I am inclined to think the concept of territorial integrity is overrated. 100 years ago, a guarantee of Belgium’s territorial integrity led Britain into the most disastrous of wars. Thankfully for all the huffing and puffing about Ukraine’s territorial integrity, no outside power is going to be stupid enough to declare war on Russia.
The boundaries of states are accidents of history. Ukraine’s certainly are. There never had been a Ukrainian national state until 25 years ago, and the boundaries of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic were never intended to define a nation state. Indeed Crimea, which has never in history been ethnically or linguistically Ukrainian (it was Tartar before Stalin deported them), was only added on to the Ukrainian SSR within my lifetime for some obscure reason of Soviet politburo politics.
Rather than burble on about territorial integrity, the western world would do better to cut a deal with Putin wherein referenda on their future in Ukrainian provinces are held under international supervision with some degree of fairness. Personally I very much want to see Ukraine in the EU, but not with a tail of Russian provinces who really do not want to be there.
Putin, of course, is a total hypocrite. There is no doubt that the populations of Dagestan and Chehcnya had a genuine and settled desire to secede from Russia, and they have suffered Putin’s genocidal policies in consequence. Putin is not acting from a belief in self-determination, but from naked Russian nationalism. That is what is so amusing about the deluded left wingers supporting him against the nationalists of Kiev.
Referenda in the provinces of Ukraine, certainly. But how about internationally supervised referenda in Dagestan and Chechnya as well?
“@Ben after your ISON digress..”
You mean the one last year? Hokay…
Perhaps it’s more accurate to say many on the left cannot accept that international law (invasion of sovereign territory) applied to the US (eg over Iraq in particular, Pakistan lately) is in inverse proportion to that which it ‘must’ apply to Russia.
Personally I find the hypocrisy of the US and minions bleating about international law palpable and nauseating.
Peter Kemp, I agree wholeheartedly. That’s why, in part, I was so disappointed in the Guardianista/BBC-type posting by Craig. Maybe he thinks he is providing pro-EU comment but this whole neocon-inspired putch is likely to blow back on them. Currently, Putin is indeed the only one showing any statesmanship whether you admire him or not.
I’m not sure that all that many on the left are taken in by Putin. Some, perhaps. Looks to me that The West is flailing about in their usual stupid manner, and making Putin look clever. Putin is who he is: an authoritarian who, under the disguise of protecting Russia, is really interested in protecting the oligarch\military\ex KGB nexus that runs the show. Oh, he’s a Russian nationalist as well, I’m sure. I don’t think any of this is a surprise to most.
Won’t feign expertise on Ukraine, but it seems pretty obvious that US\NATO\EU have over-played their hand here, and Putin has his pretext for sabre rattling. It’s beyond me why we would be so interested in Ukraine, and expend so much effort toppling their Government, unless there is some long-game to get rid of Putin himself, or perhaps it’s about pipelines and gas, who knows? I’m afraid there are a bunch of intelligent, influential people who believe fervently that intervention in foreign governments is necessary, and that to do otherwise is naive. Myself I take the view that intervention may be an option, but only in exceptional circumstances, and even then warily. If, for example, we could topple the lunatics in N. Korea, I’d understand the necessity. But, of course, nobody cares what I think, and if my view is the majority view, which I bet it is, then fuck the majority view. The majority = the losers.
Doubtless all this will die down, after face is saved, and some deal is ironed out. But the regime change mania isn’t going to stop any time soon, and this bodes very badly indeed, I think.
even AP admits questions remain about the constitutional legitimacy of the vote:
24 Feb: Moscow Times: AP: Ukraine’s Parliament Boss Takes Presidential Powers
The legitimacy of the parliament’s flurry of decisions in recent days is under question. The votes are based on a decision Friday to return to a 10-year-old constitution that grants parliament greater powers. Yanukovych has not signed that decision into law, and he said Saturday that the parliament is now acting illegally.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ukraines-parliament-boss-takes-presidential-powers/495066.html
Soros, NED, USAID, EU … and Olmidyar – the following is on leftwing site, about another leftwing site that exposed this fact. all parties well-known to each other:
28 Feb: Raw Story: Report: Glenn Greenwald’s boss helped U.S. fund Ukrainian opposition groups
“Of the many problems that poses, none is more serious than the fact that Omidyar now has the only two people with exclusive access to the complete Snowden NSA cache, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras,” Ames went on to write. “Somehow, the same billionaire who co-financed the ‘coup’ in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets—and very few in the independent media dare voice a skeptical word about it.”…
UPDATE: Greenwald has addressed the Pando story, saying that the Omidyar Network’s funding in Ukraine won’t affect his journalist independence:
“I was not previously aware that the Omidyar Network donated to this Ukrainian group. That’s because, prior to creating The Intercept with Laura Poitras and Jeremy Scahill, I did not research Omidyar’s political views or donations. That’s because his political views and donations are of no special interest to me – any more than I cared about the political views of the family that owns and funds Salon (about which I know literally nothing, despite having worked there for almost 6 years), or any more than I cared about the political views of those who control the Guardian Trust.
“There’s a very simple reason for that: they have no effect whatsoever on my journalism or the journalism of The Intercept. That’s because we are guaranteed full editorial freedom and journalistic independence.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/28/report-glenn-greenwalds-boss-helped-u-s-fund-ukrainian-opposition-groups/
btw left/right/libertarian websites in US that i visit are antiwar, & don’t like the involvement of their Govt in yet another fake revolution, for which they might be asked to sacrifice lives. if only we could unite on the basis of that commonality.
british public, on the other hand, couldn’t care a damn.
1 Mar: Deutsche Welle: Caracas burns anew as Venezuela’s anti-Maduro protests extend into March
President Nicolas Maduro has labeled the near month of protests a US-backed “coup” attempt.
Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner also denounced the “attempted soft coup against the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.” On Saturday, she told the Argentine parliament that, though she would not defend Maduro or his government, it was necessary to stand by the democratic system “in every country of the region, whether from the left, the right or from behind.” She added that “democracy is a matter of peace and life.”…
http://www.dw.de/caracas-burns-anew-as-venezuelas-anti-maduro-protests-extend-into-march/a-17467454
time will tell how much is true:
RT: Ukrainian Navy flagship takes Russia’s side – report
Ukraine’s Navy flagship, the Hetman Sahaidachny frigate, has reportedly refused to follow orders from Kiev, and come over to Russia’s side and is returning home after taking part in NATO operation in the Gulf of Aden flying the Russian naval flag.
There has been conflicting information on where exactly the vessel is, but a Russian senator has confirmed to Izvestia daily that the frigate defected to the Russian side.
“Ukraine’s Navy flagship the Hetman Sahaidachny has come over to our side today. It has hung out the St Andrew’s flag,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the committee on the international affairs, told Izvestia daily.
He said the flagship is on its way back to the Black Sea after drills in the Mediterranean. “The crew has fulfilled the order by the chief commander of Ukraine’s armed forces Viktor Yanukovich,” he added…
The move comes after the Navy command resigned Friday. Self-appointed President Aleksandr Turchinov made Rear Admiral Denis Berezovsky the new Navy Chief, a statement published on the President’s website Saturday said.
Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the Prime Minister of Ukraine had earlier asked his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan not to let the frigate through the Bosporus strait, according to the Kiev Times. The ship captain and the head of Ukraine’s contingent in the operation, Rear Admiral Andrey Tarasov disobeyed orders from Kiev.
The Hetman Sahaidachny returns to Sevastopol, Crimea after taking part in a joint counter-piracy operation with NATO and the EU off the Horn of Africa, reported UNN on Friday, citing Ukraine’s Defense Ministry.
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-navy-flaghsip-protest-389/
Putin was highly critical of the US led invasion of Iraq. It seems hypocrisy over this impending disaster runs wide and deep.
It isn’t the hypocrisy of the likes of Obama or Putin but that of the so-called anti-war left in this country which, I have to say, hasn’t come as much of a surprise to many. There’s nothing statesmanlike about bullying a smaller, weaker nation and Putin’s excuses of providing stability and protecting the Russian speaking minority are risible.
Craig,
Your anti-Putin bias is well explained by Robert Parry here:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/26/cheering-a-democratic-coup-in-ukraine/
An excerpt:
“That strategy was going swimmingly until Putin helped bring Iran to the negotiating table over guarantees that its nuclear program would not lead to a nuclear weapon. Putin also brokered a deal to avert threatened U.S. air strikes on Syria over disputed evidence regarding who launched a chemical attack on civilians outside Damascus. Putin got the Syrian government to agree to eliminate its chemical weapons arsenal.
So, Putin found himself in the center of the neocons’ bulls-eye and – given some of his own unforced errors such as defending Russia’s intolerance toward gays and spending excessively on the Sochi Olympics – he became the latest “designated villain,” denounced and ridiculed across the neocon-dominated op-ed pages of the Washington Post and other major news outlets.
Even NBC, from its treasured spot as the network of the Olympic Games, felt it had no choice but to denounce Putin in an extraordinary commentary delivered by anchor Bob Costas. Once the demonizing ball gets rolling everyone has to join in or risk getting run over, too.
All of which set the stage for Ukraine. “
Have you been watching too much NBC of late?
Dear Craig,
My final comment on your primary post and – especially – your response to the Escobar article posted at 1.12 am. Your response is so silly that I doubt you were fully cognisant when you made it, so I will not labour the point (at least too much, I hope).
As you will know, there are very strict legal maritime agreements about the passage of naval vessels through the Bosphorus Straights. So for NATO to block Russian vessels (other than major warships such as Aircraft Carriers) would be an act of war. And of course NATO could sink the entire Russian Black Sea fleet (although unlikely in 10 minutes), just as the Russians could readily dispose of the US Fifth Fleet based in Bahrain. But these actions too would be a declaration of war, by either side, and MAD would ensue.
So it is entirely unclear as to the point you were trying to make other than to perhaps disparage the Russian naval capacity (and of course the evil “Putin”) at the feet of the all mighty and righteous NATO.
I do hope that you pause to reflect and do some more reading. See eg:
http://orientalreview.org/2014/03/01/the-costs-you-are-about-to-pay-in-ukraine-president-obama/
“Once the demonizing ball gets rolling everyone has to join in ”
Not difficult to demonize someone who’s launched an unprovoked invasion of a neighbouring country.
Glenn Greenwald’s full response – somewhat long-winded & beside the point, but here it is:
On the Meaning of Journalistic Independence
By Glenn Greenwald
This morning, I see that some people are quite abuzz about a new Pando
article “revealing” that the foundation of Pierre Omidyar, the publisher of
First Look Media which publishes The Intercept, gave several hundred
thousand dollars to a Ukraininan “pro-democracy” organization opposed to the
ruling regime. This, apparently, is some sort of scandal that must be
immediately addressed not only by Omidyar, but also by every journalist who
works at First Look. That several whole hours elapsed since the article was
published on late Friday afternoon without my commenting is, for some,
indicative of disturbing stonewalling…
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/01/journalistic-independence/
Are you aware a neo nazi government has been installed? This bodes ill for the ethno Russians.
http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government/
Ukrainian ultra-rightists given major Cabinet posts in government
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/28/the-swedish-neo-nazis-of-kiev.html
Neo-Nazis Pour Into Kiev
A stream of European jihadists have traveled to Syria to wage holy war. Now a group of European neo-Nazis are traveling to Ukraine to save the white race
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/ukraine-nationalistantisemitismneonaziviolence.html
Ultranationalist neo-Nazi parties on the march in Ukraine
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14553#.UxKa4eNdVTI
Op-Ed: Tea With Neo-Nazis: The Violent Nationalism in Ukraine
The violence in Ukraine is a show case of the pan-European rise of race hatred. Europe is engaging in a risky blindness. Again.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100260665/ukraine-the-opposition-arent-all-angels-some-are-neo-nazis/
Ukraine: the opposition aren’t all angels. Some are neo-Nazis
Well Hague is off to Kiev to meet the ‘interim government’ as the British MSM are referring to these self-appointed men. I see no women in the picture incidentally.
A review of the British Sunday papers on Sky News last night. Scripted. Incestuous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfgwPiPMjoY#t=15
Priceless!
The female is described as an historian which is true but in reality they get her on for commentary on royal weddings, jubilees and christenings. The male is a PR type and used to be a speechwriter. You get the drift. I love the bit when the Observer front page comes up with the large photo of a Russian soldier. ‘That’s what an invasion looks like’ says the male. He should have gone to Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya et al.
Alex Deane – Weber, Shandwick Media Intelligence Partners. Cameron’s first chief of staff! http://mippr.co.uk/mipeople/alex-deane/
Kate Williams – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Williams_(historian)#Television_and_radio
The ZBC equivalent which might be of interest.
The Papers 1.3.2014 Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v6poskGbqc
‘Yesterday the United States lost the propaganda war on Ukraine. President Obama made a reluctant and senseless statement which Washington Post entitled “There will be costs”.
He pronounced standard phrases like “the Ukrainian people deserve the opportunity to determine their own future”, proposed Russia to be a “part of an international community’s effort to support the stability and success of a united Ukraine”, lamented over the alleged “violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity” and assured that “the United States supports his government’s efforts and stands for the sovereignty, territorial integrity and democratic future of Ukraine”.’
[..]
‘So Moscow’s message to President Obama is simple. We are the real guarantors of Ukrainian sovereignty. We are protecting the life of its incumbent president, elected by the people of Ukraine at the free and competitive poll in 2010, from the direct personal threat from illegitimate “new authorities”. For the last three months, unlike you, we were not interfering in the internal political process in Ukraine while your Assistant Secretary of State was handing buns to the “peaceful protesters” in Kiev and talking smut about your European dialogue partners. We followed the letter and spirit of the international law whether we liked it or not. And today we are giving hope to millions of the Russian Ukrainians who categorically reject banderist authorities in Kiev. We are defending their right to determine their future. Therefore you will be brought to account for the billions of dollars invested for years long into the chimera project of the Orange revolution in Ukraine, which in its second incarnation turned Brown. You will be charged for months of explicit incitements for riots and civilian disobedience to legitimate authorities in Ukraine, committed by your officials and congressmen. And you will be responsible for the recognition of the shady Kiev “cabinet”, not only lacking any public support in Ukraine, but also any real resources to secure minimal level of life and the rule of law in this 45-million strong nation, lost in a non-existent “transition”, invented by your insolvent foreign policy consultants. These are the costs you are about to pay in Ukraine, President Obama.’
Links within.
The Costs about to Be Paid in Ukraine
by Andre Fomine / March 1st, 2014
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/03/the-costs-about-to-be-paid-in-ukraine/
“The problem is that many on the left will ever accept any analysis which does not simply say “Western evil bastards, Putin heroic defender f freedom”. Anything else is “ignorant”.”
Well said, Craig!
To which Ben blunders in with: “Craig: Are you conflating all leftists as ‘deluded’?”
If you can read, then clearly not, Ben. Just a certain deluded variety. <O~~~
This is the current US Ambassador to Ukraine. He was on the end of the line to Nuland in the now notorious telephone conversation – the $5billion and the ****the EU references.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_R._Pyatt
A previous incumbent William Green Miller was rolled out on BBC News overnight. He was Ukraine Ambassador in Clinton’s time. He is a member of the neocon outfit the Council on Foreign Relations.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1393742861.html video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Green_Miller
There has always been a section of the British left which never suffered from delusions about the Soviet Union and for which the ersatz left saved its greatest hatred e.g. just remember the initial treatment of Orwell. I am afraid many of the commenters here are just carrying on that disgusting ands squalid tradition – which is of course while they have alighted on his “deluded left wingers” comment rather than his rather misguided guided call for referenda in Western Ukraine in current circumstances, which I am sure their latterday hero would heartily endorse.
What is not appreciated is that the class around Putin always considered that the break up of the Soviet Union was the greatest betrayal – and that the objective is it re-establishment in a modern day form, with all the former states within the control of a small elite based in Moscow who derive most of the material benefits (yes wealth for the elite has become very important – and there is no longer an ideological requirement not to brag too much about it). I posted links before to how Russia now had a top rate of income tax of 13% and how social spending on health and pensions was being cut in a way that Osbourne and his ilk could only dream of, at the same time as spending ridiculous amounts on the Sochi Olympics where the mistress of the Great Leader is involved in lighting the flame – but even then the ersatz left still continue with their delusions.
A blog about Ukraine and N_ manages to fit in three references to Rothschilds, Zionists and Israelis.
If N_ carries on like this he may find himself in line for the John Dross Trophy for outstanding obsession with the Joos, previously held by Guano and the late Fedup. Fingers crossed!
Yeah but it’s an invasion like and invasions are like wrong and Putin is a nationalist and well dodgy innit.
BBC, Sky and other of the tools of western oligarchs are pushing the term “invasion” to an extent that they’re now more laughable than their last propaganda blitz.
Anyway, as ever, Herbie has a solution.
How’s about the EU take the western forests and fascists bits and like Russia takes its own bits.
Sorted.
On 911 Rummsfeld was ensconced in the East Wing of the Pentagon whilst 3 large planes flew about (unchallenged by NORAD) for 1.5 hours in the most sensitive air-space in the world. 110 story steel structures then turned to dust in 10-15 seconds leaving an only 80 ft pile of rubble at the base?!! Etc,etc… we are talking of the Beast here, kempe (with the “We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.” yiddery), and definitely NOT PUTINn !
This SAME dedicated group of deep state devils at the Pentagon East Wing planned and carried out the Ukrainian putch. Nuland did not simply appear uninvited at the Maidan with leftover matzo balls for distribution to the hungry CIA mob. Nor was the toothpaste bomber spin just before Sochi. Nor were the US warships turning up in the Black Sea.
But like the BBC WTC 7 DST bubu the fools forgot, that even if a dragon fly farts in Ukraine Boris knows about it. The Nuland “Fuck EU” telecon leak was just a starter, the Russians have known about the Pentagon devil’ plans all along, it was simply an opportunity to regain Crimea. Obama will shut up as soon as they reveal other even more damaging Nuland Fuck you type conversations in private. Even Hague will tighten his sphincter and retreat for fear the Bear will fuck it !!
From the OED
Invasion noun
1 An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force
Could Herbie please explain how the term “invasion” is being pushed? Or is this just another case of the totalitarians wishing to redefine language for their own purposes.
Black Jelly
There is medicine you can take to deal with severe forms of delusion such as your own.
“Mr Putin responded by saying that Moscow reserves the right to protect its interests and those of Russian speakers in Ukraine”
Most Ukrainians speak Russian.
Res Diss, they’ll at worst support, or at best make excuses for, any old dictator, tyrant or autocratic regime as long as it is opposed to the West. Their proclaimed principles of justice, equality and fairness in the world are immediately dispensed with in such a situation. Craig, at least, can see the moral hazards of going down this route, but elements of the left have been characterized by their willingness to turn a blind eye to the unsavoury aspects of those they champion ever since the days of Mao and Stalin, and rightly maligned for doing so as no one likes a hypocrite who pretends to occupy the moral high ground.
“Rather than burble on about territorial integrity, the western world would do better to cut a deal with Putin wherein referenda on their future in Ukrainian provinces are held under international supervision with some degree of fairness. Personally I very much want to see Ukraine in the EU, but not with a tail of Russian provinces who really do not want to be there.”
Surely the reason why territorial integrity is important is because it was the subject of agreements to respect it signed by the US, the UK, Russia, and Ukraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
I think it would be an extremely dangerous precedent to agree to Putin’s annexation of the Crimea. If there is to be any kind of secession of the Crimea then surely that should be decided by Ukraine. Not by Putin.
Res Diss
“Could Herbie please explain how the term “invasion” is being pushed?”
Here ya go.
Watch and weep.
The Murdoch oligarch’s outfit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfgwPiPMjoY
The BBC oligarchs efforts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_bL7m58Zpw
All the other western oligarchs:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=ukraine+invasion&oq=ukraine+invasion&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i53.541.6833.0.7654.16.3.0.13.13.0.141.327.2j1.3.0…0.0…1ac.1.phFPSnFFYtQ
Truly pitiful stuff.
“Resident Dissident2 Mar, 2014 – 9:10 am “From the OED
Invasion noun1
An instance of invading a country or region with an armed force
Could Herbie please explain how the term “invasion” is being pushed? Or is this just another case of the totalitarians wishing to redefine language for their own purposes.”
Herbie will likely respond that the OED is an elitist organ of the fascist state and that in more common parlance an invasion is like not an invasion.