It is quite extraordinary to me how very little publicity is being given to the CIA sponsored military coup in Libya, following the same event in Egypt. The Arab Spring was front page headlines. The CIA and Saudi sponsored cooperation to turn it back to the deepest of freezes virtually gets no mention. This is even true of Libya, where we bombed tens of thousands of civilians to a pulp to ensure the changeover of regime, under the guise of installing democracy. The real aim was never democracy, but a neo-con friendly government, which is so much better secured under the auspices of the CIA.
The sheer arrogance of the political class and mainstream media in their hasty acceptance of the re-establishment of military dictatorship in Egypt, as though nothing wrong had happened, has been breathtaking – and almost entirely unchallenged. Tony Blair’s defence of the coup as the need to overthrow “political Islam” is not stated so openly by governments, but is indeed the motivation. Democracy is a good thing – except for Muslims, is their belief. Yet the government of Saudi Arabia is the most appalling example of entrenched “political Islam” in the world. But as it is unabashedly billionaire and neo-con friendly and pro-Israel, the Arab Gulf State model of political Islam is acceptable to the West. Only democratic, popular, political Islam must be overthrown.
I find amusing that the neo-cons are supported in this by the hard left in the West. It is fascinating to go back to this post and see the comments from those who supported the overthrow of Morsi as a left wing democratic revolution. In many instances, they are precisely the same deluded people who accept without question or query even the most obviously faked Russian propaganda about events in Ukraine (such as the obviously faked photo of the “strangled pregnant woman” in Odessa).
One particularly vile outcome of events in Egypt is David Cameron’s attempt at post hoc justification of Britain’s support of the military coup, by an investigation into the Muslim Brotherhood here as a terrorist organization. As with the periodic persecution of Hizb-ut-Tahrir, the UK is sending a very dangerous message. First we are telling Muslims, with good sense, that they should not support their aims through violence but through democratic political activity. But then we are telling them that they must not do that either, and in fact the only course which is permitted is to adopt the same opinions as ourselves.
Personally I am deeply opposed to theological government. But those who wish to espouse it should have every right to do so by peaceful means. If we seek to remove all outlet for political Islam in the field of free thought and debate, we can scarcely complain if it turns to violence.
On your Global research photos, every one of the photos of charred bodies is of an adult male. Pretty horrible. Absolutely no evidence in these photos of any of them being shot. There is a lot of blood when people are shot, and small neat holes only in the movies. If someone has been shot in the head, it is bloody obvious. “The pregnant woman” photo stands out from the others like a sore thumb and is an obvious fake. The interpretation of a red armband on the man on the roof throwing Molotov cocktails is utterly unconvincing.
I have been trying to discover if this woman’s name has been released without success. Those photos if I recall were out very quickly after May 2nd (Black Friday). One question I think you should ask yourself Craig is why only the names of 36 victims have been released since the deaths. The official figure of the dead is 46 though there is speculation of many more deaths and bodies kept in the basement. Surely concerned relatives would want to know what has happened to their loved ones. None of the 36 dead whose names and year of birth were released died of anything but being burnt to death, falling to their deaths or smoke asphyxiation. But it needs to be asked what happened to the others.
You won’t like this, because it is Russia Today, but this Maidan commander in bullet-proof vest clearly gets guns under the pretence that he has been shot in the leg and he is later seen firing into the building into which the pro-Russian supporters were driven, locked in, then burnt to death.
http://rt.com/news/156664-odessa-fire-radicals-shoot/
John
Err – because the other 10 weren’t Ukrainians and they haven’t been claimed/identified?
Certainly some of the Ukrainian faction were firing at the building.
Incidentally I don’t doubt Russian sources will give you a name for the woman. I can give you a name too. David Tordens. Look it up, and start thinking.
DonnyDarko: “Posted yesterday about Swedish press reporting that the Nazi thugs from Maidan had just finished their basic training and been armed and reckoned there would be trouble by the weekend.”
Don’t forget too many of the Maidan thugs who used the demonstrations to seize power and are no doubt alongside the estimated few thousand US-funded foreign mercenaries and other blood-thirsty sorts spreading chaos and carnage throughout Ukraine had been undergoing training for their killing spree in Poland, with bus convoys taking recruits there widely known of since the summer of 2013, their instructors and paymasters, NATO: British, American, Turkish and Israeli involvement assured, plus of course especial complete Polish government support, the bribes Poland’s neo-cons received in no way compensating for the lasting damage done to that country’s now sunken reputation, amongst the pariah losers.
Craig (22 May, 2014 – 1:22 pm) : Pro-Russian Ukranians are still Ukranians and their views still count, I prefer the less loaded term of pro-independence Ukranians thanks, it is the fascists in power in Kiev who wish to enslave Ukraine to the west, to the EU, to NATO, to the IMF and to Washington and London’s misrule and ruinous despotic rule. I think few here seen the events in Egypt as genuinely or eve remotely left wing anything, but like most of the ‘Arab Spring’ pantomime only more US/UK/NATO/Israeli intrigues. The only part I can agree with in your post is that “Ukrainians have been beaten up, murdered and intimidated on a massive scale.”, but the mere juxtaposition of this with ‘Russians, baseball bats and Kalashnikovs’, rinsed and repeated many times still cannot create any causative link or association between these unrelated phenomena or bridge the chasm between your mindless marching moron communist antichrist zombies from hell caricatures and the reality which objective analysis without the disinterred cold war hysteria makes crystal-clear.
The surefire prediction diversion post isn’t going to divert, Craig, not yet. When there is downright, overt, plain in your face interference in the politics of a nation, witnessed for one thing by the MacCain and Newland visit to Kiev in support of the demonstrators and the Newland hacked phone call for another. How can you not accept, that the Americans and British and the EU were in it up to their necks, pre the Yanukovich overthrow.
Vote rigging’s a predictable symptom of the same disease that infects politicians everywhere…elections are futile above a certain level of pestilence, which they do indeed appear to have exceeded, just listen to Haig (not one job of Human empathy). I’m with Russell Brand. This one (election) will not to make a fig of difference to the chaos that’s being visited on the poor ordinary people of Ukraine and all the other unfortunate people of Syria, Libya, Iraq and so on ….
” David Tordens”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda#Belgian_Atrocity_Propaganda
This gives the pseudonym of the woman who took the photo. She was apparently looking for a relative and her testimony is that the “mysterious” woman was not pregnant and about in her mid-fifties.
http://observers.france24.com/content/20140513-strangled-woman-odessa-photo-ukraine
In figures given for the dead elsewhere I have read that of the 42 known dead 6 were women.
I remember the first British Ambassador I met (long before your time Craig), at our embassy in a leafy Asian capital then virtually occupied by the Americans. He was a kindly, soft-spoken man and I was taken aback when he described his American counterpart as “a thug”.
(Declassified documents later revealed that the US ambassador was directing secret bombing raids on this country, among other undiplomatic activities.)
I was brought up to think that we were basically decent, honest people and I still find it hard to believe that the British ruling elite has slavishly supported Washington for the past 50-odd years, becoming a full-fledged accomplice to all its crimes and misdemeanours.
And here is the Libyan politician Jalil admitting that Ghadafi never ordered the killings of protestors.That was done by the imported terror groups.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38570.htm
It doesn’t matter anymore.The green flag has gone.
The bit that puzzles me most of all is that you have these mad muslim fanatic terrorists being armed to the teeth by the US ,UK and the Arab gulf states and some of them are even camped on the border with Israel and yet not a finger is ever lifted against the Zionist enemy. Why ? They can’t be that fanatic in my eyes. Just paid mercenaries with turbans.An Islamic Blackstone that the US switches on and off depending on where they need to turn into turmoil.It really is the theatre of war.
Compare and contrast:
1) Craig Murray on the photograph of the pregnant woman in the Odessa trade union building:
2) Kievbot, going by the title of InvisibleAndFree (joined Guardian 18 March 2014), on the same topic, from the BTL comments accompanying Ukraine crisis worsens amid intense fighting and warnings of civil war (6 May 2014):
Source: Link text
Conditioning for War – The dichotomy of ‘real’ and ‘fake’
Britain did not have an official propaganda program at the beginning of the Great War, as it was theoretically antithetical to British values.
My grand-father said his father had attended a conference in 1914 that established a propaganda information link with America. My grand-father, a telegraphist, received propaganda information from Wellington House and put it ‘on the wire’ to America.
In 1917, the Department of Information was established and on February 10, 1918, the Ministry of Information was created whose activities were secret, largely unknown to parliament.
Conscription was alien to British tradition, and was not brought in until the beginning of 1916. The need to gain general acceptance for the waging of a war in which casualties would reach unimaginable heights involved what was no doubt the most ambitious propaganda campaign in British history, mobilizing politicians, intellectuals, trade union leaders, feminists, and popular heroes such as the music hall stars.
The leading intellectuals of the age lined up, almost to a man, to join the struggle. Rudyard Kipling had always been a passionate imperialist, and he was joined in the work of writing pro-war pamphlets for the government by, among others, G. K. Chesterton, Arthur Conan Doyle and six professors of history from Oxford University. Even those writers who maintained a reputation as peace-lovers, and who criticized certain aspects of the war, such as H. G. Wells and G. B. Shaw, desired victory for the Empire (O Leary, Daniel and Wisenthal J L Eds. 2006: 5). In 1916, the only time when the anti-war movement in Britain gained significant public support, H G Wells denounced it fiercely in the national press (The Herald May 27 1916).
The established Church of England, for its part, saw the war as a sacred duty. The following comment by the Reverend Basil Bourchier was not exceptional: “This truly is a war of ideals; Odin is ranged against Christ, and Berlin is seeking to prove its supremacy over Bethlehem. Every shot that is fired, every bayonet thrust that gets home, every life that is sacrificed, is in very truth ‘for His Name’s sake’” (Quoted in Wilkinson 1996: 254). Anglican voices against the war proved to be exceedingly rare.
The music song titles gives us more insight:
“Three Cheers for the Red White and Blue”, “Be a Soldier, Lad of Mine”, “The Army of Today’s All Right”, “Won’t you join the army?”, “We don’t Want to Lose You (but We Think You Ought to Go)”, “For the Honour of Dear Old England”, “Boys in Khaki, Boys in Blue”, “Men of England, You Have Got to Go”, “You ought to join”, “Our Country’s Call”, “Let ’em All Come, We’re ready”, and “March on to Berlin!”.
Thanks to John Mullen & grandad John Benjamin Waterman
The name of the woman who took the photograph is Alena (pronounced Alyona) Nikolaenko. Here is her Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000554028711
I scrolled down and yes I believe her story and that the photograph she took is genuine. She was indeed looking for a relative, her father-in-law. On 6th May she buried him.
“My Dear Friends !
Today we have a funeral!
Bury our Beloved father, Father, Grandpa!
Novitsky Vladimir Mikhailovich!
He was 70 years old! But he never so many years did not give!
Until the last day he helped his employees to carry rolls of roofing material on the roof ! But thus demanded performance!
Yes, he was always too for JUSTICE!
He could not understand how can betray his father and grandfather, who died in the wars of our country! And always proud of St. George’s ribbon!
He had no gun , no clubs, no Molotov cocktails … He loved life and always help others who need it!
He loved and honored friendship Ukraine with Russia, Belarus and other nations!
Perhaps it is because of him that you can see those photos that I was able to do this by logging in the hell in which turned House of Trade Unions on the Kulikovo because is the last place where he could be after us day search it to morgues, hospitals, police, and so on!
We are today going to the funeral, found that we are not there you go… We basically all the clothes bright colors!…
I thank you, Vladimir Mikhailovich, that you have given life to my Beloved Husband, Father of my Children!
All of us today will accompany you to the Last Path!
Earth you Pooh ! Kingdom of Heaven to you!
——
Heavy will have today is the day ……. ”
I checked the name of her father-in-law against a published page of the dead which appears at number 30 on the list.
http://dumskaya.net/news/opublikovany-imena-36-pogibshih-v-rezultate-stol-035419/
I hope you you will question your original belief that this was staged.
That goes for you Paul Rigby.
I just don’t understand the reluctance to connect the dots between Sevastapol/Tartus/Tehran, but intuitively we can point to Libya as though CIA is selective about their shenanigans.
There is a golden-thread woven throughout the World stage, and plenty of manpower and dollars to operate the looms.
Sorry Paul Rigby, I speed read your comment and see you are questioning too. Apols.
The picture isn’t conclusive of anything and the majority of a body’s weight is in the chest and head, which are flat on their backs against the table. The issue is not about the veracity or not of this picture, that picture or any other picture, claim and counterclaim based on minimal information obtained third-hand and fourth hand from unreliable sources. There are reams of photos charred bloated remains and of the aftermath of this event, attempts to discredit any one photo, merely discredit those claiming one or more are fake. What are we being asked to compare and contrast? What I see in both examples are the unshakeable certainties of the the zealot hawking a message, with regard for inconvenient facts. The scene of the crime and the aftermath, the information permitted to the public and any investigation is in the hands of the militarised Ukranian national police forces who numerous videos record stood idly by watching murders taking place before them, watched the building be barricaded with many trapped inside and watched the building set alight, all impassively, done nothing to intervene, protect lives or property, even as injured persons rescued by fire services themselves were attacked and killed.
Maybe it was a formatting error, but apart from the quoted material, what is your ‘Paul Rigby’s’ take on this: the irrelevant minutaie of this photo which inspires puzzling and such intensive speculation it doesn’t deserve, or of the whole of the recent events in Ukraine that have led to the present débâcle. Your guess is as good as mine as to what ‘russian antipropaganda’ is but it sounds serious and worrying, nebulous, undefined, it’s meaningless, but something about which SOMETHING MUST BE DONE, the effect of a well-financed online anti-Russia campaign, armies of implausible bogus bloggers just another weapon in the US’ destabilisation toolbag. The tone is similar to that hilariously inept poster quoted a while ago here who here who though having never met she said Yulia Tymoshenko said she was just the most amazing human being in the world, showering her with absurd plaudits, and who despite never having met her, then said she was actually Tymoshenkos next-door neighbour (unless she meant they were imprisoned in adjoining cells) and though never having met Tymoshenko, demanded publicly from Ms. Tymoshenko money owed to her ‘for electricity’ –more like unpaid wages for posting such creepy-crawly pish on her behalf.
bah, without regard for inconvenient facts.
Or was I right first time Paul? What exactly are you saying with “Russian anti-propaganda” is it anti-propaganda against Russia or is it Russian propaganda that you are anti. So yes I was right first time. Anyway if you are objective read the links I have supplied and see if you are capable of changing your mind, whatever it is.
Panorama panelists are as anti-Putin as some here apart from Kathryn Allsopp (who she?). I think we might be entering another cold-war situation, but things are different now. The world is a tinderbox. The Yanks (we are the 51st state) are ready to light the blue touchpaper at any opportunity. Scary. It could be a hot war.
John Goss, no problem, I’ve made the same mistake myself before and doubtless will again.
In an attempt to understand the origins of the “pregnant woman” photograph a little better, here’s a link to a screen shot of what appears to be a piece of pro-Kiev social media triumphalism, delighting in the symbolic death of “Mother” Odessa:
<a href="http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/frallik/12164489/874668/874668_original.jpg
It’s this post that brings together many of the elements of the story as we currently have it, from the apparent scene of crime to the seeming assassin appearing at same room’s window. If this screen-shot is what it purports to be, then the photo and the connections made with it originate not with Russian propagandists, but Kievan – or, more likely, the CIA.
I note that the distinctively attired alleged murderer (seen at the window) was also captured on film both both before and after the massacre:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/147933/147933_original.jpg
Below, we catch a glimpse of the same man’s distinctive jacket sleeve:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/napaki/12851221/136589/136589_original.jpg
The man in the above photograph addressing the assembled members of the SBU psuedo-gang – the Maidan heavies who pretended to be pro-Federalists and attacked the football mob – is, incidentally, Gordienko, the well-known Maidan activist.
British interests in Ukraine
http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2014/05/british-interests-ukraine/
You might not know it, I didn’t, but there is a British Ukrainian Society (BUS). It’s aim, to “strengthen relations”…
…It turns out that its board is just full of interesting people: Lord Risby, Lord Oxford , Robert Shelter-Jones, John Wittingdale MP, Baroness Smith of Gilmorehill and Mr Anthony Fisher .
Now before looking at any of these people in more depth it is perhaps worth noticing that Lord Risby has been a Conservative MP since 1992, till he joined the Lords in 2010, has served in the Treasury and the Ministry of Defense, and from 2005 to 2010 was Vice Chairman of the Conservative Party with special responsibility for business links to the City of London. John Wittingdale is a also very senior Conservative being vice chair of the key, 1922 committee. Robert Shelter-Jones is a Conservative Party donor via his company Sythian Ltd. As the Indepedent Newspaper reported,
The money from Mr Shetler-Jones has gone to the highest echelons of the party. Dame Pauline Neville Jones, the career diplomat who is now the shadow security minister, revealed in the latest Register of Members’ Interests that she receives £5,000 a quarter or £20,000-a-year from Mr Shetler-Jones.
Another senior Tory, the former armed services minister Nicholas Soames, also declares on the register that he receives an undisclosed sum as a strategic adviser to Scythian Limited, which has had listed assets of no more than £2 since 2006 and has given a total of more than £27,000 to Conservative Central Office.
When Lord Risby was at the ministry of Defense Nicholas Soames was the Minister.
The odd one out at the British Ukrainian Society is Baroness Smith (listed as a patron) who was married to the former leader of the Labour party. Despite her presence, having strong ties to the Conservative party does seem to be quite a common theme at the BUS. Just an inocent coincidence of course. But we do already seem to have quite a grouping of political power. Likewise it may be just a coincidence that another common theme among BUS board members is having close ties to Mr Firtash of RosUkrEnergo gas company. Robert Shetler-Jones was the former CEO of Group DF which is Mr Firtash’s main holding company. Mr Shelter-Jones is now on Group DF’s supervisory board. Lord Oxford is also on Group DF’s supervisory council. While Mr Anthony Fisher is a former director of the Firtash Foundation. And one more BUS board member, Vladimir Granovski, is also on the board of Mr Firtash’s television company.
So I think it is fair to say that the BUS is not a cultural organisation. It has no artists or poets on its board, nor any human rights activists either. It has mainly people who are interested in business (which businesses I will come to shortly), are closely associated with Mr Firtash, and many of whom are members of or donors to the Conservative party. There are two other things which link three of the BUS members which are not emphasized on the BUS web site.
Both Lord Risley and Lord Oxford are non-executive board members of Oil and Gas companies whose main interests lie in Ukraine. While both Lord Oxford and Richard Shetler-Jones have been reported as having links (in Lord Oxford’s case very senior links) with MI6.
So now we have a group of people who are linked by interests in Ukrainian gas, close ties to Ukrainian oligarch Mr Firtash as well as two other Ukrainian business clans, close and senior connections to the Conservative party, ditto for MI6 and they are members of the British Ukrainian Society. If this grouping were in Ukraine and the people were all members of the Ukrainain British Society, with business interests in the UK, ties to Ukrainian intelligence and many of them were senior members of one politcal party as well, would we have difficulty seeing them as on their way to being a business clan?
Gas companies
Lord Oxford, or as he is known to his friends, Raymond Benedict Bartholomew Michael Asquith, 3rd Earl of Oxford and Asquith, is an hereditary peer and was a senior British diplomat stationed at one time in Moscow. In fact, according to the Telegraph newspaper he was the MI6 Station Chief in Moscow. He is now a non-executive Director of JKX Oil and Gas which has large oil and gas rights in Ukraine.
Well, if they are that bloody clever why didn’t they sort out Regal Petroleum.
Craig, what’s wrong with a Muslim majority democratically instituting political reform to conform with their beliefs? Are democratic principles to take precedence over the word of God who created all in his great plans for mankind?
Religion is not a weekend hobby for true believers any more than honesty is a private choice that has no place in government.
This fellow also doesn’t like “Political Islam”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUiysSau8Qk
The wishes of the vast majority of the people of Libya and Egypt don’t seem to have a place in your condemnation of the ‘coups’ in Libya and Egypt.
I agree with you that the real aim in Libya to get rid of Gaddafi ‘was never democracy, but a neo-con friendly government, which is so much better secured under the auspices of the CIA.’ But most Libyan people wanted him out.
What I believe was the US aim was to install a Muslim Brotherhood government in Libya and Egypt and in other Muslim countries bringing about a caliphate friendly to US interests particularly in their strategy of subordinating Africa. However, when Morsi started altering the constitution and bringing in repressive laws, the people weren’t too happy and rose up. The last thing the US would want is Egypt ablaze.
In Libya in the elections of 2012 10% of the votes went to the Islamists but step by step they have taken over the GNC and all laws etc are to promote their interests. One way they got rid of their political opponents was through their Political Isolation Law, which was passed after their militias threatened GNC.
Benghazi was always feared by Gaddafi and was the first city to rise up in the revolution. Benghazi is the capital of Cyrenaica, which holds 80% of Libyan oil. Since 2012 to subdue Benghazi there has been a strategy of killing political activists, judges, police, army officers and so on.. Hundreds have been killed but the GNC did nothing, no security cameras or proper equipment.
Two weeks ago the head of Benghazi intelligence was shot in broad daylight a day after publicly declaring a nexus between members of the GNC and the assassins and bombers.
The majority of people in the East know exactly who’s responsible for the carnage and don’t see the GNC as legitimate. They are very happy for Hifter to sort things out.
Support for Hifter’s fight against terrorism and the Muslim Brotherhood is burgeoning across Libya. . A banner in Tripoli tonight reads, “yes to police & army no to militias” and graffiti says “no to brotherhood yes to dignity”
Again the US wants a stable Libya so oil and gas can flow freely especially to Europe and they can get on with Africom. I think their support for the Muslim Brotherhood has weakened and they’re sitting on the fence.
It seems to me that making judgments about countries and what the people of those countries want should be based on the opinions of the actual people in the countries in question.
.
Gas pains for consumers and producers.
Please compare/contrast TPP and BRICS.
Pepe on Ukraine and the Petrodollar.
http://www.countercurrents.org/escobar190514.htm
“More BRICS cooperation meant to bypass the dollar is reflected in the “Gas-o-yuan,” as in natural gas bought and paid for in Chinese currency. Gazprom is even considering marketing bonds in yuan as part of the financial planning for its expansion. Yuan-backed bonds are already trading in Hong Kong, Singapore, London, and most recently Frankfurt.
Nothing could be more sensible for the new Pipelineistan deal than to have it settled in yuan. Beijing would pay Gazprom in that currency (convertible into rubles); Gazprom would accumulate the yuan; and Russia would then buy myriad made-in-China goods and services in yuan convertible into rubles.”
It is truly amazing how few pick up on this subject of BRICS/Petrodollar. Who was it said ‘follow the money’.
Can we squeeze Boko Haram and Nigeria into the triangulations?
http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2014/01/from-petrodollar-to-petroyuan-the-coming-proxy-wars/
Great digging Paul Rigby. It is a mafia, dead serious organised international crime, playing with the lives and futures of billions of people for their own grotesque enrichment, a dodgy deep secret state within an already irreparably corrupt overt rogue criminal state. I can’t understand how they think they’ll get away with it and how they’ve got away with so far for so long, and how we even begin to tackle its reach and power, the arrest, just trial and long imprisonment of the whole of the capitalist classes and the lickspittle politicians and media whores who dance to their tune, must not only be contemplated but set in motion.
Can politicians and leaders be found who are immune to the lure of megalomania, who do not self-select on the basis of fervid psychopathy -while there sure will be natural born psychopaths, the systems that mould larval Crime Ministers and Cabinet Monsters seem to pick the worst of them unerringly, and make run-of-the-mill misanthropes like Cameron, Hague or Blair into abominable beasts history will forever abhor.
The so-called “Arab Spring” was creation of US State Department and several pro-Israel advocacy groups. That’s why nothing has changed in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Bahrain. In fact these countries have become Israeli satelittes.
In July 2012, Gabriel M. Scheinmann, a visiting Fellow at the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), admitted that the Zionist entity is in fact the winner of the so-called “Arab Spring”.
http://rehmat1.com/2012/07/17/jinsa-israel-is-winner-of-arab-spring/
Surely we can all see by now when the horrors of the idiot Establishment are revealed they can never counter our arguments and facts they just scream Lefties and Conspiracy Thoerists at us all?
Which simply confirms their epic failure.