I am not opposed to self determination for the people of Crimea; I am opposed to this referendum. Nobody can seriously argue there has been a chance for a campaign in which different viewpoints can be freely argued, with some equality of media access and freedom from fear and intimidation.
Hitler invaded Austria on 12 March 1938. The Anschluss was confirmed in a plebiscite on 10 April, just 28 days later, by a majority of 99.7%. Putin has done it in less than half of the time, and I have no doubt will produce a similar result in the vote. The point is not whether or not the vote reflects the will of the people – the point is whether the will of the people has been affected by military demonstration, fear, hysterically induced national psychosis and above all an absence of space for debate or alternative viewpoints.
There is no reasonable claim that Putin’s swift plebiscite is necessary because of an imminent threat of violence against Russians in Crimea. There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position. Putin has proved that force majeure is powerful in international politics, and there is every reason to believe that he could have finessed international acceptance of such a referendum in due course. Germany, in particular, is much more interested in its own energy supplies than in the rights of Ukraine. In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest. It is very likely such a genuine referendum would have gone in Russia’s favour. But the disadvantages of open debate about the merits and demerits of Putin’s Russia, and his own self-image as the man of military prowess, led Putin to take the more violent course.
The vote yesterday in the Security Council should give every Putinista pause. Not even China voted with Russia. The Africans and South Americans voted solidly against. That is not because they are prisoners or puppets of the United States – they are not. Neither did they take the easy road of abstention. The truth is that what Putin is doing in Crimea is outrageous.
What happens now is going to be interesting. I greatly fear that Putin is looking to stir up as much disorder in Ukraine’s Eastern provinces as possible, perhaps with the aim of promoting civil war in which Russia can covertly intervene, rather than open invasion, but I do not put the latter past him. Against that, I am quite sure Russia did not expect the extreme diplomatic isolation, in fact humiliation, it suffered at the UN yesterday. I am hopeful Russia may step back from the brink.
The EU I expect to do nothing. Sanctions will target a few individuals who are not too close to Putin and don’t keep too many of their interests in the West. I don’t think Alisher Usmanov and Roman Abramovic need lose too much sleep, that Harrods need worry or that we will see any flats seized at One Hyde Park. (It is among my dearest wishes one day to see One Hyde Park given out for council housing.) Neither do I expect to see the United States do anything effective; its levers are limited. I doubt we have seen the last of Mr Putin’s adventurism.
Human society is not perfectible, which does not mean we should not try. I believe western democracy, particularly in its social democratic European manifestation from approximately 1945 to 2000, achieved a high level of happiness for its ordinary people and an encouraging level of equality. For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.
But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse. Wealth inequality is even more extreme. Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced. Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does. His conflicts of interest with the west have deluded a surprising number of people here into believing that Putin in some ways represents an ideological alternative. He does not. He represents a capitalism still more raw, an oligarchy still more corrupt, a wealth gap still greater and growing still quicker, a debate still more circumscribed. It speaks to the extreme political failure of the western political system, and the degree of the alienation of which I spoke, that so many strive to see something beautiful in the ugly features of Putinism.
CanSpeccy
I think it is very probable that, with a proper vote under proper conditions, as you put it – ie a genuine debate with all sides able to put their views and no armed intimidation – Crimea would vote to join Russia. I also think that would have been a good outcome. See my first post on this subject.
But I certainly do not think that result would have brought a 97per cent majority – exactly Hitler’s plebiscite in Austria – in a region where abut 40% of the population is not Russian. I am amazed that none of the Putinistas exhibit no shame at the 97% claim.
Oddie
The secret state of the US brain-washed Obama from an early age to become the credible neo-colonial black leader to re-take Africa into colonial ownership. Chaos under Al Qaida is the plan, to allow Africom a platform for legitimate invasion. The US doesn’t care about a little Islamisation, it has its own program of born-again Christianity and it wants people to be absorbed with religion while it re-conquers the wealth of the African continent.
Did the West not use the Arab in the Carribean slave trade as an excuse to rescue Africa from the predations of Islam? The Arab slave trade to the Ottoman Empire was even more brutal, more lethal in the transportation, and male slaves were castrated before exportation because Islam does not permit human mutilation.
The West knows how to prepare its workers, by torturing them in the cells of dictators like Gaddafi, and it knows how to utilise them after their release to terrorise their fellow Muslims.
This crap has been going on since time. You think they don’t know, the UKUSIS, how to get their hands on African land?
Macky,
Nobody has been more outspokenly critical of the West than I. I think that Chomsky’s quotation is absolutely right, and not only do I subscribe to it, I very actively live by it. I don’t think it is anything to do with self-hatred for the left to criticize the West.
What is very, very wrong is for the intellectually challenged to conclude that the West is bad, therefore anybody who is not the West is good. That is a logical fallacy so childish it is difficult to take you seriously.
What if you go back to my original post and tell me what is wrong about the observations I make about Putin’s Russia?
Craig
As I’m sure you know, many religious zealots started as Communists, because it promises change of ownership and the possibility of personal profiteering. Then they discovered that the combination of twisting the meaning of ancient texts and getting paid by the neo=conservative, neo-colonials was more lucrative, safer, and more the way the wind was blowing.
So they switched, and they mock Socialism, as you do, in favour of “”neo-Liberalism””. If Socialism was to return to profitability for them, they would swing back to Socialism. The political mind is only interested in personal power and gain. I find this quibbling about the rights and wrongs of politics rather annoying. Politics is power, and right now the money is with the Neo-Cons.
Question is: Are you, Craig Murray, involved with them? In the betting sense I mean. It appears to many of your readers that you have changed sides from standing against the NeoLiberal cause, to standing with them.
Craig; “What is very, very wrong is for the intellectually challenged to conclude that the West is bad, therefore anybody who is not the West is good. That is a logical fallacy so childish it is difficult to take you seriously.”
With due respect Craig, nobody, let alone “many”, are actually holding up Putin as a role model of perfection !
Are you not familiar with the concept of “The Lesser Evil”, or “The Greater Good” ?
“What if you go back to my original post and tell me what is wrong about the observations I make about Putin’s Russia?”
Maybe not much, but not really inclined to take the trouble if you cannot respond to the points I have already made to your original Post; in fact I can only assume that you haven’t seen it, otherwise you wouldn’t have just made that childish fallacy that you yourself project on others, as my comment about you imagining people “admiring his warts” had pointed out;
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/the-wrong-referendum-the-wrong-saviour/#comment-446358
Herbie 12.05 a.m. Thanks for that video of the peaceful villages turning back a Ukrainian military column. As it says “Nobody wants war and bloodshed”.
“Мирные жители маленького городка остановили военную колонну и повернули её назад. Никто не хочет войны и крови.”
In fact Craig, you should know that Al Qaida is a religious front for taking land and power from the neo-Cons. The deal is, we Neo-colonisers get the big stuff, the ports, the Libyan oil-wells, banks, money, investments etc and we provide the rain of hell fire of modern industrial weaponry on the civilian populations; you the self-proclaimed defenders of Islam/ political profiteermongers in disguise get the land, the people, the bits and bobs of jails, police stations etc and you provide the moral creed, because the whole world knows that we have none.
We are bankrupt morally so you provide the moral cause. I scratch your back you scratch my balls. No more ticks. Not just fuck the EU, fuck the whole damn Islamic and non-Islamic world.
“Putinistas”
Uncle Craig, are you trolling your own blog?
I see plenty here who tirelessly point out the fact that what has happened in Ukraine is a US coup. While they may get called names, even by you, the evidence, in the form of words from Nuland’s and Ashton’s own mouths, is widely available and cannot be ignored forever.
While no effort is spared by some posters to vilify Putin, I see few signs of true “Putinistas” here. Those who you seek to insult seem to me simply to consider the rights of Ukrainians, including the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine, to have been grossly and criminally disregarded and betrayed by both Ukrainian putchists and their Western handlers. The same can be said regarding the large numbers of the original Maidan protesters who, while opposing the corruption of the ousted government and maybe a little naive regarding the EU, do not deserve to have unelected ultra-right ministers foisted on them.
Using Dad’s name-calling tactics will not persuade anyone who cares do look beyond the threadbare propaganda. Why you do not address the Nuland and Ashton recordings? These are surely genuine conspirators, caught in the act that set the scene for Crimea’s secession. Does pointing this out make me a “Putinista” or conspiracy theorist?
the pics on this page allegedly show members in Kiev voting multiple times in the vote to ouster Yanukovych, even tho each member has a single ID card. this inclus Yats. i think i’ve understood that much, but someone might be able to translate or add more detail:
http://hinter-der-fichte.blogspot.fr/2014/03/ukraine-die-kernluge-von-der-legitimen.html
Sofia
Have addressed those points ad nauseam on earlier threads. I think Nuland’s vile blabberings had very little effect and you overrate the capacity of western diplomats and security services to affect events on the ground. There have been a great many CIA-backed coups, Egypt being a recent example, but with that and most like Nkrumah in Ghana or Allende in Chile they operate trough the military. Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect.
Macky,
Yes. If you bother to read my post, you will see that I believe Putin is the greater evil. That is precisely the point I am asking you to address, and you refuse. What is wrong in my portrayal of Putin’s Russia?
A pretty even handed post from Craig here; he is right to point out that, despite the hasty referendum, vote later on ,in a less charged atmosphere, would also likely result in a resounding vote for reunion with Russia.
He is also right to call out Putin on his contempt for the ‘international community’ and ‘international law’ over his actions in Ukraine. Hell, his arrogance in this regard even bears comparison with Israeli and US disregard for the same, when it suits them!
An excellent thread as well; Oddie, thanks for the links, and Res Diss, thanks for your pathetic attempt at 08.51 yesterday to resurrect the ‘domino theory’ from the dustbin of history- I really enjoyed that.
93% at last count. Rule of thumb: any referendum where one side gets above 70% is likely bent. Because people are rarely that much in agreement … about anything really. Oh I suppose there are excepetions.
Still, you have to laugh at the West and its ‘refusal to recognize’ the result. We are like a small child who refuses to recognise that the ice-cream actually belonged to our younger sibling. Just because we think it, doesn’t make it so. The Crimean referendum was, well, let’s say it was equally as bent as the Ukranian revolution. We may quibble about the ‘equally’, but I’m being bi-partisan here.
Honestly? I think we’ve just played right into Putin’s hands. One might almost argue that the stitch up occurred in private (Syria talks anyone?) and everything has been for show. I don’t, finally, believe this, because our foreign policy is way too stupid to be this devious, and reckon it’s much more likely that once the Ukranian revolution occurred, nobody in the West really gave much thought to what would happen in Crimea. When I say ‘nobody’ I really mean ‘nobody with influence’. Doubtless lots of intelligent people thought it through carefully, it’s just that these lunatic neocons don’t really listen to intelligent people. Indeed, intelligent people seem to get sacked, demoted, sidelined or – if in doubt – dealt with in more sinister ways. Wonder why everything goes tits up so often? Hm.
Господин Евгений
“The video you keep banging on about is a propaganda masterpiece, inviting us to jump to lots of conclusions based on a few isolated factoids taken out of current and historical context. Ignorami like you make the perfect target audience. Your argument in support of this video boils down to this – MSM lied to us about Iraq, ergo MSM always lie. A classic non-sequitur.”
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! The video does not show isolated facts taken out of “current and historical context”. It shows that fascists have taken over Kiev, that Victoria Nugent does not want the public to know this, so she advises that Klitschko should not have a deputy prime-minister role, and likewise the Svoboda Fascist, anti-semitic and xenophobic godfather, Oleh Tyannybok, must also stay out of the limelight. Therefore the lawyer, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, must be the front man. Although he too is a Fascist, his track-record in Fascism is not as well-known. Watch it and argue the facts. Otherwise everybody on the blog will know who the real ignoramus is. By their fruits shall ye know them.
By the way, I bang on about it because none of it has not been covered by our media. The media lied about Iraq, they lie about the situation in Ukraine. The war on Islam was created to allow for this perpetual lying. I do not blame the newsreaders, they have families to keep, lives to live. You need to wake up Господин Евгений.
John Goss,
Are you implying that Klitschko is a fascist? On what evidence? I should say I know very little about the man other than that he was considered very bright for a boxer (!), but I don’t think I have heard him called a fascist before.
Guano
Am I a neo-liberal? Did you read the post?
“For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.”
Neo-liberals say that kind of thing, of course.
“Anybody who isn’t the West must be a good guy. Everyone who doesn’t agree must be a neo-liberal, or as was above suggested, mentally ill.” I should be quite interested to know what ideological background some of the strange commenters here come from (not you, Guano, I know your viewpoint of course).
For lefties everyone in Ukraine is a fascist now. Shows how effective Putin’s propaganda is. There is a blame for western media which discredited itself, but why do lefties not question putin’s sources? Why do they take everything in putin’s sources as to be true, while in fact many Russian intellectuals many of whom could not for a second be abused as Russian democrat (yes yes democrat is abusive word in Russian) question putin’s propaganda vs Ukraine.
Blind western lefties at their best.
And referendum in Crimea is as expected 97% despite the fact that over 40% of population did not participate.
It is fascinating to watch how every details of Maidan being investigated with huge leftie magnifying glass BUT none of them have brain cells large enough to acknowledge that so called Pro-Russian self defence forces were in fact Russian military personnel.
After this mad lefties discredited themselves in my eyes. Their extremely biased approach to everything makes it impossible to put even little trust in their words.
Crimean Tatars boycotted the referendum. Probably wrong tactical move, time will show.
It will be unfortunate to see how long it will take before they made forgotten wrongdoings of Russians on them. Centuries of abuse and decades of genocidal approach that Crimean Tatars suffered from Russians.
Yet another aspect of Russian policy in Crimea being hugely ignored by mad western lefties. And the same people will build mega conspiracy theories on something that is not so obvious but where western powers are involved and will ignore mountain of historical and cultural evidences which threatens their biased anti-western (by proxy) pro Russian approach.
Shame on you mad lefties.
Uncle Craig. Thanks.
“Their ability to foment mass popular unrest is overrated – the most they can do is try to channel genuine popular anger that pre-exists. This they were trying to do but with limited effect.” …..except that Nuland suggested Yats as PM, and so it came to pass. She also suggested Sherry as the UN patsy, and so it came to pass, etc. …..all $5 billoin worth.
If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and has a collar round it’s neck that says “dog”, how come you believe it’s Bambi?
Craig. I resent the Putinista tag being applied. Same style as the trolls here who have labelled us Murrayistas!
Is John Pilger (another hero of mine) a Putinista too for writing this?
The Forgotten Coup – How the Godfather Rules from Canberra to Kiev
By John Pilger
Washington’s role in the fascist putsch against an elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record. Since 1945, dozens of governments, many of them democracies, have met a similar fate, usually with bloodshed.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37970.htm
In all the Crimea shenanigans western lefties “surprisingly” unnoticed that Russian Duma passed the law making russophobia a criminal offence. Now Russia is multi-ethnic federal state with dozen of autonomous republics in 8 of which Russians themselves are minority.
Now the question is why making only russophobia a criminal offence which interprets as when Tatars or Chechens say or do something that can be interpreted as russophobia they can be imprisoned. And when Tatars or Chechens are offended or worse killed (this is widely happening in Russia) it is not a problem.
Some hard-liners in Duma even suggested to use new anti-russophobia legislation in cases when people (even ethnic Russians) display disagreement with government polices (which according to them) directed to the defence of Russian interests.
Not sure about you but I feel that we have witnessed similar laws in Germany in 1930th?
Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
16 Mar, 2014 – 8:32 am
“Spot on, Craig, I’d agree with 95% of what you say.”
What is the 5% of Craig’s post you disagree with Habbabkuk?
Mary
Those who do not question putin’s propaganda sources and mirror everything that these sources are proposing (fascist in Ukraine, Russians are under threat, Crimea is Russian, f..ck international law, f…ck Crimean Tatars, f..ck Ukrainians etc) are all putinista.
In the last 3 weeks there was nothing objectively reported in Russian media, with many such links provided here as references without questioning truth. Everything from Russian military presence cover-up (which none of the mad lefties has accepted), to threat to ethnic Russian was made by putin’s propaganda machine.
It is huge shame that very people who questioned intervention to Iraq and cover ups in Libya and Syria are today so BLIND to the cover up of truth by Putin. This make me very angry. I cannot believe that western people so ignorant when it comes to former soviet union.
Mary
You are hardly contributing to the argument. Despite the title Pilger’s article says nothing whatever about the Ukraine.
Craig; “Yes. If you bother to read my post, you will see that I believe Putin is the greater evil. That is precisely the point I am asking you to address, and you refuse. What is wrong in my portrayal of Putin’s Russia?”
Wow ! Then again it’s been obvious for some time now that for you, Putin is the New Hitler !
So despite saying you agreeing with the Chomsky quote, in fact you don’t agree with all of it, as he mentions that the US “happens to be the larger component of international violence”
So in all serious, you are claiming that Putin’s Russia is not only comparable to the greatest & most powerful Empire in history, but that is actually even a greater evil ! I think you will find that most rational people, even in the West (!), will find the first part of this totally absurd, and the second part, delusional to the point of questioning either your sanity or your motives.
Indeed the US always tops the Polls in surveys rating countries that people feel are most dangerous & a threat to a peaceful world. You only have to look at its record of non-stop continuous war against the Third World,(& even nefarious intervention in other Western countries), and then try to match it with a comparable Russian one;
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html
This partial limited list doesn’t really convey the true evil involved for the tens of millions perished souls, or the perhaps irreversible cost to the our ecosystem. Yes millions also died under Soviet era repression, etc, and there is currently still the War on Terror like campaigns against various separatist/extremist movements,but the fact that you chose not to differentiate between an incredibly active, ruthless, rampantly & aggressive expanding Empire, that is constantly provoking by pushing right up against Russia’s borders, to Putin’s reactive attempts at defending itself and its interests against US expansion, also speaks volumes about your position.
The US is of course, the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons, and really has crazed people in positions of power that actually advocate that not only is a nuclear war winnable, but that the US should launch a preemptive nuclear strike to ensure that it’s winnable !
I could go on & on, but let me address your point about your portrayal of Russia under Putin;
“But every single one of those things is true of Putin’s Russia, and in fact it is much worse. Wealth inequality is even more extreme. Toleration of dissent and of different lifestyles even less evident, the space for debate even more constricted, the contempt for international law still more pronounced. Putin’s own desire for imperialist sphere of influence politics leads him into conflict with aggressive designs of the west, as for example in Syria and Iran. The consequence can be an accidental good, in that Putin has thwarted western military plans. But that is not in any sense from a desire for public good, and if Putin can himself get away with military force he does. “
Each & every point you make here, can be countered, questioned or refuted, but there’s not even the need to do so, because even if every point was 100% correct, the colossal economic & military power that is the US, that is a law unto itself, with its worldwide network of military bases and vassal states, and has been on a military roll since the breakup of the USSR, smashing country after country, moving closer and closer to Russia itself, is rightly & clearly considered by the majority of the planet’s population as thee greater evil, despite all that you & a few similarly irrational people may try to argue.
Craig:
“I am not opposed to self-determination for the people of Crimea…”
Nor am I Craig but the US/EU/UK/Kiev is.
“There is absolutely no reason that a referendum could not have been held at the end of this year, in a calm and peaceful atmosphere, after everybody had a chance to campaign and express their position.”
I am being realistic Craig and I do not support what Russia has done but you have to look at what the west has done also.
The west does not care about the people of Ukraine any more than Putin.
Kiev and the west would not allow a calm and peaceful atmosphere to develop through to the end of the year. You must know that deep down.
The Crimean Tatars are boycotting the poll now and would probably boycott a poll at the end of the year, backed by the west, to make it seem, to the outside world, fraudulent and illegitimate.
The west would supply money and logistics to the anti-Russia opposition and stir-up trouble and create division which will inevitably result in death and catalyse another “regime change” this time in Crimea.
The poll today or a poll at the end of the year, if it took place, would likely have the same effect i.e. a majority for union with Russia.
If Putin’s Russia is as bad as you say why would a majority in Crimea vote for closer ties?
“In twenty years in diplomacy, I never saw a single instance of Germany having any interest in rights other than its own national self-interest.”
Is that not true of the UK?
“For approximately 20 years unfortunately we have witnessed a capitalism more raw and unabated than ever before, and massively growing levels of wealth inequality, a reduction in state provision for the needy, a distortion of state activity further to line the pockets of the rich, ever increasing corruption among the elite and growing levels of social immobility and exclusion, a narrowing of the options presented by major political parties until there is not a cigarette paper between them and their neo-conservative agendas, and a related narrowing by the mainstream media of the accepted bounds of public debate, with orchestrated ridicule of opinions outside those bounds. Democracy, as a system offering real choice to informed electors, has ceased to function in the West leading to enormous political alienation. On the international scene the West has retreated from the concept of international law and, heady with the temporary unipolar US military dominance, adopted aggressive might is right polices and a return of the practices of both formal and informal imperialism.”
Ah! Some balance at last.
Perhaps the above paragraph is the 5% of your post Craig that Habbabkuk disagrees with.
By the way, disparaging people that disagree with you (deluded lefties, Putinistas) does not help your arguments and damages your credibility.
Klitschko claiming to be a democrat is a bit like Tony Blair claiming to be a socialist. Because of his boxing skills, (I would not wish to get in a ring with him) he has become feted in the west and no doubt experienced the best of western hospitality, but not the reality, and may genuinely wish to be part of Europe and see Ukraine changed on western models, but I would not trust his website http://klichko.org/en/ any more than I would trust the website of any politician. In fairness I cannot find any direct reference to Klitschko being a fascist and withdraw that label, though he does associate with fascists, and that taints him in my mind. He also associates with Victoria Nuland, and that further taints him. Anonymous Ukraine has downloaded hundreds of emails from the UDAR headquarters so if Klitschko was making Fascist statements I am sure somebody would have picked this up.
We are thankful to Anonymous Ukraine for averting false flag events.
http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_14/Operation-Independence-Continues-Anonymous-exposes-US-invasion-plans-in-Ukraine-7517/
My comment earlier reads as if Putin is a hero of mine. He is most definitely not.
~~~
Conjunction Try reading Pilger’s opening paragraph and about MI5 activities. Do you think that we have not been involved in the Ukraine putsch?
BrianFujisan
Mother Agnes Mariam will get more respect from Al Qaida for her obvious faith and courage, than from a western secular, hand-wringing audience who have their fingers in their ears about all religious things.