The number of people still prepared to defend the Iraq War in public is tiny. The interesting thing is the very strong correlation between those people, and those prepared to pretend to give credence to the farcical sexual allegations about Julian Assange. Zoe Williams Guardian piece about what a jolly good chap Blair is I find breathtaking. War crimes like Blair’s result in terrible anguish for millions. I am prepared for purposes of argument to believe that Williams’ anguish for female victims of crime is genuine; why she can’t extend that to the tens of thousands of women who were raped because of Blair’s Iraq War, or had the still worse agony of seeing their children killed and mutilated I don’t know. Nick Cohen is just very, very sad. I just hold up these two in the hope that those deceived by feminist political correctness into following their lead against Assange will see to what they are subscribing.
Rather a side issue, but even if we accept Zoe Williams view that dead Iraqi children don’t matter, she appears not to have noticed that Blair introduced tuition fees, academies, kick-started NHS privatization, allowed the banksters’ bonanza leading to worldwide economic crash and oversaw the greatest widening of the gap between rich and poor in British history.
On the newly found religiosity of the war criminals.
Tony Blair, George W. Bush and David Cameron
Hi-jacking God?
Felicity Arbuthnot / April 14th, 2014
http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/04/tony-blair-george-w-bush-and-david-cameron/
The same subject is written about here by a Palestinian. Very moving.
Twelve Years a Slave, Sixty Six Years a Living Dead
by Faysal Mikdadi
http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/view/1800/twelve-years-a-slave-sixty-six-years-a-living-dead
…and btw Ba’al you are pretty fond of the sound of your own voice. Second time you have joined in having a dig at me after someone else has had a go. Away with the pair of you. It is not a competition here for goodness’ sake.
Oh. Thought you didn’t read my offerings….
I refer the honourable lady to the notion that although I agree with her on several issues, and although her posts do not contain so much her own voice as that of the news items she faithfully reproduces, she herself does bang on a bit, and is rather apt to see mild criticism as a deadly insult requiring retaliation. Can I add that I find her politically naive, strident, unselective, and often someone I can safely scroll past as I am well aware, and have been for years, of the points she is making?
No, it’s not a competition. But I expect you’ll have something to say, nevertheless.
Afrend (the Thinking Blogger’s Friend)
“Habbabreak simply allows me to stop listening for a moment. After hearing someone shout for so long..”
______________________
So you’ve been around for a long time – in that case why don’t you use your usual handle to inform about ‘Habbabreak’?
Are you frit?
Ba’al Zevul and Mary
Official Notice : I decline all responsibility for the current spat between the above-mentioned two Eminent posters.
“Risible piece of tendentious drivel from putative novelist James Meek. His incisive, rapier like analysis is almost as dreadful as his vapid excuses for literature”
Cannot even make up your own vacuous insults so you now have to rely on others?
“On the newly found religiosity”
Hardly.
free speech ..??!!
http://talk.electricianforum.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/angry_explode.gif
Kempe 12 Apr, 2014 – 6:19 pm
Here is your comment from …..
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/the-feminist-defence-of-blowing-out-the-brains-of-small-children/comment-page-3/#comment-452491
… in its entirety.
It’s so typical of your unsubstantiated-smear-and-run tactics that I thought I’d give it the once over. I haven’t included links but I will be happy to do so if you challenge anything I’ve said.
When Gaddafi bloodlessly deposed the Western-appointed puppet-leader King Idris of Libya, child mortality was 70/1000. Under Gadaffi, this figure dropped to 19/1000, an improvement of 368% which undoubtedly would have continued if not for Western intervention. The situation is now so chaotic that no figures are available. But it is certain that mortality rates will have risen dramatically. Already, parts of Libya are being compared to Iraq’s Fallujah for deformed baby rates due to Depleted Uranium. To summerise that:
Child mortality in Libya before Gaddafi = bad
Child mortality in Libya during Gaddafi = good
Child mortality in Libya after Gaddafi = bad
As above, things dramatically improved under Gaddafi and dramatically worsened after his murder.
You can’t dismantle the rest, it’s true and if you could have refuted it, you would have.
As pointed out, elsewhere, Gadaffi was due to be honoured by the U.N. before Gaddafi’s murder. The post you linked to acknowledged this and complained that the UN should retract the honours it bestowed on him, saying “It’s time for the UN to formally apologize for having legitimized Gaddafi’s regime by electing Libya to its Human Rights Council last year, to the Security Council in 2008-2009, and as General Assembly president in 2009″
“allegedly”!!!!!! “After some 8,000 bombing raids, with estimates of 4 bombs used per attack NATO has already dropped over 30,000 bombs on Libya. That’s almost 200 bombs per day for 6 months, some tens of thousands of tons of high explosives. With an estimated 2 Libyans killed per bomb and without a single NATO casualty the Western regimes have massacred over 60,000 Libyans in the past half year with the rebels themselves having said there have been 50,000 Libyan deaths. One hell of a humanitarian intervention isn’t it?”
No, that is not the truth, it is a lie. The system of government was called ‘direct democracy’ which is a form of democracy which many people, including myself, believe is a better system than the U.K.’s.
Another lie. The official minimum wage in Lybia was the equivalent of 4,286 US dollars/month, the highest in Africa and higher than many European countries. Then you bear in mind that taxes were very low, education and health care free, married couple grants, shares of oil revenue, and that rent and utilities were heavily government-subsidised.
He spent most of his revenues on his country’s infrastructure to the benefit of all Libyans and subsiding their standard of life. He also lent heavily to other African countries to aid them. His government’s finances and revenue were open and transparent. His general behaviour and love of his country and people doesn’t fit with the image of a crook plundering his country’s resources – he did not lead an opulent lifestyle. Please don’t bother telling me how much his palaces cost, or I will tell you he lived in a tent. Western propaganda has falsely claimed that Libya’s foreign investments were Gaddafi salting away money. I’ve no idea if they were in his name or not, but I don’t believe that he was stealing them. I can’t prove this, but you can’t prove differently.
So your comment just boils down to a lot of smears. The facts and figures of Gaddafi’s Libya are on record and you are not disputing them, just trying to insinuate that somehow they mean the opposite of what they say. Why, Kempe? What exactly is your message on this one? You aren’t silly enough to claim things have improved since Gaddafi’s murder and you haven’t answered me when I asked if you agreed they’d got much worse. So what is your point?
Seriously, the only plausible scenario I can come up with is that, for some reason or another, you dispute anything which doesn’t fit the “The West is the good guys” narrative. I’ve described elsewhere on this thread why I post on this blog. I would be very interested and grateful if you would explain why you do.
ESLO; “Cannot even make up your own vacuous insults so you now have to rely on others?”
Bless ! You’re upset nobody wanted a part of your poo-sandwich ! Judging by the comments left, hardly anybody does either.
Ben-Smoker, joker, red-eyed toker
May I make a polite request that you don’t join in conversations I’m having with other posters. Your style is often confusing and tends to distract rather than contribute. It breaks up the discussion. Here’s an example:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/04/the-feminist-defence-of-blowing-out-the-brains-of-small-children/comment-page-3/#comment-452669
There is another example on the next thread right now. The thread is barely started and you have posted 7 times out of the 24 comments. I can’t see any relevance to the topic in your posts. I suggest to you that you are doing more harm than good by confusing Craig’s message at such an early stage.
A Node; I agree the comment you linked to was unclear, but my comments on the new thread, imo, are directly connected to the issue of UK/US collusion. If I am off-topic, craig usually asks me how it is relevant, and I reply. Sorry. I will try not to intrude on your discussions.
Ben
Thanks.
This story is still running. I put it up earlier here and totally agree with what is being said.
Anger as Stonegate hedge fund fare dodger ‘buys silence’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27019782
~~
Swallowed something poisonous Ba’al Zevul? Your invective and ad hominems were unnecessary.
From Our Own Correspondent
A Happy Ending
First broadcast: Saturday 12 April 2014
The stories behind the stories.
In this edition:
why Germany’s ambivalence towards Russia may emerge as east meets west to discuss Ukraine next week;
West Bengal plans to restore the lost glory of Kolkata – the idea is, we hear, to make it a bit more like London;
life gets harder in the Gaza Strip as the interim government in neighbouring Egypt cranks up the pressure on Hamas;
‘Isn’t that you know who?’ A chance meeting, in a Budapest hospital, with the man who is arguably Europe’s most controversial leader.
And what happened when our man in Marrakech asked the king to step in to save an ancient tradition from oblivion.
I thought Yolande Knell’s documentary piece about life in Gaza was fair but Adie’s introduction was appalling. All the old memes about Hamas were trotted out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b040h14m 12mins 26secs in
I have, wherever possible, provided sources for my information; reliable sources at that. I suppose nobody bothered to read the 2010 Amnesty report?
Libya was a democracy in name only, power was centred around Gaddafi and parliament existed solely to rubber stamp his decisions. If you want to talk about child mortality figures in 1969 the UK figure was 19.2 so the UK has achieved a 362% improvement which is in line with Libya. I’ve not seen any figures whatsoever that substantiate claims that child mortality in Libya has increased since 2012.
Whilst we’re on the subject of health care in Libya I think this case provided a useful insight into conditions inside the country under Gaddafi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_trial_in_Libya
Indeed the full effects of the regime’s failure to tackle AIDS are only just beginning to come to light.
I also can’t understand how someone with a $120 million private jet can’t be said to be living an opulent lifestyle, Gaddafi didn’t live in a tent, he had one set up in the grounds of his palace, the one bombed by the Yanks in 1985, where he’d go and meditate. I find it amazing how the revisionist propaganda regarding Mummar has been so eagerly swallowed.
It also seems to have been conveniently forgotten that Gaddafi’s overthrow began as a grass roots uprising in mid-February; UN sanctioned military intervention didn’t commence until 19th March.
Do I think it a good thing that Gaddafi has gone? Yes, although I deplore the violence that entailed. Do I think things have improved for the Libyans? Not sure, revolutions rarely produce good results in the short term but they at least have the opportunity now they’re free to form political parties without fear of execution and no longer live in the most censored state in the arab world.
https://cpj.org/reports/2006/05/10-most-censored-countries.php
SAVE OUR NHS
Who works for Monitor.
https://twitter.com/h_jarman/status/428198335883669505/photo/1
Monitor –
1
Monitor was created in 2004 as the independent regulator for NHS foundation trusts. It assesses NHS trusts for foundation trust status, and authorises those that meet the requirements to be financially sustainable, well led and locally accountable. It regulates NHS foundation trusts and intervenes where trusts are in significant breach of their regulatory conditions to help them become compliant again.
2
The government’s aim is for all NHS trusts to become NHS foundation trusts, either in their own right or after merger or reconfiguration. NHS foundation trusts are self-governing, enjoy greater financial and operational freedoms than NHS trusts, and are directly accountable to Parliament. At 31 December 2013, there were 147 NHS foundation trusts providing acute, mental health, ambulance and community health services.
3
The Health and Social Care Act 2012 expanded Monitor’s role. It is now the sector regulator for health services. Its new responsibilities include ensuring the continuity of services, setting prices for NHS-funded care jointly with NHS England from April 2014, and enforcing rules to prevent anti-competitive behaviour by healthcare commissioners and providers.
4
Monitor is an executive non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department of Health (the Department). It is independent of government in its regulatory judgements. In 2013-14, Monitor’s budget for core running costs is £48 million and it has over 300 staff.
http://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Monitor-regulating-nhs-foundation-trusts.pdf
Kempe
“I have, wherever possible, provided sources for my information; reliable sources at that. I suppose nobody bothered to read the 2010 Amnesty report?”
That reliable source will be the Amnesty International who paid their directors huge golden handshakes from donations, the same Amnesty International that says it does not accept donations from governments or governmental organisations but now admits it did receive grants from the UK Department for International Development, the European Commission, the United States State Department and other governments well known for their human rights concerns. Trustworthy? Demonstrably not. Reliable? A matter of opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“Libya was a democracy in name only” .
That’s just another opinion. My opinion is that the UK is a democracy in name only. I believe that my opinion would have counted for more in Libya’s democracy than the UK’s.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“If you want to talk about child mortality figures in 1969 the UK figure was 19.2 so the UK has achieved a 362% improvement which is in line with Libya”.
So from disparaging Libya’s child mortality rates, you’re now comparing them favourably with the UK’s (they’re slightly better than the UK’s, actually).
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“I’ve not seen any figures whatsoever that substantiate claims that child mortality in Libya has increased since 2012.”
No. Exactly my point, and you can bet that quite some effort will go into ensuring that figures are slow in coming and confusing in nature when they do. And I will bet that when they do come out, they will show a significant increase in infant mortality. Do you want to take me on in that bet? No? Thought not.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“Whilst we’re on the subject of health care in Libya I think this case provided a useful insight into conditions inside the country under Gaddafi.”
Scraping the bottom with that one. Just a red herring. Out of interest, why do you think that Gaddafi would have brought the case? Because he’s a mad dog?
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“I also can’t understand how someone with a $120 million private jet can’t be said to be living an opulent lifestyle”
I can’t understand how someone with two $325 million private jets can’t be said to be living an opulent lifestyle, but I don’t hear you complain about Obama’s Air Force One and Two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_VC-25
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“Do I think things have improved for the Libyans? Not sure, revolutions rarely produce good results in the short term”
Thank you for answering the question. Not sure, eh? How about Iraq, then? Very similar circumstances and justification, and surely enough time has passed to see the green shoots of recovery if they’re ever going to sprout. That’s a direct question by the way. Do you believe the average Iraqi has benefited from Western intervention?
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
” ….but they at least have the opportunity now they’re free to form political parties without fear of execution and no longer live in the most censored state in the arab world.”
Please provide reliable sources for these claims.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
Just in case you missed that question :
Do you believe the average Iraqi has benefited from Western intervention?
Kempe; “Do I think it a good thing that Gaddafi has gone? Yes, although I deplore the violence that entailed. Do I think things have improved for the Libyans? Not sure, revolutions rarely produce good results in the short term but they at least have the opportunity now they’re free to form political parties without fear of execution and no longer live in the most censored state in the arab world”
Ah, the mindset of the R2P Humanitarian Bombers; If you substitute Saddam for Gaddafi & Iraqis for Libyans, you are the R2P pin-up himself, Tony Blair; always trying to excuse away the utter destruction of a whole country, with the resulting uncountable deaths & unimaginable suffering, with the deluded smug self-righteous nonsense about the survivors of the bloodbaths, now being “free” ; in this contra-reality mindset, the newly fail-states newly are actually beacons of democratic freedoms, the daily bombing & killings don’t count, the crippled infrastructure & destroyed social fabric don’t count, the mass murdering torturers now in power in these “liberated” countries don’t count, that practically every citizen has had loved ones killed doesn’t count, that many, if not most, of the refugees trying to flee to a better life are from these same R2P “liberated” countries, don’t count , that the environment & indigenous gene pools are contaminated with radiation, doesn’t count, etc after depressing etc, but it all still doesn’t count if you are from Planet R2P, because “Freedom” has been achieved, “Freedom” to engage in Democracy, and even to have a “Free Press”, yes these are the pay-offs that every Iraqi or Libyan is now endlessly expressing gratitude to us for !
Yet even these trumped “Freedoms”, & other supposed positives, are all self-serving delusional lies, as the reality is the polar opposite, which is why instead of endlessly expresses gratitude, the Libyans, just like the Iraqis started doing almost immediately, will look back & regard the time before the R2P bombs starting falling, as a mythical Golden Age of peace & prosperity, compared to the Hell on Earth they now live in.
Res Diss,
Rarely enough i find myself in complete agreeance with you.
Yes,gambling is indeed a mug’s game.
Which is why i didn’t bet on it :.)
Ray McGovern interviewed by Sophie Shevardnadze on Ukraine.
Europe will now think twice before following Washington’s orders – Ex-CIA Officer Ray McGovern
April 14, 2014 08:30
http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/us-eu-ukraine-sanctions-300/
PS The interviewer’s grandfather, Eduard, is still alive, aged 86.
The BBC have shown footage of these men sitting in a row within a cage. They are on mass trial in Libya and are Gaddafi’s associates. Saif is elsewhere.
Saif al-Islam Gaddafi to be tried with others by video link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27025942
The reporter said something about the trial being proof that a democracy now exists in Libya!
Mary
Cheers
Was just reading about that myself
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/854581.shtml#.U0yz91WnaSo
Feb 19th ”I want to be very clear as we work through these next several days in Ukraine that we’re going to be watching closely and we expect the Ukrainian government to show restraint, to not resort to violence in dealing with peaceful protestors.” Obama
Fast forward two months and we find CIA Director John Brennan in Kiev over the weekend to help the junta prepare for violent action against “terrorists”.
And here are the terrorists deploying bad language against colunms of peaceful tanks, field guns and armoured personnel carriers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsEtQvJaisk
Ba’al Zevul. 14 Apr, 2014 – 11:06 am
“Sorry, Sofia, you have awoken my sleeping pedant there…
…Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
No need to apologise. You have better recall than me. I knew it was in there. At least I got Alice pretty right.
Two letters to the Guardian about their total lack of reporting of Seymour Hersh’s LRB article on the use of chemical weapons in Syria. BLiar of course is/was advocating an attack on Syria.
Doubts about Syrian chemical weapons attacks
The Guardian, Monday 14 April 2014 21.51 BST
Syrian student is fitted in gas mask
Video still showing classroom instruction how to respond to a chemical weapons attack in Aleppo, Syria. Photograph: Uncredited/AP
The current issue of the London Review of Books carries an important article by Seymour Hersh, based on extensive interviews with intelligence staff, in which he argues powerfully that the chemical weapons attacks in Syria, culminating in that of 21 August in which over 1,000 people died, were carried out not by the government but by the opposition. This is confirmed by analytical tests conducted by Porton Down which showed that the gas used in the attacks could not have come from Syrian government stocks.
Further, Hersh asserts, with evidence, that the gas attacks were carried out by Syrian opposition forces in concert with the Turkish government in order to throw blame on the Assad regime, thus crossing Obama’s “red line” and triggering massive strikes by the US and its allies on Syrian government forces and the country’s infrastructure. This is all the more concerning given the highly dubious nature of many of the opposition forces and their links to extremist factions – the danger, yet again, of our getting into bed with some very unpleasant “friends”.
These are very serious claims and it is surprising that you still make the unqualified statement that “the Assad regime … was suspected of being responsible” (Chemical weapons body not ready to investigate Syrian attack claims, 12 April). At the very least, you should be reporting the doubts about who perpetrated these attacks, given that we could have been very nearly dragged into yet another Middle Eastern war on the back of bogus WMD allegations.
Dr Richard Carter
London
Last year you published my letter about how every national newspaper had ignored Seymour Hersh’s exposé of how the Obama administration had “cherry-picked intelligence to justify a strike against Assad” (Letters, 13 December). Confirming Marx’s dictum that “history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce”, Hersh’s new piece in the LRB has once again been blacked out by the press.
Ian Sinclair
London
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/doubts-syria-chemical-weapons-attacks
Hammond is so boring, what was meant to sound threatening just sounded like more dreary nonsense. He was speaking to Thales workers.
Scottish independence: Yes vote ‘risk to jobs’
Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has predicted that a vote for Scottish independence would put defence jobs at risk.
Speaking to defence workers in Glasgow, he claimed the UK’s shared defence forces provide benefits of scale.
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27030447
The Navy chief is saying the same too.
LONDON, April 15 (Reuters) – Scottish independence would weaken Britain’s maritime defences by splitting up bases, infrastructure and staff, the country’s navy chief said, the first serving military boss to give a view on the consequences if Scots vote to break away in September.
Writing in the Daily Telegraph newspaper on Tuesday, Admiral George Zambellas said the nations that remained in the United Kingdom if Scotland left the three-centuries-old union would cope eventually but Scotland would feel a “deeper impact”.
Macky ANode
thank you for posts Re Libya… Sickening and Heartbreaking what we have done over there…Just like Iraq…. and then onto Syria..its All connected Alright…
Reuters reports that Syrian rebels have been using those heavy weapons to shoot downSyrian helicopters and fighter jets.
The ship’s captain was “a Libyan from Benghazi and the head of an organization called the Libyan National Council for Relief and Support,” which was presumably established by the new government.
That means that Ambassador Stevens had only one person—Belhadj—between himself and the Benghazi man who brought heavy weapons to Syria.
Furthermore, we know that jihadists are the best fighters in the Syrian opposition, but where did they come from?
Last week The Telegraph reported that a FSA commander called them “Libyans” when he explained that the FSA doesn’t “want these extremist people here.”
And if the new Libyan government was sending seasoned Islamic fighters and 400 tons of heavy weapons to Syria through a port in southern Turkey—a deal brokered by Stevens’ primary Libyan contact during the Libyan revolution—then the governments of Turkey and the U.S. surely knew about it.
Furthermore there was a CIA post in Benghazi, located 1.2 miles from the U.S. consulate, used as “a base for, among other things, collecting information on the proliferation of weaponry looted from Libyan government arsenals, including surface-to-air missiles” … and that its security features “were more advanced than those at rented villa where Stevens died.”
And we know that the CIA has been funneling weapons to the rebels in southern Turkey. The question is whether the CIA has been involved in handing out the heavy weapons from Libya.
In other words, ambassador Stevens may have been a key player in deploying Libyan terrorists and arms to fight the Syrian government.
more @
http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-efforts-to-arm-jihadis-in-syria-the-scandal-behind-the-benghazi-undercover-cia-facility/5377887
“That reliable source will be the Amnesty International who paid their directors huge golden handshakes from donations, the same Amnesty International that says it does not accept donations from governments or governmental organisations but now admits it did receive grants from the UK Department for International Development, the European Commission, the United States State Department and other governments well known for their human rights concerns. Trustworthy? Demonstrably not. Reliable? A matter of opinion.”
Amnesty paid off two directors who it would appear weren’t up to scratch otherwise the salaries they pay their top people are quite reasonable when compared to the rest of the charity sector. Can’t see how that would affect their trustworthiness anyway. Government donations amount to 1% of Amnesty budget and were donated to Amnesty’s education programme, not for research.
If we’re questioning the reliability of sources I not that the author of a Youtube video posted earlier, Ken O’Keefe, is a well known conspiracy fruitloop and associate of David Icke!
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“Libya was a democracy in name only” .
“That’s just another opinion.”
No it’s an established fact.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“If you want to talk about child mortality figures in 1969 the UK figure was 19.2 so the UK has achieved a 362% improvement which is in line with Libya”.
“So from disparaging Libya’s child mortality rates, you’re now comparing them favourably with the UK’s (they’re slightly better than the UK’s, actually).”
The Libyan figure was presented as though t was something remarkable that could only have been achieved through a direct democracy. My point is that it isn’t and only marginally better than the UK.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“I’ve not seen any figures whatsoever that substantiate claims that child mortality in Libya has increased since 2012.”
“No. Exactly my point, and you can bet that quite some effort will go into ensuring that figures are slow in coming and confusing in nature when they do. And I will bet that when they do come out, they will show a significant increase in infant mortality. Do you want to take me on in that bet? No? Thought not.”
So you admit there’s no evidence to support your claim. The country has just fought a civil war so figures might dip for a year or two before getting back to normal. That’s my prediction for what it’s worth.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“Whilst we’re on the subject of health care in Libya I think this case provided a useful insight into conditions inside the country under Gaddafi.”
“Scraping the bottom with that one. Just a red herring. Out of interest, why do you think that Gaddafi would have brought the case? Because he’s a mad dog?”
Not a red herring at all. There’s no rational reason to sentence anyone to death by firing squad after what was clearly a show trial. It seems to have been done to cover up inadequacies in the Libyan health service.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“I also can’t understand how someone with a $120 million private jet can’t be said to be living an opulent lifestyle”
“I can’t understand how someone with two $325 million private jets can’t be said to be living an opulent lifestyle, but I don’t hear you complain about Obama’s Air Force One and Two.”
Irrelevant. We weren’t talking about Obama, nobody was claiming he lives a frugal lifestyle in a tent.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
“Do I think things have improved for the Libyans? Not sure, revolutions rarely produce good results in the short term”
“Thank you for answering the question. Not sure, eh? How about Iraq, then? Very similar circumstances and justification, and surely enough time has passed to see the green shoots of recovery if they’re ever going to sprout. That’s a direct question by the way. Do you believe the average Iraqi has benefited from Western intervention?”
Iraq was very different. Libya is not subject to occupation by foreign military forces and doesn’t suffer from the internal divisions that are causing the problems in Iraq. I’ve always said the invasion of Iraq was a grave error and my opinion hasn’t changed.
#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
” ….but they at least have the opportunity now they’re free to form political parties without fear of execution and no longer live in the most censored state in the arab world.”
“Please provide reliable sources for these claims.”
I provided a link regarding the “most censored” claim. Here it is again as you obviously missed it:-
https://cpj.org/reports/2006/05/10-most-censored-countries.php
Again:-
http://www.arabipcentre.com/the-internet-in-libya.php
One more:-
http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2013/04/freedom-of-speech-in-libya/
” Under Article 3 of Law No. 71 of 1972 on the Criminalization of Parties, political opposition may be punishable by death.”
http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/country-search-post.cfm?country=Libya
“Yet even these trumped “Freedoms”, & other supposed positives, are all self-serving delusional lies, ”
Freedom is a delusional lie is it?
http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-net/2012/libya#.U05akBZiMy4
You’d scream blue murder if you were blocked from Youtube.