I had fairly well concluded that the most likely cause was a fire disrupting the electrical and control systems, when CNN now say the sharp left turn was pre-programmed 12 minutes before sign off from Malaysian Air Traffic control, which was followed fairly quickly by that left turn.
CNN claim to have this from an US official, from data sent back before the reporting systems went off. It is hard to know what to make of it: obviously there are large economic interests that much prefer blame to lie with the pilots rather than the aircraft. But if it is true then the move was not a response to an emergency. (CNN went on to say the pilot could have programmed in the course change as a contingency in case of an emergency. That made no sense to me at all – does it to anyone else?)
I still find it extremely unlikely that the plane landed or crashed on land I cannot believe it could evade military detection as it flew over a highly militarized region. Somewhere there is debris on the ocean. There have been previous pilot suicides that took the plane with them; but the long detour first seems very strange and I do not believe is precedented. However if the CNN information on pre-programming is correct, and given it was the co-pilot who signed off to air traffic control, it is hard to look beyond the pilots as those responsible for whatever did happen. In fact, on consideration, the most improbable thing is that information CNN are reporting from the US official.
This really belongs in the other thread but is related to this one.
I was reading metabunk debunking Georesonance and came across a comment on page three you will soon spot it .
I seem to remember talk of an arms cache way back and given that SAH had a tazer and given his wife’s job could he be doing something to locate the cache for someone ,he was supposed to have taken computers with ‘work’ on,I have not thought it through just wondered if remote sensing might be something SAH might know about,any thoughts ?
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-exploration-company-georesonance-believes-it-may-have-found-mh370.3558/page-3
Here’s yet another theory:
The Taliban captured a US command and control centre for drones in Afghanistan. They sold it to China who were transporting it home via Malaysia when the US captured it back.
The author doesn’t mention where he got the information from so we’ll just have to take his word for it. Or not.
http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=33&d=924
@Pink: Saad al-Hilli definitely knew something about remote sensing. Remember that he worked for Surrey Satellites’s spinoff company DMC (Disaster Monitoring Constellation) International Imaging in France? China is one of their major clients.
http://earsc.org/members/dmc-international-imaging
Free Inmarsat should solve the problem of disappearing aircraft:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/mh370-satellite-tracking-company-inmarsat-to-offer-free-service-for-all-airlines-in-future-9353507.html
@Q a threat to the ideals of an old soldier would make sense of the ferocity of the attack and the use of an old gun .
Q
The “final authority” is essentially with the “Pilot In Command” of the aircraft.
Example, the classic case of a Russian aircraft that was involved in a mid air collision. Essentially the “PIC/PF” ignored the TCAS system which was telling him to climb and went if the Air Traffic Control who (wrongly) told him to descend.
There were other factors in the crash (work being carried out on part of the radar system, over worked controller due to “bad management”.)
However the Russian PIC ignored his TCAS system and went with the “authority” of the controller, which in this case was wrong. Culturally the Russian pilots were “programmed” to “obey”.
@James 9:23 am: Thank you. “Work being carried out on part of the radar system” is also intriguing, as I believe that is a possibility with MH370, too. The radar at Subang was said to have been faulty from the get-go: was it ever fixed? The new radar at KLIA2, which opened less than a week ago: was it faulty, too, having the same source as the Subang radar? Was air traffic control disrupted while KLIA2 was being readied for operation? Who was controlling the skies during this time? Were new air traffic controllers being trained in preparation for the new airport’s opening?
If any of this was going on, it might explain the perceived need by the Malaysian government to doctor the conversations between the controllers and pilots of MH370. Are Malaysian pilots trained to obey, too?
How long does it take three navy ships to search 500 square meters of water for a missing plane? Not a trick question.
Q
What IS clear is….it was Vietnam that questioned the Malaysians with regard to the missing aircraft (why it had not contacted them).
Malaysian ATC asked the airline (who said that it was “over Cambodia”).
Later when Vietnam AGAIN questioned Malaysian ATC re MH370 and only then was the aircraft considered “missing” (even so, Malaysian ATC continued to call the aircraft AND did not inform the Search & Rescue Teams until much later on)
All in all…. very (very) bizarre.
Japan is scrambling fighter jets 2.2 times per day, hitting a a 24-year record. This amounted to 810 scrambles for the year ending in March, 2013:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/Japan-fighters-scramble-more-to-see-off-Chinese-Russians
Meanwhile, we are supposed to believe that the RMAF in Butterworth does nothing. It’s getting easier to believe.
BUT…
…considering the “balls up” Malaysian ATC appear to be, does that contribute in to what happened at 35,000 feet ?
Just a wee note.
Was FL350 going to be their final altitude ?
Flight Aware record previous FL’s of this route by MAS(MH370) as FL390.
IF this was to be their “cruise” then…there are a few questions about the “data” we are being told me thinks.
A climb higher would not be “strange”. Only the turn West would be.
A turn West and a “descend now” would be normal when in distress.
Another thing. JACC in Oz are starting to “put the feelers out” for saying only “two” pings from the Black (ORANGE !) Boxes are relevant now !
Q
…we may be coming at this from the “same” but different angle !!!!
Pretty good summary of Israeli/Iranian connections with MH370 and its shadow 777.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/05/09/mh370-new-evidence-shows-additional-israeli-connections/
Exciting to read.
“Anonymous May 3, 2014 at 9:21 PM: I have been an engineer for 40 years and I’ll only say this. I have seen many cases where a small, incorrect assumption at the beginning of a message becomes group think gospel, causing supposedly “iron clad” information, accepted and even peer reviewed by many to be completely false.”
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2014/03/how-did-inmarsat-really-find-flight.html
Nothing really new in above. One puzzling item (among many) is that the loop in the track, allegedly because the pilots, whoever they were, wanted to avoid Indonesian radar, is based on one “last known position” of MH370. Presumably this was some country’s radar. How did they know it was MH370 if the transponder was off?
If the loop to avoid Indonesia doesn’t exist and the plane took a more direct track, even if it followed the southern arc to the Indian Ocean, it would be much farther south than the search area.
@NR: I think this is why the families pushing for the raw data.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/MH370-Families-demand-release-of-raw-satellite-data/articleshow/34985983.cms
“In view of the lack of emergency locator transmitter activation and zero debris, we feel it is necessary that the data be subject to independent third-party review,” said Voice370, which claims to represents 800 family members so far.”
They aren’t impressed with the “Inspector Gadget” approach to the search for MH370 based on possible (increasingly “likely”) faulty data.
@James: “Same” but different angle is right. And that angle seems related to the families’ request for independent, third-party review of the raw data. The Malaysian government does not appear to be cooperating. It seems to me that Malaysia will not release this data until their hand is forced. And that, to me, means they’re hiding something critical to the understanding of what really went on. That also leads me to believe that they already know they’ve done something terribly wrong that contributed to the demise of MH370 and 239 souls. Criminals wiping down a crime scene — or bunglers covering up a bungle? What else can a faked cockpit-ATC voice recording be?
The bafflegab award for 2014 should go to Prime Minister Najib Razak of Malaysia.
““We didn’t get everything right,” he wrote in the signed article. “In the first few days after the plane disappeared, we were so focused on trying to find the aircraft that we did not prioritise our communications.”
http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/2014/05/confusion-delayed-mh370-search-effort/
Standards, regulations and guidelines mean nothing when they are not followed. He’s right about one thing: there was a failure to communicate.
Q
The one thing I can only say (as nobody knows what’s go on) is that “the Pilot Not Flying who handled the radio on the ground…. is not the same Pilot Not Flying who was handling the radio when the aircraft was airborne”. That is what I believe and I believe that because the “speech patterns” are completely different when “those two people” repeat the same phrase (Malaysian Three Seven Zero).
MAS say that the voice on the tape is that of the Capt. That’s what they say.
There are “TWO” things here that are important.
1. MAS released the “last words” from the aircraft prior to the transcript and the recording. That was a lie. That is proven.
2. Photographs of the TWO men that used “fake passports” which MAS released, both had the same “legs”. That is proven. Therefore they lied.
For “whatever reasons” MAS is “chasing to catch up”….and making a botch of it.
I believe that “tape” is also fake. Maybe from a previous flight that was performed by “MH370” in which the crew flew (at different times).
I am “sure” that MH370/08MAR took off from KUL and never reached PEK.
I am “sure” that the Capt and Co pilot were the assigned crew.
And that’s all I am sure of.
@Q
13 May, 2014 – 12:25 am
It beyond my ability to make sense of all the international intrigue I was still thinking local crime, the remote sensing seems like a good lead though don’t you think ,even if there is not a way I can think of to follow it up.
I am only sure of one thing, James: this is a massive coverup that is now coming unglued. Why would anyone need a coverup if there was nothing to hide?
The Prime Minister probably should have said, “We didn’t get anything right, not even the coverup.” They didn’t seem interested in looking for the plane during the several-hour gap at the beginning of the saga, when the chances of finding it would have been much better.
@Pink: Remote sensing is used to find all manner of secret things. That kind of knowledge can get a person killed.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11232602
“Anwar said he had personally authorised the installation of “one of the most sophisticated radar” systems in the world, based near the South China Sea and covering Malaysia’s mainland and east and west coastlines, when he was the country’s Finance Minister in 1994….
“Anwar said it was “not only unacceptable but not possible, not feasible” that the plane had not been sighted by the Marconi radar system immediately after it changed course. The radar, he said, would have instantly detected the Boeing 777 as it travelled east to west across “at least four” Malaysian provinces.
“Anwar said it was baffling the country’s air force had remained silent, and claimed it “should take three minutes under [standard operating procedure] for the air force planes to go. And there was no response”. He added: “We don’t have the sophistication of the US or Britain but we have the capacity to protect our borders.”
Instead of looking for missing planes, much time is spent going on witch hunts for “sodomists” and “fanatics”, and interviewing non-existent mango pickers about non-existent mangoes.
http://www.theborneopost.com/2014/04/25/klia2-control-tower-tallest-in-the-world-guinness/
“Azharuddin said the training of air traffic controllers for KLIA2 started as early as January, including theory and simulator training and 120 controllers were ready to operate at KLIA2 and KLIA.
“The 24-hour operation involves eight air traffic controllers on duty at any one time in the main control room.
“A total of 58 new posts have also been created to accommodate the additional work in the control tower,” he added.”
Some began training as early as January. That would mean no more than two months of experience from beginning to end by the time MH370 went missing. With 58 new controllers starting on the job at the same time, how safe were the skies near KLIA, KLIA 2 and Subang in early March 2014?
About one third of the air traffic controllers for KLIA2 were new on the job. The other two thirds we presume were experienced ATCs who had just recently trained on the new KLIA2 ATC systems.
It takes 2.5 years to train to become an ATC, according to this:
http://www.eurocontrol.int/articles/training-become-air-traffic-controller
I stand AMAZED that the Malay Govt have not fallen.
This is a cock up beyond all expectation.
Maybe why the “dick head” Barrack called in to see them.
Once flew out of KUL…and had a “bad time”.
No warnings…and straight into weather. Worst flight ever (dangerous).
KUL ATC are “amateur hour”. I expect their “SOP’s” are the same.
Bunch of w*nkers.
I was thinking about why it might be important to never find the black (orange) box for MH370 and the flight data it contains, or why it might be important to find the black box only after sea water has seriously degraded any information it contains.
Then it occurred to me: the highly-questionable and suspect recording of the so-called conversation between ATC and the pilots of MH370 is the clue.
The critical part of the equation is whatever really went on between the air traffic controllers and the pilots of MH370/9M-MRO.
This is what they don’t want us to know.
There were 178 air traffic controllers either brand new to the job, or brand new to the systems and equipment at KLIA2. Errors are most likely to occur when trainees are on the job without adequate experience and supervisors. If some of the experienced air traffic controllers were recruited from other airports in Malaysia during the training period, were those airports then adequately staffed? It seems highly likely that this pool of employees came from Subang/KLIA. Who has 120 air traffic controllers just sitting around waiting for jobs? If this human factor on the ground in the air traffic control towers caused or contributed to the disappearance of MH370, I think we have the answer for the coverup: unprecented legal liablility and the corresponding financial consequences that could cause the collapse of a nation. Repercussions from the international aviation regulators would pale in comparison.
We know that a Malaysian politician spoke out about faulty radar at Subang Airport, and that the new radar for KLIA2 was purchased from the same (alleged crony) supplier. We do not know if the problems at Subang were ever fixed. We do not know if the alleged problems with the same radar at KLIA2 were corrected before that radar went into use. Why is no one in the media taking a look at Subang, whose radar was so defective that air traffic controllers allegedly stopped using it? A busy modern airport with radar not being used — chilling!
Would politicians worldwide want the failure of a government in this part of the world right now, with growing tensions between China and nations in the region? Would people lose faith in the aviation industry as a whole if they knew at least one, and possibly two, busy airports did not used radar, or used radar that was so defective it was almost useless, or worse than nothing at all? This kind of irregularity would have the potential for disaster involving any airline or plane in the area. Where else in the world is this particular kind of radar in use?
Because it is important, here is a repeat of the link to the story of the alleged faulty radar at Subang/KLIA2 :
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/Nurul-Izzah-Faulty-radar-supplier-awarded-KLIA2-contract
The radar was developed by Selex Sistemi Integrati (SELEX), of Italy. It is now called Selex ES, after a merger with Selex Galileo and Selex Elsag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELEX_Sistemi_Integrati
The company has its roots with Raytheon. Homeland security is repeatedly mentioned at the wiki link, along with this: “SELEX Sistemi Integrati was the main European supplier of 3D long-range radar into the NATO area.” The company supplies systems for air, land and naval forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELEX_Galileo
BAE Avionics is mentioned at the Selex Galileo link, which redirects to Selex ES, although it has sold its share in the company.
“In August 2013, Selex provided an unarmed surveillance drone to the United Nations to be deployed in the Democratic Republic of Congo to monitor movements of armed groups in the region and to protect the civilian population more effectively.”
This company is inextricably linked to its military customers via the products it sells, like electronic warfare systems, advanced targeting systems, UAVs, etc.
Selex also supplies the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF)
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/selex-galileo-to-protect-malaysia39s-hawk-fleet-348841/
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Selex Galileo to protect Malaysia’s Hawk fleet
By: Craig Hoyle
London
Source:
13:05 22 Oct 2010
“Selex Galileo expects to receive a contract to equip the Royal Malaysian Air Force’s BAE Systems Hawk advanced jet trainer and light attack aircraft with a new radar warning receiver (RWR) system.
Named Seer, the self-protection equipment has been designed as a drop-in replacement for BAE’s Sky Guardian 200 RWR system, previously installed on platforms including the Hawk.”
More on Selex:
http://www.caat.org.uk/resources/companies/finmeccanica/selex.php
And yet the Selex radar system in Malaysia appears to have “lost” a Boeing 777-ER.
The Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) and Malaysian authorities were considering the Selex Falco UAV for purchase in 2010. For more on Selex drones, and crashes:
http://www.jetbrokerseurope.com/news/8917.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/un-drone-crash-congo_n_4600685.html
http://www.innercitypress.com/undrone1ladselex080513.html
Have we discussed the military exercise “Ops Pasir”? This three-month exercise concluded in April 2014.
http://www.theborneopost.com/2014/04/04/ops-pasir-tour-of-duty-ends-with-parade/
The 2012 “Ops Pasir” mentioned use of the MK ATB 2, JRCC’s UAV operation. The 2010 “Ops Pasir” used the ALUDRA UAV.
http://www.malaysiandefence.com/?p=711
“Hot paths” and the AludraII are mentioned here. The AludraII is definitely in operation as of 2011, patrolling the waters of Malaysia. Google translate can help.
For more on Malaysia’s joint venture with Pakistan to manufacture drones, and the Boeing Satellite Systems used by Malaysia:
http://www.nst.com.my/latest/malaysia-pakistan-to-jointly-manufacture-uav-satellites-1.209688
For more on the domestic drones by Composite Technology Research Malaysia (CTRM):
http://www.defencereviewasia.com/articles/195/Asian-region-UAV-capability-on-the-rise
How bizarre that the eyewitness account of a burning plane (MH370?) near an oil rig has led me to this article on “seabasing” by the Malaysian military, using decommissioned oil rigs:
http://www.malaysiandefence.com/?p=4425
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/state_news/news.php?id=1037882&cat=sbe
“He said the security forces was considering, among others, to set up a sea-based border guard post using oil platforms contributed by Petronas.
Abdul Rahim, who is also Kudat member of parliament, said the sea border guard post would act as a fast action base at the frontline which could be equipped with surveillance and counteraction capabilities.”
Compare Tim Akers’ and Michael Hoebel’s location maps to the location of Lahad Datu, Malaysia. Does anyone know where to find maps of Petronas oil platforms in the South China see, decommissioned and working?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614932/U-S-pilot-believes-hes-wreckage-missing-Malaysia-flight-searching-satellite-images.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky1B47tvxX0 at 2:43 and on.
“It would seem strange the Malaysian authorities have dismissed the area out of hand.”
Or would it, if the location could be traced back to a Petronas oil rig, decommissioned or working, with “surveillance and counteraction capabilities:?
“You have been given some time away from this discussion. You will be allowed back into this discussion in 5 day(s)”.
That is a “Pprunes” imposed “ban”.
Why…. ? Because me and another pilot agree that FL350 is not the cruise level from KUL to PEK
That is “kinda” important.
Compare this map of PETRONAS oil and gas wells to the locations pinpointed by Tim Akers and Michael Hoebel as possible MH370 debris sites:
http://www.2b1stconsulting.com/petronas-to-develop-marginal-fields-offshore-malaysia/
They’re everywhere. Knowing that PETRONAS has wells everywhere, possibly already being used as sea bases equipped with “surveillance and counteraction capabilities”, is a game-changer.
Tim Akers and Michael Hoebel need to know, and they need to look at their images to see whether any oil or gas wells (decommissioned or working) owned by PETRONAS are nearby.