)? If you cannot provide a sensible answer just ignore that gibberish. You probably have not even heard that Benes wanted to incorporate parts of Germany, Lausitz in particular, into the new republic. This was a crazy idea but it clearly demonstrates the balance of power at the Versailles conference.
And the Devil said to David Cameron: “You see how rich Tony Blair is now after his wars in Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan. All this can I give you, if you do my will!”
The neocon’s won’t like it, and thus we’ll get the usual strident anger from the usual suspects in the usual outlets. I begin to wonder if I should bother reading newspapers at all.
Win Win for Putin. He should withdraw his troops, so will look moderate (which he isn’t). And the referendum will doubtless go his way. And the NATO\US\EU cabal will, again look like idiots – which they are.
I did note one comment in the Guardian, which I paraphrase. Really, it doesn’t matter, it’s just a choice between different oligarchs, and they are all much the same.
Craig
“Following the Anschluss, Hitler held a referendum in Austria within one month of the military takeover and received 99.7% support. At the moment Putin stands open to a legitimate accusation of pulling precisely the same stunt in precisely the same timescale.”
Bringing Hitler as a substitute into the match at the last minute of the game is, in my humble opinion, a clumsy attempt to substitute emotions for cool reasoning. You want to deny or at least bring in some doubt into our minds that Hitler was immensely popular in 1938 in Austria and in the so called Sudetenland where thousands of puerile females pissed into their pants from joy of a having the privilege to greet him (cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6mR1IYyKmo). I have seen better documents but cannot find them on the internet.
It is becoming increasingly dangerous to say that Hitler was popular and it is only a question of time until any statement of this fact will become in the UK a criminal offense. Finally, it is pointless to contemplate whether he actually got 99.7 or perhaps only 80 percent of the popular vote.
Old Mark
You said “I know, given your background, you probably have grounds to assume that non Slavs in the FSU who are pro Moscow must, by definition, be ‘collaborators’- but assumptions aren’t facts.”
Please read this about Rustam Temirgaliev. It is in Russian but you can translate it via google. He is not Crimean but Volga Tatar. I know for Anglo Saxons all Tatars are the same (as much as all other non-Europeans for that matter). But there is significant cultural, religious (in some cases) and historical difference (not to mention that it was Crimean and non Volga Tatars who were genocided by Stalin).
http://politrada.com/dossier/persone/id/3949
“I’m sure the Russians wouldn’t mind such a course of action, because they are experts in expelling populations.”
It’s always so Old Testament with you, habby.
Meanwhile, here’s that great American comedian:
“Obama: Russia ‘stealing the assets of the Ukrainian people’”
That’s his job
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/us-eu-sanctions-obama-russia-ukraine-crimea
DoNNyDarKo
Following your logic, let move 20 million Englishmen to Scotland for few weeks (just around Independence referendum time), move few British military divisions to boost Scotish spirit, and let them vote.
We will of course most likely have quite an opposite effect to the one that is expected otherwise.
Herbie,
I am quite grown up I think. Unlike you I lived under totalitarian authority and you have NO idea what it is like to live under constant threat of imprisonment or death. It is like in maximum security prison when you have to walk ONE line, one step left or right and you are shot dead.
This world I lived in was created by mad lefties. Some remnants of these lefties are quite visible in some of the people on this forum.
Nakba and Awda as they apply to Crimean Tatars plus some interesting stuff re crimea through the eyes of Israel Shamir.
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Autumn.htm
…
‘It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes’? Jo Stalin (possibly)
Decentralised, encrypted and secure referenda and elections now available to any group at minimal cost. Can we use ther genius of Blockchain / Bitcoin to find out what societies realy want.
https://www.ethereum.org/
This stuff may take a while to catch on, but it can’t be uninvented.
Might this be another game changer?
Uzbek
Nothing you’ve said there, I’m afraid, undermines my point that neo-cons, fascists, conservatives, and even liberals
“tend to disregard sanctity of life (and freedom for that matter) when it comes to the ideological domain”
You seem to think this applies to lefties alone. You’re simply wrong. Your analysis of this problem is not deep enough.
I do understand that your experience colours your view.
Karel (are you still there?)
I would be interested to know what your link on the other thread said. Something like “The Ukraine parliament agreed to an amnesty. The opposition was not included. It’s illegal”?
Can you throw any light on what is happening regarding the increase in UK jets to Lithuanian bases and personnel to Poland in the Polish newspapers? Are are the ordinary people aware of this in Poland?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26466250
Doug Scorgie
Kissinger is a war criminal indeed. Agree. But also very well known realist when it comes to the international relations. What is clear to me that there are some lefties who share his principal views on such matter. Not at least John Goss with his encouragement of balance of power – China and Russia keep check on US (or something similar that John has said somewhere above).
So what we have here is (I apologise in advance before church goers) well known war criminal and devoted leftie(s) preach about the same God but in slightly different languages. Just like Catholics and Anglicans do.
Once again apologies before church goers but I wanted for my argument heat their head straight.
Herbie
So far it is lefties who I argue with and trying to explain all complexity of Ukrainian crisis. When next time I argue with neo-cons I for sure will remind them of all their sins.
But even then, applying purely quantitative analysis it is mad lefties who killed more people around the world. I am not saying that far rightists or neo-cons are better, what I am saying is that simply more people died for (and because of) mad lefties where convinced that their course is right (or left).
“‘It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes’? Jo Stalin (possibly)” Sounds more like Karl Rove to me. Perhaps they were all at it. Your father thinks I’m a supporter of Stalin. Well I read “Khrushchev Remembers” when it first came out, and even he was not a supporter of Stalin.
Talking about Kissinger. Back in old days Putin has visited henry at his home. As far as I remember it was probably back in 2001. It is not well known what exactly he was talking with henry about but fact remains fact. It is probable that Putin was looking for some sort of inspiration. Just like own British UNfavorite Blair when visited museum home of Niccolo Machiavelli.
Oh my, yes, that Professor Francis Boyle, he’s always putting his foot in his mouth.
Israelis are genocidaires. How tactless. Keeping them like ‘drugged cockroaches in a bottle’ is not genocide, it’s entomology! ‘Putting them on a diet’ is very, very different than extermination as defined in Rome Statute Article 7.2.b, very different indeed.
But Mister Kuk, you forgot Boyle’s most tactless idea. So did Wikipedia!
http://warisacrime.org/node/24273
Imagine, rubbing everybody’s nose in the one time the US government used 10^13/g milled anthrax under its secure control for an attack on its domestic civilian population. So what! We were at war with the terrorists! Spike Bowman had to destroy the evidence! He was keeping us safe! Illegal biological weapons of mass destruction, illegal-schmillegal.
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2010/05/01/podcast-show-28/
Well at least he didn’t say it was Jews poisoning the well.
“‘It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes’?
It is old bloody uncle Jo. I confirm. In russian original is read as “Неважно как проголосуют, важно как посчитают.”
Note how slowly this thread is all going back to anti-israeli domain.
What a hell Russian intervention to Ukraine has to do with Israel?
Really?
Uzbek
You’re not making an argument about political systems. You’re just telling us what you like or don’t like.
Which is OK. We all do that. In fact that’s mostly all we do.
You’ve become remarkably westernised in your short time here.
Well done!
But Uz, That’s cause Mister Kuk always calls you on your hidden biases. Like when that nasty Professor Francis Boyle caught the US making its plan and conspiracy for war in Ukraine in breach of jus cogens and customary international law i.e. Article 8 bis, Mister Kuk just knew what that mean old anti-Semite was thinking. That mean old anti-Semite Francis Boyle was thinking that the Naval War College must be full of NSA JEws with their war games. I bet he won’t be happy till they game a pogrom there!
To your suggestion, Craig, that the Crimean vote should be at the end of the year: this, I’m afraid is a bit naive in the face of fast moving facts-on-the-ground in Kiev. You are assuming good intentions and well meaning people among the coup leaders and self-appointed “government”. But every indication is that, whatever they are, well-meaning is not part of it.
The Crimeans in fact have no choice if they want to strike for independence and/or joining Russia. There is a need for speed, given the plans by the Kiev puppet government (junta, if you wish) to move towards Nato ASAP. There was already an action in that direction and there is hardly any objective party out there who doesn’t see what the regime-change plan was about.
The difference between Russia and the West is that crimea is an existential problem for Russia as Putin sees all too clearly. But for the West, it’s all just a “game of thrones”.
I do understand that there are well meaning parties out in the west, as there are in Russia. Unfortunately, the well-meaning group is not the one making the power plays.
Uzbek in UK @10.36
Thanks for your clarification; I read your link, courtesy of google translate; it contains a good deal more biographical info than his wikipedia entry, but still no real evidence that he’s a ‘collaborator’.
He is apparently a ‘Volga’ Tatar and not a Crimean Tatar- are the ethnic linguistic and cultural differences between the 2 groups greater or lesser than the equivalent differences between Uzbeks in Uzbekistan, and their compatriots in Afghanistan ? Or is it just that one Tatar group was uprooted by Stalin while the other group was left alone (insofar as Stalin could leave anyone unhindered) ?
If the Tatars in these different locations differ more than their Uzbek counterparts, please outline what these greater points of difference actually are, beyond the fact that only the Crimeans were deported by Stalin.
I certainly don’t presume that’they all look the same’ but would appreciate your thoughts, as you clearly think the distinction between the two groups is important
Has this somehow missed the radar of the public?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h79v9uirLY
Old Mark
It is too long history of division to explain here in details. The key facts is that Crimean Tatars became part of Russian Empire the latest of all tatars while Volga tatars became part of Russia the first.
Most of Crimea Tatars are Muslims while some Volga tatars are christians. Forced into become christians by Ivan the terrible (infamous Cross or Sword).
The fact is that Volga Tatars are Russians by citizenship (and most of them in their minds) and most of them are loyal to Kremlin. They (by centuries) have been denied their culture, language and heritage. In most of their minds their ancestors were barbarians who were modernised by Russians when Ivan took over Kazan. Although there was some cultural and religious revival since Eltcin’s era, this has been backtracked when Putin started to build vertical of power. He did not want to neglect Tatars to allow them to develop into Chechens sort of nationalists.
With regards to Crimea Tatars, since joining Russian empire in 18 century there have always been resistance drive against Russians. It resulted in repressive policies towards them from czarists and then communist governments in Russsia. There is a lot of similarities between Crimea Tatars in Chechens in fact (drop Russian terrorist propaganda). Both resistant to Russian rule and both (despite genocidal deportation) kept their resistant spirit live.
Herbie
I think you need to read my post more carefully mate (in response to this and on other Ukrainian crisis related thread). All I have been doing is criticising political system and how wrong history have been to some submitted by Russians and here you shoot me with your silver bullet.
Of course I feel you want me to join ranks and start prising Mr Putin for his stance against ‘morally corrupted’ west. But since it was me who lived under Russian hegemony and not you, I have my reservation just as yet to sing prises to yet another wave of Russian Chauvinism.
TO ALL -FROM THE “ANGRY ARAB…” BLOG:-
US versus Russia: for the record
US is outraged that Russia is using fake excuses to (possibly) invade Ukraine.
US used a variety of fake excuses to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, and a whole bunch of other countries where it is waging covert wars.
US is outraged that the Russia is planning uncredible referendum in the Crimea to legitimize its rule.
US conducted a whole bunch of bogus referenda in Iraq and Afghanistan to legitimize its occupation there.
US is outraged that Russia is relying on puppets in Ukraine to further its interests.
US established puppet regimes to further its interests.
US is outraged that Russia is invoking “national security” to interfere in the Ukraine, its neighbor.
US invaded countries 10,000 miles away from its shore in the name of national security.
US media are saying that Putin is crazy.
Well, US elected George W. Bush twice. Enough said.
US is outraged that Russia claims that there are fascist and Nazi groups active in Ukraine protests.
US claimed that it invaded Iraq because Al-Qa`idah was active in Iraq, when in fact there was no evidence whatsoever that Al-Qa`idah was ever present in Iraq until the US invasion and occupation. Of course, there is evidence that there are fascist and Nazi groups active in Ukrainian protests (people quibble whether they are 10% or 30%).
US is outraged that Russia claims that it is worried about Russians in Crimea and Ukraine.
US in fact claimed that it needed to invade Iraq because Saddam was about to invade the US (look back at the speeches of George W. Bush).
US is outraged that Russia has a base in Crimea (and another in Tartus in Syria).
US has military bases in more than 130 countries of the world.
US is invoking international law in its argument against Russia.
US mocked international law and organizations when it invaded Iraq.
US claimed that Russia flew Russians to Crimea to bid its cause there.
US flew a whole bunch if Iraqi exile groups and Afghan exile groups to further its occupation causes there.
US claims that Ukraine should decide its destiny without outside interference. This one is too funny to comment on.
“US versus Russia…”
Not one word of which justifies Putin’s aggression.
Hullo Courtenay….
Kool post there… Its all just Fkn Surreal…. the utter Hypocrisy… Spewing forth from the rabid warmongers…. And their Bitch media $%*£%&#$’s
A good Piece Hear…. by Felicity Arbuthnot
” The delusional and mind stretching hypocrisy of Western leaders and spokespeople regarding the outcome of external meddling in the Ukraine increasingly mirrors King George 111 whose: “life and reign were marked by a series of military conflicts involving his kingdoms, much of the rest of Europe, and places farther afield in Africa, the Americas and Asia …”
He also, of course, lost America, accused of having: “plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people”, a mantle America’s settlers seamlessly took over, first against the indigenous population, before moving further afield in 1798 – ceaselessly ongoing. History taught Britain nothing either, except to slavishly become a snarling, yapping lap dog in the very expensive, detrimental trans-Atlantic “special relationship.”
George was finally diagnosed with recurrent – and eventually permanent – mental illness. Perhaps delusion can too easily become the price of power.
“You just don’t go invading another country on completely phony pretexts. It’s really 19th century behaviour in the 21st century”, said Secretary of State John Kerry, slamming Russia for: “invading another country on completely trumped up pretext.” He, UK Prime Minister David Cameron and Foreign Secretary William Hague, were, of course cheerleaders for illegally invading Iraq on “completely trumped up pretext.”
Kerry rounded off 4th March with: “Freedom would never be achieved by bullets and provocation.”
Think Panama, Grenada, Yugoslavia – lawless Kosovo carved out of Serbia – Afghanistan, funding the foreign organ eaters, beheaders and hand choppers of Syria in order to “violate the sovereignty”, years of threatening Iran – and, and, and.
David Cameron, having taken his orders from Washington, spoke to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande stating they had agreed to: “speak with one voice and send a clear message to Russia that its actions in Ukraine were completely unacceptable”, there would be “costs and consequences” for Russia which had violated: “the sovereignty and territorial integrity of another country.”
William Hague, in Kiev to embrace an entirely illegitimate administration some of whom are photographed using Nazi arm gestures, said of Russia: “The world cannot just say it is OK, in effect, to violate the sovereignty of another nation in this way” and Russia’s actions and support of the Crimean region could not be allowed to become the: “normal way to behave in international affairs.”
President Obama, in charge of Gulag Guantanamo, in contravention of his electoral vow to close it, personally ordering drone strikes on individuals, funeral gatherings, wedding parties, farmers, child wood gatherers and villages from Pakistan to Yemen, Afghanistan to Somalia. Obama, also involved in the destruction of Libya, thus party to the appalling assassination of the country’s Leader and the assassination of someone purported to be Osama bin Laden in an illegal incursion in to Pakistan, has charged that President Putin is “on the wrong side of history.”
Nicholas Burns, former Undersecretary of State under George W Bush and former US Ambassador to NATO accused: “Obviously Putin has won the Crimea through brute force.” Well no, apart from a few shots in the air on the 4th March, not a shot has been fired, unlike the slaughterhouses generated by various “international coalitions” – and Russia has a legal agreement for anchorage of its Black Sea fleet there until 2042. In Sevastopol, where the fleet is based, much of the population in fact have Russian passports.
America of course has nine hundred bases in one hundred and fifty three countries.
by Felicity Arbuthnot
Dandelion Salad
London, England
March 6, 2014
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/
Don’t ignore the Spell Checker thingy…
The above piece….is but a section of a fuller article BTW.
@Craig @ 12:45 6 March
Interesting to see that the ‘possibility’ of there having been snipers on the insurgents side; but only in the context that there were unquestionably snipers on the Yanukovych government side.
Until the Ashton telecon, it was treated as self-evident that the Yanukovych security services were responsible for the snipers; following it – well Oh dear how do we counter that is the question/order of the day.
It is further confirmation of the syndrome that I have been pointing to ad-nauseam – damage limitation in support of the over-arching UK-US-NATO position.
Why, WHY I want to know, can Craig not concede the possibility that the snipers were from one side only, and that it may NOT have been Yanukovych? Note that I am only asking to MAY here, just an exploration of the evidence from a disinterested prespective rather than a transparently partisan effort at damage limitation.
The reason I suggest is self-evident: viz, to admit to such a possibility is just tooo destructive of one’s world view. Just as to admit to the mere POSSIBILITY that 9-11 was and remains not what it seems is too scary
Meanwhile everyone here runs round and round in circles with the trivia. Refusal to acknowledge that bloody gigantic elephant in the room it seems is a perennial human defense mechanism against nasty viscous reality.
For anyone interested I’ve precis’d more info into the Wikispooks page and would welcome help in fleshing it and other stuff out further – some here will be delighted to know it includes stuff about the Joooo’s – Oh dear – yet another elephant.