I had fairly well concluded that the most likely cause was a fire disrupting the electrical and control systems, when CNN now say the sharp left turn was pre-programmed 12 minutes before sign off from Malaysian Air Traffic control, which was followed fairly quickly by that left turn.
CNN claim to have this from an US official, from data sent back before the reporting systems went off. It is hard to know what to make of it: obviously there are large economic interests that much prefer blame to lie with the pilots rather than the aircraft. But if it is true then the move was not a response to an emergency. (CNN went on to say the pilot could have programmed in the course change as a contingency in case of an emergency. That made no sense to me at all – does it to anyone else?)
I still find it extremely unlikely that the plane landed or crashed on land I cannot believe it could evade military detection as it flew over a highly militarized region. Somewhere there is debris on the ocean. There have been previous pilot suicides that took the plane with them; but the long detour first seems very strange and I do not believe is precedented. However if the CNN information on pre-programming is correct, and given it was the co-pilot who signed off to air traffic control, it is hard to look beyond the pilots as those responsible for whatever did happen. In fact, on consideration, the most improbable thing is that information CNN are reporting from the US official.
Could be relevant ?
ATSB Report
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ao-2009-027.aspx
Subsequent to the occurrence involving VH-EBF, similar windshield overheating events in other Airbus A330 and A320 aircraft were reported. The aircraft manufacturer’s technical examination of those windshields concluded that contact between the braided wires within the terminal block, as well as the unintended migration of the PR1829 sealant had probably combined to trigger the reported events.
Safety action from the aircraft manufacturer included a program to identify and replace all windshields that had been produced using the PR1829 polysulfide sealant within the electrical connector terminal block assembly. That program was initiated in early 2010 and extended to the replacement of approximately 1,500 units within the world-wide Airbus fleet. The ATSB have been advised that due to limited fleet-wide completion of the windshield replacement program, the European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) is considering the implementation of an Airworthiness Directive (AD) that will require all European operators of applicable Airbus aircraft to comply with the Airbus windshield replacement program.
And another in 2011 (the above was a JetStar operated aircraft in 2009)
Incident: Qantas A332 enroute on Mar 23rd 2011, fire in cockpit
By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Sep 12th 2011 12:53Z, last updated Monday, Sep 12th 2011 12:53Z
The ATSB have released their Bulletin reporting that the crew noticed a smell in the cockpit and cabin when the aircraft was enroute at FL390 about 365nm northwest of Cairns. The crew actioned the checklists for smoke/fumes/avionics in an attempt to minimise the smell, cabin crew confirmed the smell had reduced.
Following the smell and some arcing from the left hand windshield hearter a small flames became visible from the bottom left corner of the captain’s windshield. The flight crew donned their oxygen masks and discharged the cockpit’s BCF fire extinguisher successfully putting the flame out. An ECAM message “A.ICE L WSHLD HEAT” followed prompting the crew to action the relevant checklist prompting the crew to press the reset button for the window heat computer. About 20 minutes later another ECAM message “L WINDOW HEAT” occurred, although the crew actioned the relevant checklist 4 more events of arcing and flames from the bottom left corner of the captain’s windshield occurred over the next 6 minutes, all of which were extinguished by the crew.
The operator’s maintenance advised the probe window heat should be de-selected although this was no guarantee the heating would be de-powered. The crew therefore decided to divert to Cairns reporting technical issues and extinguished fires on board. The aircraft landed safely in Cairn about 50 minutes after the first smell.
The operator had already assigned the windshield for replacement according to an Airbus Service Bulletin, that required replacement as soon as spares become available. Following the event the windshield and the number one window heat computer were replaced.
The ATSB annotated that the windshield replacement program, released following five windshield heat connector overheat events, was well ahead of permitted time, completion within the operator’s fleet to be completed by September 2011 with the SB requiring replacement until March 2012.
AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVE
Windows – Fixed Windows / Windshield Heating Connectors –
Inspection / Replacement
(SB) A330-56-3009
The below is dated 21 OCT 2013
Several operators reported cases of burning smell and/or smoke in the cockpit
during cruise phase leading in some cases to diversion. Findings have shown
that the cause of these events is the burning of the Saint-Gobain Sully (SGS)
windshield connector terminal block.
This condition, if not corrected, could significantly increase the flight crew
workload which would, under some flight phases and/or circumstances
constitute an unsafe condition.
To address this unsafe condition, Airbus published 3 different Service Bulletins
(SB) and EASA issued AD 2011-0242 (later corrected) which required the
identification of the installed windshields and replacement of the affected part.
Since issuance of that AD, a new occurrence in service led Airbus to identify a
new batch of affected parts.
For the reasons described above, this AD retains the requirements of EASA AD
2011-0242, which is superseded, and requires identification and replacement of
the additionally identified windshields.
So that’s “two” A320’s “on fire” at “cruise altitude”….. one in 2009 and one in 2011.
With others (5) noted as “having had issues”.
Had the Egypt Air aircraft had it’s windscreen inspected/replaced ?
Cauterets
helicopter crash in South of FRANCE
Cauterets
Parc national des Pyrénées, just South of Lourdes
http://news.sky.com/story/1699395/four-killed-in-french-police-helicopter-crash
Four FRENCH police officers were killed in a helicopter crash in the Hautes-Pyrénées.
MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Four police officers were killed in a helicopter crash in the Hautes-Pyrénées, a department in southwestern France, the country’s Interior Ministry announced.
“Bernard Cazeneuve, the minister of Interior has learned with infinite sadness of the death this morning in the Hautes-Pyrénées of four servicemen of the National Gendarmerie,” the ministry said in a Friday press release.
The cause of the crash remains unknown.
“While participating in an exercise in the massif of Vignemale, the helicopter in which they [officers] were travelling crashed in circumstances that remain to be established,” the interior ministry said.
According to local authorities, the wreckage of the helicopter has been found and a crisis unit has been activated in connection with the crash.
FRENCH President Francois Hollande has expressed condolences to the families of the victims.
http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160521/1040010758/france-helicopter-crash-kills.html#ixzz49HpvRKW7
My bad !
They’re A330’s
But the directive seems to cover the Airbus product A330 and A320.
Apparently it’s the sealant used ( PR1829 ).
“Subsequent to the occurrence involving VH-EBF, similar windshield overheating events in other Airbus A330 and A320 aircraft were reported”.
Most certainly “cross fleet” checks required.
Jame’s if you think this is something pertaining to the crash you should take it over to pprune or Jeff Wise or somewhere that can check it out, Q might have some feedback I wouldn’t have a clue .
Pink…..
Pprune’s won’t be interested.
It’s a pretty bizarre place. There aim is almost to “protect” the airline industry. They have an agenda.
My post was removed.
It was later posted by another. His was also later deleted.
These are “official” directives.
And they refer to 5 other (minor) incidents.
Plus 19 other aircraft in the Airbus offering were “picked up”.
The thing is, both Egypt and France point to “terrorism”.
And yet both have a “vested interest” in it being “a bomb onboard”.
A “bomb” on a “pressurised aircraft” would have a devastating effect, even though it may be “small”.
The fact that “it ruptures” means the “pressurisation” does the job for you. It would simply tear it apart.
This aircraft “flew on”. In fact it manoeuvred
If it was “a fire ignited by electrical an fault”, then it has happened it has happened “very fast”. And that’s odd.
Even with “smoke and fumes” a call (radio) could be made.
I have one instance were by there was a “potential” “fire onboard”.
It scares you…but you do have “time”.
You smell it (in my case) first. Then “alarms” go off (as in lights and a chime).
Contrary to popular belief…. you DO NOT reset the circuit breakers (some pilot do this and it’s wrong). If you have a problem and alarms, resetting the CB’s has just made the whole thing worse. It has “popped” and it has popped for a reason. By “reconnecting” (attempting to) the circuit, will/could cause major problems.
Planes don’t just “fall out of the sky”…. but they do, if they have a problem. A “bomb” isn’t the only problem you have onboard. You have a “huge amount” of “electrics”.
MS804 may have released it had “a problem”.
It may have tried to solve this problem.
It may have “made a call” stating it has a problem.
Then…and only then, it may have “tried” to “get down” and “out of the way” of other traffic.
If that is the “sequence” of events, then it is “highly likely” there was a “fire onboard”.
Probably detected by “smoke and fumes” and by the sensors.
There is no “fire suppression” in the avionics compartment (for obvious reasons), if you have a “runaway fire” in that area, you are pretty much “to yourself”. And you will lose systems.
The “fault” previously described, can give rise to a “runaway fire”. In one of the cases, it had to be extinguished twice.
But…. it was detected and extinguished. The aircraft landed safely.
Say the fire did “alot of damage” before it was “put out”. Say it couldn’t be “put out”. What then ?
Hopefully a speedy, honest and open investigation. Hopefully “the truth”. Hopefully.
RIP the passengers and crew involved.
Thoughts and prayers to the loved ones effected.
If this was avoidable, it is beyond tragic.
Where are these engines actually manufactured?
V2527-A5 110.31 24,800 4.8 : 1 32.8 : 1 1.613 3.2 2,359 1993 Airbus A319-133, A320-232, A320-233
Pilot of doomed MS804 jet spoke with Egyptian air traffic controllers ‘for several minutes about smoke in cabin before crash’ – despite official claim that there was no distress call
The Daily Mail
What about the windshield connector over-heating and fire-source problem (WHC = Window Heating Computer)? Far too many windscreen-connector in-flight cockpit fires have occurred. MH370 and the current EgyptAir 804 may have suffered this fate. In 2009, following the in-flight fire on an Airbus 330-202, the Australian Safety Authority ATSB, after extensive investigation, advised excellent action to mitigate this fundamental A320 and A330 manufacturing problem, and advised the European agencies; eg: CASA, BEA, EASA, etc. The overheated windshield connectors is a long-running saga predating 2009 by many years. Its very questionable whether remedial work has been carried out on all affected planes and there is question on the authenticity, and originality, of the parts being used. Isn’t it time for all A320 and 330s to be recalled for windshield connector inspection and where defective pending effective replacement. The industry needs a shake up.
The heating of the Boeing 777’s windshield is automatic. Does anyone know if it can be shut off by manual override in the event of a problem, or would this involve the pilot doing a shutdown and reconnect of other systems connected to the same panel? Which systems would be part of the same panel?
http://m.aviationweek.com/business-aviation/when-windshields-fail
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Egypt’s Public Prosecutor asked his French counterpart to hand over data on the crashed EgyptAir plane, from during its stay at Charles de Gaulle airport and until the moment it left French airspace, according to a statement made on Monday.
http://www.france24.com/en/20160524-egypt-looks-france-last-hours-egyptair-flight-804
are still trying to locate the “black box”
24 May 2016
Now THIS is what you’re dealing with !
Quote…..
An Egyptian forensic official says human remains from the crashed EgyptAir flight indicate there had been an explosion on board.
The official is part of the Egyptian investigative team and has personally examined the remains at a Cairo morgue.
He said all 80 pieces brought to Cairo so far are small and that “there isn’t even a whole body part, like an arm or a head”.
The official added that “the logical explanation is that it was an explosion” but no traces of explosives have been found yet.
End quote…..
Spot the problem ?
The “expert” says, “it looks like there was an explosion onboard”.
Then states “…but NO traces of explosives have been found yet”.
Has “terrorism” become the Number One “get out of jail free card” these days ?
The Twin Towers fell down….terrorism did it
Build 7 fell over….terrorism did it
Plane crash….terrorism did it
Accidentally bumped my car in the supermarket car park….terrorism did it
Forgot to turn the iron off before going out….terrorism did it
It rained last night…..terrorism did it
RIP The Investigation, if this guy represents “The Experts”.
Find the aircraft, look, analyse the debris, prepare the evidence, make a conclusion.
Seems like we’ve skipped a few parts of the recognised process again…
…..and have gone for “terrorism did it” again !
Q
Sitting on the tarmac, on a hot day, you COULD “over heat” your windscreen.
There is a process to “reset” the system.
On the ground, there is “low power” used. Up at cruise, there “more power” used.
It’s automatic.
In previous incidents, there has been alarms, alerts and even (I suspect) CB’s blown, but it appears “power” still was sent through the system (there has been a re ignition in one case and in an other several “burnt out” parts were found).
So…in short (and I’m not sure), I’d say “No, the system is fully automatic in-flight”.
Now the “media” is reporting other media !
French media say “the plane COULD have spoken to Ciaro”.
All other media report “the French media say the plane DID speak to Ciaro”.
This is now becoming “bullshit on bullshit”.
And meanwhile the Egyptians and French continue to run the investigation… into a French built aircraft owned by the state owned airline of Egypt.
Okay ….it was a bomb. Box ticked. Move on !
RIP The Investigation !
They know within a Hundred K square where the Egyptair Airbus crashed
so how come they can’t “hear” the black boxes
or is this going to be another never ending mysterious disappearance?
Has a sixth MH370 fragment been found? Probably
As high seas delay the closing stages of the seafloor search for the wreckage of MH370, yet another promising piece of potential debris from the missing airliner has been found in Mauritius
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2016/05/25/sixth-mh370-fragment-found/
Jeff Wise has made a new post about Mauritius debris and Richard Cole has made a post about another new find on there.
http://jeffwise.net/2016/05/25/new-potential-mh370-debris-found-on-mauritius/#comments
Richard Cole
Posted May 25, 2016 at 10:47 AM
http://ionnews.mu/un-debris-suspecte-de-provenir-du-vol-mh370-retrouve-a-gris-gris-250516/
… and in Mozambique as well: all in all 5 new pieces
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/australianz/more-debris-with-possible-mh370-link-found-in-mauritius-mozambique-australia
Shelock that one has already been covered it’s an earlier photo taken of the RR part that was found, the guy who took it didnt realise for a time thats what it was it kinda threw the barnacle debate off track.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2014/aair/ae-2014-054/
Any suggestions about what could cause these black marks?
https://mobile.twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/735829349337862144
No Q I have only just seen the pics I expect there will be an inquest on twitter somewhere will check it out .
One thing to come out of this should be, the bleeps from the black boxes should be able to be detected from the bottom of the ocean.
@Q Have had a look around so far not seeing much other than the new photo’s JW has done an update it all seems quite quiet ATM.
http://www.france24.com/en/20160527-france-sends-underwater-probes-egyptair-search-zone
A French naval vessel was en route to the eastern Mediterranean on Thursday to join the hunt for black boxes from a crashed EgyptAir jet, equipped with three specialist probes from a French company recruited to accelerate the search.
The French air accident investigation agency, the BEA, said in a statement the Laplace ship left Thursday from Corsica for the zone of the crash, with two BEA investigators aboard.
Satellites Captured Doomed EgyptAir Jet’s Distress Signals
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-O7UM1W6TTDSP01-4G0VEQAKL7KN97VTSMJ7DCBS1V
NOAA picked up the ELT (distress transmission) at 0326(??)
The a/c lost “Secondary” contact at 0329(40)
Greek ATC contacted “Primary” after “Lost Contact”.
Already the story “unfolds” !
What “Lost Contact” ?
The transponder ? Or elements on playback of Primary radar ?
Of course….clarification is “not forth coming”.
I can only assume it was Secondary radar that lost contact at 0329(40)
So the transponder did not transmit after this time.
Why then did the ELT transmit ?
Manually activated ?
Impact ?
Dislodged or disturbed ?
0326(00) to 0329(40) is a long time
So is 0326(59) to 0329(40).
It still means the “incident” could be “anything”.
BUT a CONFIRMED signal (from NOAA) means that the a/c WAS in “distress” (an event of some kind had occurred) at or prior to 0326(00)
NOTE
An ELT can be manually activated.
Pulling “serious G’s” beyond the norm can activate the ELT (in my aircraft so I assume airliners)
Impact activates the ELT.
Standard SOP is “get off the airway before (during) actions to descend”, so a “90” degree turn (or less !) is required….depending “how the hell you’re damaged”.
Following that up with a “360”, I wouldn’t do. I’d just get “low” (if decompression and I was able to fly it).
Whatever happened… it was at or prior o the ELT transmission.
And that is “date stamped” to within a minute (but it will be known “when” by now)
This will be “LAST ATTEMPT TO LOOK FOR FLIGHT RECORDERS”
EU countries send high-tech equipment to locate EgyptAir black boxes
Several European countries including France have delivered high-tech equipment to Cairo to help look for the black boxes of EgyptAir’s MS804 flight. The equipment which is said to be capable of detecting signals from the black boxes was sent to the possible site of the crash. This will be the “last attempt” to look for the flight recorders as they have a limited battery life, sources at Egypt’s Aviation Ministry said. On Friday a naval ship also arrived to the site from France. EgyptAir MS804 with 66 passengers on board disappeared from radars while it was en route from Paris to Cairo. Later some of plane’s wreckage and passenger belongings and human remains were found in the Mediterranean.
from Russia Today
And the “sloppy” reporting continues.
The time of the ELT now becomes stated as fact…and the time is “02.36”.
The aircraft was lost at “02.29:33”.
So the “confirmed/official” timeline (using Cairo as “local”) is
02.26 ACARS transmits a series of error messages (x3)
02.27 ATHENS tries to contact the aircraft. ACARS continues to transmit fault messages (x1)
02.28 ACARS continues to transmit fault messages (x1)
02.29 ACARS continues to transmit fault messages (x1). The aircraft is lost from Secondary radar (02.29:33)
02.36 The aircraft’s ELT transmits (two signals bursts).
Since there were no more transmissions from the aircraft (ACARS or Transponder) after 02.29:33 until the ELT unit transmitted at 02.36, it has to be assumed the aircraft was “in considerable distress and coming down” for some “6 minutes plus whatever seconds”.
Therefore, from “02.26” to “02.36” (10 minutes), from the beginning of the incident to the impact.
Including he “90 degree” and the “360” manoeuvres (which I assume were discovered once they had analysed the “tapes” from playbacks of Primary radar).
A “sudden event” leading to “multiple alarms” and an “unrecoverable” aircraft.
You can see were the “it was a bomb” theory comes in.
Although other “sudden/catastrophic events” cannot be ruled out.
If it was “a bomb”, France (Paris) seems to be taking things “not so seriously”, as it would indicate a failing in their “airport” of “airside” security !
Re MH370. If the ALL the “so far recovered” bits of aircraft (washed up) were found by “accident” by either holidaymakers, dog walkers, other random people….and a tourist beach cleaning team THEN why the hell isn’t there an operation underway to “SEARCH” all beaches and the coastline for other “bits” of aircraft ???
That is a good point James, why has all the debris from MH37 been located by holidaymakers and local beach bums, why not the military?
I still think the debris flow hails from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Ocean_Territory
I think all concerned would want it to be an accident not a bomb. France because they would be blamed for letting it happen, Egypt because it would hit their economy and the Muslim Brotherhood because when the passenger list was published the majority were not European tourists but Sunni Muslims returning home to Egypt.
Fred…
I applause you. You have got it…..in part.
…because “Who knows ?”.
And there’s the thing.
Signals likely to have come from the black boxes of the EgyptAir plane that crashed last month have been detected, Egyptian investigators say.
A statement said they were picked up by a French vessel searching the Mediterranean Sea.
BBC
Malaysian immigration officers sacked for deliberately disabling passport controls at airport
://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-01/malaysian-immigration-officers-disabled-airport-checks/7465448
Of course, nothing will be found by the official search. We have:
Discredited Maldive islanders who witnessed a plane in trouble.
The fire extinguisher that was found, but also discredited by officials.
The woman on a sailing trip who saw something. Again, not taken seriously.
The pilgrim returning to Malaysia who saw something and was not taken seriously.
The oil rig worker who saw something and was not taken seriously, then got fired.
People searching online satellite images: each and every discovery discredited and dismissed.
Every witness who has reported anything unusual about passenger jets in the sky that night has been discredited and discarded by officials. They have even discredited inanimate objects. What is going on?
They don’t want us to know any more about what happened to MH370, which makes me think it was something very bad, involving corruption in Malaysia at multiple levels. I think they know exactly what happened and where MH370 is. The charade has gone on too long, and Australia seems to have a vested interest in perpetuating it.
The only way we’ll ever know anything is when too many beachcombers find too much debris. Maybe a political opponent of the corrupt government will dig up dirt and post it on the internet. This would be very risky for them.
So, what is the list under these circumstances: MH370 shot down by accident during a miitary exercise, MH370 shot down intentionally after a lack of communication by the pilots, MH370 carrying a deadly cargo that was shot down over the ocean to prevent great harm to people on the ground, MH370 up to no good at Diego Garcia, Diego Garcia shooting down MH370 after the pilots did not respond — the list goes on and on. Add your own.
A cover-up is a conspiracy. No one can dispute that the government of Malaysia and others have done everything in their power to cover up the events surrounding the disappearance of MH370.
Good luck to the beachcombers. Malaysia doesn’t understand that this will never go away.
@Q No jewels this time 🙂
Mystery of Andes plane crash that killed 29 may finally be solved
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mystery-andes-plane-crash-killed-8117278
Another Boeing 777 had an engine problem. Air China sent a replacement plane to Winnipeg, Canada to pick up the passengers.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/manitoba/air-china-emergency-landing-winnipeg-airport-1.3617092
They might not be as excited as the TV commercial with the gag line, “We’re going to Winnipeg.” (Man gets on the wrong flight, thinking he’s on his way to Hawaii.)
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.ibtimes.co.uk/passengers-crew-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh1-injured-aircraft-hits-turbulence-1563795?client=ms-android-motorola#
Some 378 passengers survived this one. What will the airline spin from this incident?
From the article:
“During the flight over the Bay of Bengal the passenger seatbelt light was switched on due to air turbulence. Due to a brief moment of severe turbulence some passengers suffered minor injuries.”
“Medical crew and Malaysia Airlines senior management met the aircraft on arrival in Kuala Lumpur International Airport (KLIA). A small number of affected passengers and crew have been treated by medical officers. Malaysia Airlines has assisted the 378 passengers and crew onboard MH1 and sincerely apologises for any inconvenience caused by this weather event which was entirely beyond our control,” the statement read.
The missile that killed 298 when it brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3630002/Pictured-Russian-missile-killed-298-brought-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-17-Ukraine.html#ixzz4Apaqxbhj
The missile part was recovered from the crash site by prosecutors conducting the criminal investigation into the downing of the aircraft in July 2014.
The finding adds further weight to the Dutch inquiry that said the Malaysia Airlines jet was shot down by a BUK missile fired from rebel-held Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-36478443
Helicopter operator CHC has said it will no longer fly Super Puma H225s from its Aberdeen base unless customers specifically want them.
The announcement came six days after European aviation safety officials extended the grounding of the AIRBUS Super Pumas amid concerns about its gearbox.
Signs of metal fatigue were found in components after a crash off Norway that killed 13 people in April.
CHC said the H225 decision was “commercially driven”.
FRANCE deploys second search ship in hunt for EgyptAir black boxes
http://www.france24.com/en/20160609-france-deploys-second-search-ship-hunt-egyptair-black-boxes
A second ship equipped with specialist search devices will join the hunt for the “black box” flight recorders and the wreckage of an EgyptAir jet on Friday, the head of France’s air-accident investigation agency said on Thursday.
A French naval supply vessel picked up a signal from one of the two recorders on June 1, and Egypt has chartered a second vessel operated by Mauritius-based Deep Ocean Search, equipped with sonar equipment and an underwater vehicle.
Remi Jouty, director of the BEA air accident agency, which is advising Egypt on the underwater search, said the first ship continued to pick up locator signals from the first recorder, whose location had been narrowed to within 1 to 2 kilometres.
Pending the search for the two recorders, the Egyptian-led investigation is still “very far” from understanding why Flight 804 crashed into the Mediterranean on May 19, killing all 66 people on board, Jouty told aviation journalists in Paris.