I am not opposed to self determination for the people of Crimea; I am opposed to this referendum. Nobody can seriously argue there has been a chance for a campaign in which different viewpoints can be freely argued, with some equality of media access and freedom from fear and intimidation.
Hitler invaded Austria on 12 March 1938. The Anschluss was confirmed in a plebiscite on 10 April, just 28 days later, by a majority of 99.7%. Putin has done it in less than half of the time, and I have no doubt will produce a similar result in the vote. The point is not whether or not the vote reflects the will of the people – the point is whether the will of the people has been affected by military demonstration, fear, hysterically induced national psychosis and above all an absence of space for debate or alternative viewpoints.
There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea. There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position. Putin has proved that force majeure is powerful in international politics, and there is every reason to believe that he could have finessed international acceptance of such a referendum in due course. Germany, in particular, is much more interested in its own energy supplies than in the rights of Ukraine. In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest. It is very likely such a genuine referendum would have gone in Russia’s favour. But the disadvantages of open debate about the merits and demerits of Putin’s Russia, and his own self-image as the man of military prowess, led Putin to take the more violent course.
The vote yesterday in the Security Council should give every Putinista pause. Not even China voted with Russia. The Africans and South Americans voted solidly against. That is not because they are prisoners or puppets of the United States – they are not. Neither did they take the easy road of abstention. The truth is that what Putin is doing in Crimea is outrageous.
What happens now is going to be interesting. I greatly fear that Putin is looking to stir up as much disorder in Ukraine’s Eastern provinces as possible, perhaps with the aim of promoting civil war in which Russia can covertly intervene, rather than open invasion, but I do not put the latter past him. Against that, I am quite sure Russia did not expect the extreme diplomatic isolation, in fact humiliation, it suffered at the UN yesterday. I am hopeful Russia may step back from the brink.
The EU I expect to do nothing. Sanctions will target a few individuals who are not too close to Putin and don’t keep too many of their interests in the West. I don’t think Alisher Usmanov and Roman Abramovic need lose too much sleep, that Harrods need worry or that we will see any flats seized at One Hyde Park. (It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.) Neither do I expect to see the United States do anything effective; its levers are limited. I doubt we have seen the last of Mr Putin’s adventurism.
Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try. I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality. For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.
But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse. Wealth inequality is even more extreme. Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced. Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does. His conflicts of interest with the west have deluded a surprising number of people here into believing that Putin in some ways represents an ideological alternative. He does not. He represents a capitalism still more raw, an oligarchy still more corrupt, a wealth gap still greater and growing still quicker, a debate still more circumscribed. It speaks to the extreme political failure of the western political system, and the degree of the alienation of which I spoke, that so many strive to see something beautiful in the ugly features of Putinism.
A Node
“As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.””
__________________
Thanks for that good laugh, A Node! May I take it that you agree with Stadler that transparent voting boxes tend to ensure fair and free voting? I imagine that most of the voters did not avail themselves of private voting booths either.
Conjunction10 16 am
“Mary
You are hardly contributing to the argument. Despite the title Pilger’s article says nothing whatever about the Ukraine.” Aside, that is, from the opening sentence… “Washington’s role in the fascist putsch against an elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37970.htm
Look. Uncle Craig has the excuse of his advanced age and a lifetime of Foreign Office conditioning.
Dad has the excuse of…well…erm…Dr Bullstrode said I wasn’t to tell a soul!
What’s your excuse?
As for Mary hardly contributing….you’re new around here aren’t you?
@Mary, the story of whistleblower Pilger mentions, Christopher Boyce, was made into a powerful & dramatic 1979 film called “The Falcon and the Snowman”; he served 24 years after being convicted as a spy, only released in 2002.
Mr Scorgie to Craig:
“By the way, disparaging people that disagree with you (deluded lefties, Putinistas) does not help your arguments and damages your credibility.”
____________________
Are you a pot or a kettle?
Hurbi
You’ve referred admiringly to something calling itself the “Eurasian Organisation for Democracy and Elections (EODE), which apparently “monitored” the Crimea referendum.
I wonder if your admiration extends to the ability to identify for us the members of its Board of Directors and its “Scientific Council”?
For some reason I’m unable to understand, the EODE’s voluminous homepage is silent on this question.
Cheers, Comrade!
“As for Mary hardly contributing….you’re new around here aren’t you?”
_____________________
Or, like you, perhaps he’s been around for quite a while and just changed his handle?
No Sofia I am not new, I have been around for many years as an occasional contributor.
Mary I don’t have anything like as much certainty about what is going on as most contributors seem to have. Nevertheless I have read this and other Ukraine threads with a fair amount of diligence and thank Craig for hosting an important debate.
I am not on either side but I especially value the contributions of Resident Dissident who fought a lone battle for a few hours and Uzbek as well as Craig himself.
We live most of us in the west and are painfully reminded on a daily basis of the corruption and atmosphere of doublethink that has become normal in the last two decades around here.
But Uzbek reminds me that I for one have no first hand experience of life in the once Soviet Union and he makes me quite glad that is the case.
It now seems likely that Putin will swallow the Crimea and we are hearing more threats about the rest of Ukraine.
As to your question in some way it seems likely we have been ‘involved’ in the takeover of government but then so have all players.
Everyone talks about the Russian or Western influence. What about the Ukrainians? They like many countries between Russia and the West have been political footballs for generations. I am interested in what they want and I suspect that their influence has not been as minimal as what many of the Nuland conspiracy theorists are making out.
i don’t think any of us know how the 40% of Crimea’s Tatars who reportedly voted, voted. other nations have their own complex agendas. RFE journo – hardly a Russophile – has some interesting points to make:
15 March: Aljazeera: Crimea crisis: The Tatarstan factor
Why did politicians from Kazan pay frequent visits to Crimea recently?
by Ildar Gabidullin
(Ildar Gabidullin is a journalist from Tatarstan, currently fulfilling Vaclav Havel Journalism Fellowship in Radio Free Europe’s Tatar-Bashkir service.)
Maxim Edwards
(Maxim Edwards is a journalist and student from the UK. He has worked in Tatarstan and Armenia, and writes on inter-ethnic and inter-religious relations in the post-Soviet space.)
In Kazan itself, local authorities organised, on March 5, a solidarity rally with Crimea and in support for the official line on Crimea. Popular cliches from Russian state media (as well as speaker of the Tatarstan parliament Farit Mukhametshin) were in attendance, decrying fascism and banderovtsy in Ukraine and criticising the Yatsenyuk government in Kiev…
Two journalists in Simferopol attempted to coax President Minnikhanov into explaining his visits to Crimea, but like other Tatarstan officials, he remained inscrutable, saying solely that the Volga and Crimean Tatars were brotherly nations. Vice-President of the Crimean Parliament Rustam Temirgaliev (of Volga Tatar descent) congratulated Minnikhanov on his enormously helpful role in negotiations with Crimean Tatar leaders, guaranteeing to the Crimean Tatar community that their cultural and linguistic rights would be respected…
So what will be the result of the Kremlins’ charm offensive? Minnikhanov has been put in a difficult situation. Volga Tatars are first and foremost Russian citizens, exposed to the same views on the Crimean crisis as other Russian citizens. Yet some are not without a keen sense of ethnic and linguistic solidarity with other members of the wider Tatar world. Moscow would certainly risks angering other Muslim and Turkic peoples (not to mention Turkey itself), were it to repress what is a troublesome ethnic minority in order to achieve its goals in the Crimea…
Whatever Kazan’s motivations, Moscow’s are further-reaching. Crimean Tatar leaders may lose a little sleep over the motivations of their new friends from Tatarstan. “It is clearly part of a larger plan” remarked current leader of the Crimean Tatar Mejlis, Refat Chubarov, in a March 3 interview with Fontanka:
“As a national custom, we always accept guests; we met with them at their request. But we asked why their arrival coincided with that of Russian troops. They say that they’ve always wanted to come, but they could not have predicted such a situation. We asked them, next time they visit, to please let us know in advance.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/03/crimea-crisis-tatarstan-factor-2014314143349496558.html
11 March: Al-Monitor: Vitaly Naumkin: Russia manages Turkey, Crimean Tatars in Ukraine
About 250,000 Tatars live in the Crimea, around 12-13% of the overall population of which roughly 60% are ethnic Russians (80% of all Crimeans are Russian-speakers). The present-day number of Tatars in the Crimea is a bit more than the number of those who lived there in 1944, when all Tatars and several other ethnic groups were deported following Stalin’s orders…
But the majority of the Crimean Tatars now live in Turkey…
The Turkish leadership is clearly trying to simultaneously pursue two goals. The first is to preserve and further develop friendly cooperative relations with Moscow and avoid anything that could harm them, given the exclusively high interdependence between the two states. The second is to gain support and trust of the Turks of Crimean origin who are sympathetic to the aspirations of their kin in the Crimea (leave aside the existing baseless speculations about Ankara’s pan-Turkic or expansionist designs related to the Crimean crisis)…
Despite Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s statements, Turkey in fact might even be interested in Russia’s reunion with the Crimea given possible new economic opportunities for businesses there.
Moscow’s concern in striking a deal with the Crimean Tatars is also related to the growing influence of extremist networks there. Hizb at-Tahrir al-Islami, banned in Russia, has been quite active in the peninsula. A number of Tatars from the Belogorsk region have been recruited to fight against President Bashar al-Assad’s forces in Syria; Abdulla Jepparov from the Sary-Su village has been killed there, and his compatriots are still part of the Syrian conflict. A Tatar interlocutor told me that the mercenaries are first brought to Lebanon for training…
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/russia-crimea-ukraine-turkey-tartars.html
Craig have you joined Hilary Clintons Neo-con campaign?
Putin as Hitler?what a load of BULL!
Its is the CIA backed coup in the western Ukraine that is full of Neo-Nazis!
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554
It is the western backed Nazis that where shooting its own people and blaming the Russians!
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraines-democratic-coup-detat-killing-civilians-as-a-pretext-for-regime-change/5370705
It is the CIA backed Neo-Nazi usurpers that is threatening Russia with nuclear weapons
And exactly how many US navy vessels are currently sitting in the black sea?
Ukraine has suffered a western sponcered Neo-Nazi coup!
They tried to ban the Russian language and make Russians second class citizens
The threat of attack against the Russian population WAS VERY REAL!!
The REAL NAZIS behaind this COUP are just as obvious
Newly appointed/imposed Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk announced on monday that his government plans to sell Naftogaz Ukrainy, The national oil and gas company of the Ukraine.
He is a millionaire former banker who served as economy minister, foreign minister and parliamentary speaker before Yanukovych took office in 2010. He is a member of Yulie Tymoshenko’s Fatherland Party. Prior to the revolution cooked up by the State Department and executed by ultra-nationalist street thugs, Tymoshenko was incarcerated for embezzlement and other crimes against the people of Ukraine. Now she will be part of the installed government, same as she was after the last orchestrated coup, the Orange Revolution. ”Yats” will deliver Ukraine to the international bankers.
http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2014/02/central-banker-appointed-as-prime-minister-of-ukraine-2600974.html
Sorry Craig but your post is a Neo-liberal pile of war mongering anti-Russian pro-Nazi tat!!
I certainly do NOT support Putinism BUT Putin is not a war criminal like Obama ,Cameron , Clinton ,Bush ,Blair etc etc etc.
Putin saved Russia from Boris Yeltsins and his oligarchs vodka soaked CIA backed asset stripping sale of Russia.Russia is a lot better under Putin ,than if it was still under western controlled Yeltsin!
Russia has an agreement with the democratically elected Ukraine(NOT the NEO-NAZI coup supportters) to have troops in the Ukraine
THERE IS NOTHING ILLEGAL OR NAZI GOING ON IN RUSSIA!
THERE IS A LOT ILLEGAL AND A LOT OF NAZIS IN THE WESTERN BACKED COUP!!!
craig you seem to be striving to find soemthing beautiful in a Neo Nazi coup!!!
16 March: Itar-Tass: About 40% of Crimean Tatars take part in Crimean referendum – Prime Minister
Crimean premier Sergei Aksyonov said on Sunday about 40% of Crimean Tatars had taken part in the referendum on Crimea’s accession to Russia as a constituent entity.
More than a half of the 5,000-strong community of Crimean Tatars in the main naval port city of Sevastopol took part in Sunday’s referendum on determining the future status of Crimea, Lenur Usmanov, a spokesman for the community told Itar-Tass.
“The data we have indicates that more than 50% of Crimean Tatars living in Sevastopol came to the polling stations Sunday,” he said. “We also have the information that most of them voted in favor of reunification with Russia.”
Usmanov said the turnout of Tatars at the polls would have been bigger had it not been for the position taken by the Mejlis (Council of Representatives) of the Crimean Tatar people…
“We have the information that Mejlis representatives would stop people at the doors of the polling stations and would try to discourage them from voting but the Crimean Tatar community of Sevastopol finds actions of this kind to be unfruitful,” he said…
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723832
17 March: GlobalResearch: Lionel Reynolds: Crimea Rejects the US-NATO Sponsored Neoliberal Neo-Nazi Ukrainian Regime
At the very least, one can certainly conclude that Crimeans are emphatically more enthusiastic about ‘Hitler-Putin’ than, say, the USA is about Obama, or the UK about Cameron…
The western controlled-media has made much of the ‘Crimean Tatars’ in the lead up to the referendum, thrilled that it had found an indigenous non-European population that feared Russian rule and with a genuine grievance against the old Soviet system, a scenario well suited to play on western cultural sensibilities and therefore obfuscate the underlying geopolitical and imperial agenda behind western support for the neo-liberal/nazi Ukrainian junta.
However, quite apart from the spurious claims, a significant number of Tatars (though not the ones interviewed in CNN/BBC coverage during the lead up to the vote) also rejected rule by the neo-liberal/nazi regime…
http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimea-rejects-the-us-nato-sponsored-neoliberal-neo-nazi-ukrainian-regime/5373738
Yes. What do the Ukrainians want, asks the lurker made flesh.
The simple answer is that the neocons don’t care.
Baroness Ashton made this quite clear when she told the remaining protestors, confused that they’d they’d been given more corruption and fascism when they wanted democracy, to go home and shut up.
Job done, you see.
==================
Pawns of the world, UNITE!
used…
Pawns of the world, GOODNIGHT!
Conjunction. 11 56am
“…has not been as minimal as what many of the Nuland conspiracy theorists are making out.”
WHF? I thought the thing that defines “conspiracy theorists” is that they see conspiracies where none exist. Nuland’s mouth let the world know that she was conspiring to engineer regime change. How can those who point this out be theorists of any kind? Seems like they’re “factists” to me.
mus get out in the spring sunshine
“I am not on either side but I especially value the contributions of Resident Dissident who fought a lone battle for a few hours and Uzbek as well as Craig himself.”
That sentence certainly does tend to pigeon hole you somewhat? I must be one of your Nuland conspiracy theorists because she, on behalf of the US, wants to do to Ukraine, what was done to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, leaving behind a countries in turmoil which were much better off without US/NATO intervention. The Anonymous Ukraine emails to create false flag events, which I linked details of in my last comment, are crucial evidence against US plans for the region, and Nugent herself would “Fuck the EU”. Well I happen to live here in Europe and would rather not be fucked!
I’m not quite sure why some think Putin is a leftie or communist.
In terms of political philosophy he’s quite obviously a Conservative.
Paleo rather than neo, of course.
Cuthulan,
Aaah, but there is the problem. You say you don’t like Putin but he’s certainly not a war criminal. You plainly either don’t know, or don’t care, about Chechnya and Dagestan.
The problem with people like you, Cuthulan, that you quite rightly deride war criminals like Bush and Blair, but then go off looking for an opposing war criminal to support.
@Anode
“The Crimean referendum was fully in line with international standards, its results should be recognised both in Ukraine and western countries, Austrian member of the European Parliament Johann Stadler said at the final press-conference of international observers on Sunday.
Stadler [….] stressed that while he watched the voting he did not see any irregularities, such as putting pressure on voters, for example. As the ballot boxes were transparent, international observers could see that there were no manipulations, Stadler said.”
That will be the Johann Stadler who is a member of the fascist party founded by Haider – another link to the Austrian Anschluss vote. There were also representatives of the Hungarian fascist party Jobbik among the observers – one of who was quoted as saying that they had to discourage our own odious fascist Nick Griffin from taking up his invitation to observe. And the Ukrainians are the only ones with a fascist problem?
Ballot boxes were transparent so that international observers could see there were no manipulations – what planet are you living on!
ESLO
100% correct. The Polish guy on Russia Today from the “observers” was also a paid up fascist.
In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.
“Therefore the lawyer, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, must be the front man. Although he too is a Fascist, his track-record in Fascism is not as well-known.”
Perhaps that might be because he doesn’t have one. Will you get it into your thick head that it is possible for Ukrainians to oppose Yanukovych and Russian interference in their country with being a fascist – and that your thinking that they are incapable of acting on their own behalf and initiative without the help of outside powers is quite frankly verging on racism.
Mary; “Craig. I resent the Putinista tag being applied. Same style as the trolls here who have labelled us Murrayistas!
Same style derived from the same mentality.
Craig; “In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP”
Pretty low Craig; is it sometime you felt in your water ? For real racist sentiment try looking at older quotes of those who are backing your Ukraine position.
(“Putinistas” again ? and after Mary asked you so nicely)
Johann Stadler and his politics are irrelevant to the point of my comment. I allowed his words to answer RD’s question:
“Clear Perspex ballot boxes in the Crimea – now why would that be??”
I can see why transparent ballot boxes would help prevent vote rigging – it would be obvious if someone tried to post more than one paper, for example. I can’t see how transparent boxes could be used to pressure people into voting a particular way, as you and RD seem to imply. If the electors fold their voting paper before posting it, nobody can see who they’ve voted for.
I’d be grateful to you and/or Resident Dissident for explaining how transparent ballot boxes could aid electoral fraud.
sorry, above addressed to ESLO
ESLO at 1.14 p.m.
You do not have to be a historian to understand this sign! And look who’s on the platform with him!
“Perhaps that might be because he doesn’t have one. Will you get it into your thick head that it is possible for Ukrainians to oppose Yanukovych and Russian interference in their country with being a fascist – and that your thinking that they are incapable of acting on their own behalf and initiative without the help of outside powers is quite frankly verging on racism.”
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Yatsenyuk&src=hash
I don’t like to be thought of as having a thick head, but I’ll admit to the odd hangover. I will not retaliate.
Nice one, John.
There do seem to be quite a few posters here now making excuses for these fascists in the Kiev govt.
Some of them will of course just be neocons using the thugs to their own ends, but neocons are close enough to fascists that it makes little difference for those on the receiving end of their violence and plunder.
craig 17 Mar, 2014 – 1:08 pm
“In fact I only twigged this morning that several of the Putinistas here are BNP.”
The above comment was a direct follow-on from Craig agreeing with ESLO’s attack on my post. I hope it wasn’t made in reference to me. That would disappoint me in several ways. Perhaps I’m being a little over-sensitive here – I certainly hope so.
Craig, take it as a healthy sign that many of your regulars are not slaves to your opinion. Labelling and smearing us is below your usually high standards.
Grownups.
Am I getting this right?
We’ve not got to point out, to show photos, to link to videos of US sponsored fascists who now rule in Kiev ‘cos… ‘cos a bunch of fascists got on a plane to go and watch the referendum in Crimea and anyway lots of people who want to criticise the US axis for kicking the whole thing off are closet BNP supporters…or something.
I’m getting a bit confused here. Which ones are the good fascists? Please tell me!
A Node,
I should be most upset if everyone agreed with me all the time! We have several new commenters out of the woodwork, some of whom are BNP.
John Goss,
I am genuinely unsure. Frankly I know nothing of the man’s past, but it would take more than that single photo to convince me. The raised hand and fingers are blurred compared to the rest of the photo, which might mean the hand was moving more than the arm – it is perfectly possible he was just waving to someone far off – it would need a video, or more than a single photo of someone with their arm raised, to convince me he is a Nazi.
Look on the bright side, guys.
At least we may now refer to habby and crew as “Eminences”, were we so childish and bothered.
Just looked at it again. The right hand is very definitely very blurred and ill-defined compared to the left one. This looks like it was shot in low light and most likely it’s moving. Or could be a photoshop.
As I say, I know nothing of the man’s past. But certainly that photo is not sufficient evidence.
Ahhh.
The footballers defence.