By sending troops into the Ukraine, (others than those stationed there by agreement) Putin has broken international law. That does not depend on the Budapest Memorandum. It would be a breach of international law whether the Budapest Memorandum existed or not. The effect of the Budapest Memorandum is rather to oblige the US and the UK to do something about it.
The existence of civil disturbance in a country does not justify outside military intervention. That it does is, of course, the Blair doctrine that I have been campaigning against for 15 years, inside and outside government. Putin of course opposes such interventions by the West, in Iraq, Syria or Libya, but supports such interventions when he does them, as in Georgia and Ukraine. That is hypocrisy. There are elements on the British left who also oppose such interventions when the West does them, but support when Putin does them. You can see their arguments on the last comments thread: fascinatingly none of them have addressed my point about Putin’s distinct lack of interest in the principle of self-determination when it comes to Chechnya or Dagestan.
The overwhelming need now is to de-escalate the crisis. People rushing about in tanks and helicopters very often leads to violence, and here Putin is at fault. There was no imminent physical threat to Russians in the Crimea, and there is no need for all this military activity. Ukraine should file a case against Russia at the International Court of Justice; the UK and US, as guarantor states, can ask to be attached as guarantor states with an interest in the Budapest Memorandum . That will fulfil their guarantor obligations without moving a soldier.
The West is not going to provide the kind of massive financial package needed to rescue the Ukraine’s moribund economy and relieve its debts. It would be great if it did, but with western economies struggling, no western politician is in a position to announce many billions in aid to the Ukraine. The chances of Ukraine escaping from Russian political and economic domination in the near future are non-existent – the Ukrainians are tied by debt. That was the hard reality that scuppered the EU/Ukraine agreement. That hard reality still exists. The Association Agreement is a very long path to EU membership.
Both Putin and the West are reacting to events which unfolded within Ukraine. Action by the West was not a significant factor in the toppling by Yanukovich – that was a nationalist reaction to an abrupt change of political direction which seemed to be moving Ukraine decisively into the Russian orbit. Ukrainians are not stupid and they can see the standard of living in former Soviet Bloc countries which have joined the European Union is now much higher . Anybody who denies that is deluded. Of course western governments had programmes to encourage pro-western tendencies in Ukraine, including secret operations. It would be naïve to expect otherwise. Anybody who thinks Russia was not doing exactly the same is deluded. But it is a huge mistake to lay too much weight on these efforts – both the West and Russia were taken aback by the strength and speed of the political convulsions in Ukraine, and everybody is still paying catch-up.
Which is why we now need a period of calm, and an end to dangerous military adventurism – which undeniably is coming primarily from Russia. Political dialogue needs to be resumed. It is interesting that even the pro-Russian assembly of Crimea region has only called a referendum on more devolved powers, not on union with Russia or independence. However I still maintain the best way forward is agreement on internationally supervised referenda to settle the position. The principle of self-determination should be the most important one here. If any of the regions of Ukraine wish to secede, the goal should be a peaceful and orderly transition. Effective military annexation by Putin, and insistence by the West that national boundaries cannot be changed, are both unproductive stances.
“So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.”
That’s the good news. The bad news is a splintering off, or division of territory occurring based on defections will still lead to civil war. Not that independent minded Ukrainians would object. Moscow wants the whole flounder (Dover sole) or none at all. JMO
@Z – Anybody who has partaken of black jelly knows its sweetness can turn you into its slave. But do not underestimate the pink jelly of the former Soviet satellite states either, it can also turn anybody into a Russophobe !! Its very clear who the devils are, we have just seen an atrocious Ghouta false flag gassing involving using 400 dead children as props to start war. And we are being told that they are the good guys, that the person who stopped the devils in their tracks,Putin, is actually the bad guy, sheesh !! But its a sign of the proximity of the Last Day, the truth will be turned upside down, dershowitz/Jidge hellerstein logic now rule.
Fred,
I was suggesting the ICJ, not the ICC. Black Jelly, you still don’t get the point that Putin is against western intervention in other countries, but in favour of his own. And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.
“But the reporting here has all the bias of our government-owned media. It concentrates on rioting in the Ukraine where there was a pro-Russian government against which there was severe public dissent. It gave very little attention to the protests in Bosnia Herzegovina where the police have been accused of violence against demonstrators, and the presidential palace has been burned.”
_____________________
Illogical and irrelevant.
Bias in the sense that the media are writing a lot about Ukraine and little about BiH does not prove that the media are telling untruths about what happened/is happening in Ukraine.
Furthermore : have you considered the possibility that ‘bias’ in the sense outlined above might be due to the fact that what is going on in Ukraine is a damn sight more important (and potentially dangerous)to the West than what is going on in BiH?
“authorities in Kiev” – online news results for last 24 hours shows thousands of instances.
“constitutional” – a handful of results – in the Russian press:
2 Mar – ITAR-Tass: Russian diplomat: Ukraine situation should be brought back in constitutional framework
“It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity,” Churkin said
The situation in Ukraine should be brought back on political track and in constitutional framework, Russian Permanent Representative in the United Nations Organisation Vitaly Churkin said at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday…
He shared United Nations Deputy Secretary-General Jan Eliasson’s appeal to assess the situation in Ukraine keeping the head cool.
“As (U.N. Deputy Secretary-General) Jan Eliasson said correctly it is needed to keep the head cool. It is needed to bring the situation back on political track and in constitutional framework. It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity,” Churkin said…
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/721629
2 Mar – Pravda: Ukraine: The Law, the Putsch and the Imposter
by Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey
The irresponsibility of the western media calling Oleksandr Turchynov “Interim President” and referring to the “new Government” of Ukraine walks hand in hand with the notion that Governments can be deposed and instated by groups of armed thugs on the streets. Turchynov claims power, but what about the massive voting fraud in the Rada?
Under the law, under the Constitution of Ukraine, Oleksandr Turchynov is not the Interim President, he is an imposter, the leader of a Putsch who has as much right to declare himself or to be declared Interim President as the author of this article, or anyone else for that matter. Why doesn’t Turchynov, the subject of a criminal investigation in the past, not declare himself Queen of Sheeba?…
Under the Agreement signed between President Yanukovich and the members of the Opposition in February 2014, the forthcoming election was to be brought forward from 2015 to late 2014, so until then, the President of Ukraine is Viktor Yanukovich. Under the existing Constitution, in the absence of a Presidential exercise of duties, it is the Prime Minister who takes office as Interim President and the Presidency is ratified by the Constitutional Court.
Mykola Azarov resigned the Premiership on January 28 2014, and was replaced as Prime Minister by Sergiy Arbuzov. In replacing the legitimate Prime Minister with Arseniy Yatsenyuk and in terminating the powers of the Constitutional Court judges, using a proxy voting system which has been outlawed during President Yanukovich’s Presidency, and in the absence of many of the Party of Regions deputies in the Rada, the action of proclaiming Turchynov as Interim President and of replacing Government Ministers has no legal basis whatsoever and is therefore void under Ukrainian law and as per the Ukrainian Constitution….
And let us analyse the constitution of the Rada…
And look at the picture showing members of the Rada holding the voting cards of other members. This explains the “vote”. Multiple voting for absentee members. Ladies and gentlemen, the photograph on the left denounces massive electoral fraud…
Oleksandr Turchynov is not, legally, the Interim President of the Ukraine and his Government is not a Government – it is a clique of imposters. Any foreign powers greeting and recognizing them is guilty of criminal association. This is the law.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/02-03-2014/126976-ukraine_putsch-0/
CanSpecy
“So far the Nato-Nazi’s hopes of instigating a Ukrainian civil war seem not to be bearing fruit.”
________________________
In which case you should be pleased. But somehow you don’t sound it.
Oddie
Yes and no doubt James II is still King of England. The point is, it’s a Ukrainian affair. Whether the events were legal or not (and revolutions are by definition illegal) it does not anyone the right to invade the country.
Fred,
Yes, there is a lot written in favour of liberal intervention, by neo-cons like Yoo and Blairite acolytes like Cooper. But that neo-cons claim their “might is right” policy is legal, does not make it so. There is no solid body of case law than negates the principle of non-interference.
“And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
__________________
And they never will. This is because they believe that the rebels in that part of the world are the paid agents of evil Western war-mongers and Russophobes. Therefore, they support their pin-up boy President rasPutin.
I wonder if there is another country in the world where a former secret policeman (and no mean foot soldier at that)could become Head of State?
Craig
Larry Summers called the financial game that the US is playing with creditors, a financial balance of terror.
There’s something similar going on with international law. The west uses and abuses it as it sees fit and there surely must be some provision in that context for countries like Russia to protect themselves.
The west certainly orchestrated, encouraged and financed the protests and in the end Nuland got her man the job.
I don’t think the fascists will necessarily take power but they were used to a purpose and will certainly have their pound of flesh.
It’s far from being a people’s revolution even in terms of western Ukraine and most definitely not in terms of Ukraine as a whole.
2 Mar – Russia Today: Will be a war crime to use force against Ukraine civilians, Russia warns self-proclaimed president
Russia, too, has voiced doubts over the legitimacy of the self-proclaimed government, citing the procedural violations the Ukrainian parliament committed in ousting Yanukovich, appointing a new cabinet and taking control of the country’s judiciary. Moscow is also concerned over reports that some MPs were forced to change their votes under threat of physical violence.
Moscow on Saturday referred the issue to the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, an advisory body with expertise in constitutional law. A similar request to monitor the legitimacy of the actions in Kiev was addressed to the Interparliamentary Assembly of the Commonwealth of Independent States, which brings together MPs from most former republics of the Soviet Union.
http://rt.com/news/war-crime-ukraine-troops-425/
3 months prior to Gaddafi’s assassination:
July 2011 – AP: US recognizes Libyan rebels as Libyan government
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says the Obama administration has decided to formally recognize Libya’s main opposition group as the country’s legitimate government. The move gives foes of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi a major financial and credibility boost…
http://news.yahoo.com/us-recognizes-libyan-rebels-libyan-government-124658625.html
Actually, I could answer my own question : NKVD agent President Boleslaw Bierut of Poland. In the good old days of the Little Father, strangely enough.
“can someone please tell us what Sasha Billy was saying to the public prosecutor?”
He was telling off the bureaucrat for being a lazy pen pusher who wasn’t properly investigating some case or other and that he would throw him to the crowd because he had an expensive looking watch as well.
“I was suggesting the ICJ, not the ICC.”
The ICJ only has jurisdiction if both parties agree to abide by their ruling. Their only means of enforcement is the UNSC where Russia has power of veto.
@CM – Putin has just been awakened by his sisters rape just outside his doorstep, the perpetrators emboldened by some choice cookies distributed by a Victoria Nuland. And what you are saying is he should close the door and go back to sleep, its a United Nations affair.
Habby
If Nuland’s man got the job she wanted for him it does seem as though she had a hand in it.
Speaking of President Boleslaw Bierut of Poland, he reportedly died in Russia, of heart failure, shortly after Krushchev’s secret speech denouncing Stalinism. The smart money was on grief that the speech had been made rather than grief at Stalin’s crimes.
On a much baser level, I do hope none of the rasPutinistas here will go under in similar fashion once rasPtuin’s crimes will have been brought fully into the open.
Interesting divergence in perspective between ex UK diplomat here and ex US spook,
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/01/ukraine-one-regime-change-too-many/
‘That appears to imply that Russia mostly owns the 25% pf Ukrainian debt which is in short-term bonds, doesn’t it. If correct, that’s very interesting and would make it appear that Russia is the bad boy.’
Not really Habba; it suggests that Putin was keen to shore up the Yanukovich government, but not its successor. Sovereign debt is often acquired, or not acquired, by other sovereigns for reasons of realpolitik rather than ‘good business’- Osborne’s loan to Ireland a couple of years back is a good case in point.
If the Irish government at the time had been strongly Anglophobic with, say, Sinn Fein holding several Cabinet posts, I doubt if Our Gideon would have been quite so ready to write a blank check for our next door neighbours.
Black Jelly….
Re the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta,
“From the moment when some families of abducted children contacted us to inform us that they recognized the children among those who are presented in the videos as victims of the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta, we decided to examine the videos thoroughly. …
Our first concern was the fate of the children we see in the footages. Those angels are always alone in the hands of adult males that seem to be elements of armed gangs. The children that trespassed remain without their families and unidentified all the way until they are wrapped in the white shrouds of the burial. Moreover our study highlights without any doubt that their little bodies were manipulated and disposed with theatrical arrangements to figure in the screening.
If the studied footages were edited and published to exhibit pieces of evidence to accuse the Syrian State of perpetrating the chemical attacks on East Ghouta, our discoveries incriminate the editors and actors of forged facts through a lethal manipulation of unidentified children. …
Thus we want to raise awareness toward the humanitarian case of this criminal use of children in the political propaganda of the East Ghouta Chemical Weapons Attack
We present this work to distinguished Spiritual Leaders, Heads of State, Members of Parliament Humanitarian actors and to any person who has heart for truth and justice and seeks to due accountability for evil deeds.“
Mother Agnes Mariam de La Croix,
Mother Agnes has organised an international delegation led by Nobel Peace Laureate Mairead Maguire to come to Syria to see for themselves. She is one of the main organizers of Mussalaha (“Reconciliation”), a popular movement in Syria that mediates disputes and organizes ceasefires between opposing forces.
and to think that a couple of wee dickheads – Owen Jones and Jeremy Scahill Opposed Mother Agnes speaking at a Stop the War conference.
I think there is Some Good reasoning in this piece by Finian Cunningham
US State Department official Victoria Nuland recently disclosed that Washington has “invested” some $5 billion in “promoting democracy” (that is, subversion and sedition) in Ukraine over the past two decades.
The crisis came to a head when the embattled elected Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych fled suddenly from his office last week and went into exile in Russia. The Ukrainian parliament has since been taken over by his Western-backed opponents and a new interim government installed. Washington and Brussels swiftly moved to recognize this so-called new authority in Kiev, but Russia, with sound legal reasoning, has denounced the sacking of the elected Yanukovych and his government as a coup d’état.
The turmoil in Ukraine has therefore all the hallmarks of a Washington-led regime-change operation. Needless to say that is a wholly criminal interference that makes a mockery of international law. The ultimate target of this meddling, as has been brazenly stated over many years since the early 1990s by Zbigniew Brzezinski and other US imperial planners, is the destabilization of Russia itself.
Risibly, Washington’s new puppet president in Kiev, Oleksandr Turchynov, has now accused Russian forces of “seizing and capturing” the regional parliament and other government buildings in Ukraine’s southern Crimea. This complaint comes from political agitators who used violence and other crimes, including the murder of policemen, to seize government buildings in Kiev, culminating in the ousting of an elected president.
In all this, Russian President Vladimir Putin has maintained a cagey silence. But the Russian leader knows only too well the depth of American deception and hypocrisy, and Washington’s covert agenda for regime change – an agenda which is being ruthlessly pursued against Russia’s Arab ally, Syria.
For now, Moscow seems to be effecting an air of calm legality and playing by the rules, citing that its troops in Crimea are part of its bilateral military agreement with the Ukraine.
But, off the record, the Americans know that what Putin is really saying is this: “You want to break the law, well, OK, we can break it too. Now back off!”
Rules of sovereignty and international law are out the window, and it is Washington and its European puppets who threw all norms out that window with their incessant, illegal interference in Ukraine. Ukrainian territory, and its centuries of shared history, is a vital interest for Russia.
Putin is entirely right to lay down an unspoken military marker to Washington over Ukraine, just like he did when the Americans tried to mess militarily with South Ossetia in 2008 through its NATO proxy, Georgia.
American exceptionalism of arrogance and lawlessness does not understand the language of diplomacy. The only language it responds to is blunt force talking back to force.”
The full Piece, and other related links @
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/putin-faces-down-obama-over-ukraine/#more-158747
“And still neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
———————————————————————————
Well I’m not a Putinista, but I’ll have a go.
Firstly I’m not sure there is a majority in favour of secession in those two states (correct me if I’m wrong).
Secondly, I’m not sure they would necessarily want to secede into an Islamic state under Sharia law.
Thirdly, if they want to secede, why do they not push politically for a referendum instead of indulging in a violent insurgency?
the most vital & telling pic of the Ukraine saga:
Map of Russian gas supply pipelines via Ukraine
http://en.ria.ru/images/15520/63/155206369.jpg
“Yes, there is a lot written in favour of liberal intervention, by neo-cons like Yoo and Blairite acolytes like Cooper. But that neo-cons claim their “might is right” policy is legal, does not make it so. There is no solid body of case law than negates the principle of non-interference.”
I don’t think legality comes into it.
Russia will protect their interests legal or illegal, just like America does.
just as we cyncially exploited concern for women’s rights in the build-up to attacking Afghanistan, it has been “concern” for gay rights in the case of Russia/Ukraine. BBC World Sce has broadcast the following more than once to date &, in Australia, which carries BBC on ABC News Radio, we have probably heard it four times already.
anonymous russian gay who has to enter US via Mexico/Rio Grande & lots of other nonsense about how many more gays will seek asylum in the future. never explains what the actual Russian law is about. plenty of the narcissistic, spooky Amb Michael McFaul, who resigned in Feb. plus a Russian woman from New York who just happens to have an NBC-Sochi-reporter friend who she tweets in Sochi:
BBC “The World”: Boston Calling – Russian Departures
The story of a gay Russian man who fears persecution at home and heads to the US seeking asylum – and a new life. Also on the programme, the out-going US ambassador to Russia reminisces about his time in Moscow and the active social media presence he nurtured while serving there. We also explore the Russian aversion to putting ice cubes in drinking glasses…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01sqlxd/Boston_Calling_Russian_Departures/
the program was co-produced by the following:
The World is a US-based international news and analysis program co-produced by the BBC, PRI, and WGBH. Hosted by Marco Werman
http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/public-radio-international/pris-the-world-latest-edition
McFaul adulation at the Moscow Times – matches the BBC program above:
11 Feb – Moscow Times: Farewell, Ambassador McFaul
by Michael Bohm
McFaul used his charm and “Twitter diplomacy” to win over tens of thousands of Russians. This led the Kremlin to carry out a smear and harassment campaign against him…
In a farewell interview with Kommersant, McFaul said one of his greatest failures as ambassador was his inability to destroy the myth that the U.S. wants to organize a revolution in Russia…
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/farewell-ambassador-mcfaul/494528.html
Herbie:
“I haven’t made any claim about the legitimacy of the Ukrainian parliamentary decision.
But, both yourself and Angrysoba have claimed it as legitimate.
So, can you please answer the questions put to you:
1. Were members threatened with or in fear of violence?
2. Were all members who wished to vote in attendance.
3. Was the president ousted lawfully and in accordance with the constitution?”
Herbie, I don’t believe I have argued for the legitimacy of Yanukovych’s ousting. The argument I made was that it was conducted by Ukrainians which is very much the point I made before that Ukraine is deciding its future and not the “western oligarchs” who you say scuppered a peaceful agreement with violence. You still haven’t been able to substantiate this argument and you’ve been clutching at straws ever since. Everything aimed at defending Putin’s actions of invading a sovereign nation.
I haven’t answered your questions because they are irrelevant and aimed not at clarity but at creating confusion which is the usual purpose of JAQing off.
Russia’s Permanent Representative in the United Nations Organisation Vitaly Churkin said at a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday:
It is needed to bring the situation back on political track and in constitutional framework. It is needed to return to the February 21 agreement and formation of a government of national unity.
But as noted above, CM is not interested in, and therefore won’t talk about, a return to a constitutional framework. Instead he blathers on about the victimhood of our side, hoping like Hell that the Russians can be incited to kill a some Ukrainians thereby consolidating a fraudulent moral case for regime change in Ukraine, if not another $trillion-dollar-war.
This is, in fact, nothing more than a Neo-Con/Neo-Nazi propaganda site, which is no doubt why the long absent (thankfully) AngrySobarbarian of the Crass Sunstein school of blogging has returned to give support at a difficult time.
Vivre the Global Empire for the greater profits of international capital, and fuck the EU.
Craig: “neither you nor any of the other Putinistas has addressed the point on Chechnya or Dagestan.”
Did you not see Richard’s Post;
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/putin-and-international-law/#comment-443645
Perhaps you are jumping the gun, and falling for what could be just Putin’s positioning gambit, as although he has sought & obtained authorization for military intervention in the, but it has happened yet, and maybe it won’t, afterall he has many options & time is one of them;
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/02/vladimir_putin_can_destabilize_ukraine_the_russian_president_doesn_t_need.html
2 Mar – Voice of Russia: US, EU ‘pyromaniacs’ surprised at fire they started in Ukraine – expert
The United States and European Union should have anticipated the consequences of their dubious decision to throw support behind the Ukrainian regime change, a French geopolitical analyst has told Russian media.
“What we are witnessing now is the easily predictable aftermath of the US and EU’s irresponsible decision to back the overthrow of a legally-elected Ukrainian president at the time when Russia was busy with the Sochi Olympic Games,” Emerique Chopard said in an interview with Interfax.
“I have been warning about a possible escalation since the very beginning of the Ukrainian unrest, which was provoked by outside actors,” he added…
Cabinet pyromaniacs [in Western countries], who wanted to play with fire without giving a second thought to the consequences of their decision to pit one part of Ukraine against the other, are of course upset over the arrival of Russian ‘firefighters,’” Chopard said.
“But it’s these pyromaniacs that will have to bear the brunt of colossal historic responsibility for leaving Ukraine a weaker state.”
Emerique Chopard has called on international community to look for a way out of this crisis without the help from United States…
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_02/US-EU-pyromaniacs-surprised-at-fire-they-started-in-Ukraine-expert-8741/
Sept 2013: Economist: The other Yalta conference
A global elite gathering in the Crimea
The future of Ukraine, a country of 48m people, and of Europe was being decided in real time…
The guestbook read like a Who’s Who of Europe. Mario Monti and Gerhard Schroder, a former prime minister of Italy and a former chancellor of Germany, along with Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former managing director of the IMF, were lamenting the lack of visionary and inspiring European leaders who could re-ignite the passion for a united Europe. Egemen Bagis, Turkey’s chief negotiator with the EU, passionately lectured them on the benefits of fiscal discipline.
Lawrence Summers, a former American treasury secretary, and Robert Zoellick, an ex-head of the World Bank, were reflecting on the imbalances of the world economy. David Petraeus, a retired general and former head of the CIA, and Bill Richardson, a former energy secretary, talked about the shale-gas revolution that is changing the balance of power between Russia and the West. Mr Pinchuk himself was having a ball, moderating a session between Tony Blair and Bill Clinton…
Yet the real focus of the conference was Ukraine itself. It is close to signing an association and free-trade agreements with the EU at a summit in Vilnius in November. The EU is keener than ever on the agreement. Russia, on the other hand, considers this a red line. Crossing it could spell a trade war…
Russia is fast losing Ukraine through its own arrogance and bullying. The contrast between the way Ukraine is treated by Russia and the West was only too obvious in Yalta. Whereas America was represented by a dozen high-level officials, including the former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, who gave a speech, Russia did not even bother to send its ambassador. Its only representative was Sergei Glaziev, a nationalist-minded economic advisor to Mr Putin, whose job was to warn Ukraine against a “suicidal” step…
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/09/other-yalta-conference
i’m surprised they sent anyone at all to that “den of thieves”.
Peter Hitchens: ‘Russia is sick of being humiliated and pushed around by ignorant outsiders’: MoS columnist PETER HITCHENS says Putin DOES have a right to intervene
We have been rubbing Russia up the wrong way for nearly 25 years.
It is hard to see why…
Senior American, German and EU figures have gone to Kiev to egg on the anti-Russian crowds. Imagine how you would feel if Russia’s Foreign Minister turned up at SNP rallies in Edinburgh, backing Scottish independence…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2571139/Russia-sick-humiliated-pushed-ignorant-outsiders-MoS-columnist-PETER-HITCHENS-says-Putin-DOES-right-intervene.html
Oddie, I think your map of the pipelines said it all. Must get to bed. Interesting debate.