Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.
We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.
What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.
“”Ukraine’s SBU service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j
One bit of evidence bites the dust. Who does that help?
The site Nick referred to
http://www.flightradar24.com/flight/mh17
I don’t know which is more sad that the useful idiot believes the palpable lies that he is peddling or that he doesn’t but just spouts then anyway for what he believes to be the greater good.
OldMark – I don’t disagree with what you say but you forget the period of restraint before the Ukraine govt took action during which Russian mercenaries and equipment flooded into Eastern Ukraine (remember how Putin now acknowledges that he did the same in the Crimea from the start despite the initial denials) or the ceasefire that was offered and ignored. It is incredibly naïve to believe that any sovereign govt would sit back for ever against such provocation. Oh and lets not forget that Putin has moved his troops back to border.
“One bit of evidence bites the dust. Who does that help?”
Have the Ukrainians said that they will not make the evidence available to the full enquiry that they are calling for?
http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/en/publish/article?art_id=247468697&cat_id=244314971
And Putin is of course promising to share the black box data – to which he has no legitimate right whatsoever.
Robert – 9:49pm: I am simply suggesting that the wreckage on the ground in eastern Ukraine may be that of MH370. How it got there is a different matter. The comment by the rebel commander is probably the most important statement made since the crash occurred. Why would he make it – or was he instructed to make it, just to let ‘us’ know that the Russian authorities know certain things that ‘our side’ would prefer not to be made public?
As for the ‘missing’ people: I did mention that, according to information on the Jim Stone site, the flight on the 17th was cancelled. That should be very easy to check, but you would need to find all the people who were meant to be on it to confirm. That’s going to be a little difficult, although there were two girls interviewed who said they changed flights at the last moment and flew the following day. They were never asked why they changed.
John Goss – 09:56pm: Please see above
Johnstone – 10:08pm: Also please see above. I note you have found the FR24 link.
RD. 11 46pm
Bless you.
I suppose we should all feel reassured that the Ukrainian ATC records are in the safe hands of the SBU. If they hadn’t acted so fast then independent investigators might have got their hands on it. Then what chance would there have been of a credible investigation.
The discussion would be assisted if folks would read the entire thread before jumping off the cliff. This IACO permission was granted and published almost concurrently with the arising story. It was remarkable speed for the ordinarily incompetent Malaysian airline.
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/19/MH17-crash-Flight-path-was-deemed-safe-by-ICAO/
“When asked about other airlines avoiding the airspace above Ukraine, Capt Izham said that those were decisions made by the individual airlines based on their own individual analysis.”
The altitude was the object of permission, but the 200 KM diversion near Donetsk airspace was apparently the pilots decision.
The pilot’s analysis failed to take into account the hazards of that region? Was he living in a cave before the flight?
Mechanism of Provocation
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/30000.html
From that which can be now said for sure.
1. The Malaysian “Boeing” was led into the DPR territory consciously, the course correction which led it into the war zone was clearly intentional. The machinations with the “Boeing” route are absolutely identical to a well-known provocation with a South-Korean “Boeing”, which the americans led into the USSR airspace in 1983, after which it was shot down.
2. The “Boeing” was working only with Ukrainian dispatchers – Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk ones, the offset of the corridor to the North of a typical route was organized there. There is no way Russia or the militia could direct it into the conflict zone.
3. The “Boeing” was accompanied by the 2 jets of the junta air force (there are discrepancies – some sources write about a Su-25, others about Su-27) one of which was seen by the eyewitnesses near the crash site of the “Boeing” as it was retreating towards Debaltsevo. What happened to the 2nd junta airplane is unknown, the 2 observed parachutes in the vicinity of the “Boeing” crash site may well belong to the pilots of the junta air force. Somewhat earlier the unconfirmed messages about the shot down Su-25 and AN-26 arrived, but there are no significant confirmations for this. Strelkov didn’t make any official announcements on this topic.
4. The Spanish dispatcher who carried out monitoring of the “Boeing” confirmed the fact of presence of the Ukrainian airplanes next to the “Boeing”, and also the fact of an attack of the plane by the junta, which according to him was also confirmed by the Ukrainian military, who claimed that they know precisely who gave the order (from here the versions about Kolomoisky and Avakov originated). Actually, the fact of the presence of the Ukrainian jets next to “Boeing”, the testimony of the Spanish dispatcher and the statement of the eyewitness of the “Boeing” catastrophe allows us to determine the guilty side authentically.
5. Prior to opening the “black boxes” it will be hard to determine how exactly was the “Boeing” shot down – at this point the militia fighters found 8 out of 12. Among the versions, besides the most obvious – attack by air-to-air missiles (which was mentioned by a number of American sources), there is a version of a collision between the “Boeing” and a junta airplane, and also the version sounded by the Russian media that the “Boeing” was confused with Putin’s airplane. Also it is not clear what were the 3 explosions that were observed by the eyewitness.
6. Regarding the version that the airplanes were shot down from “Buk”, then as the physics calculations show, even if the militia fighters brought the captured “Buk” into operational state (its current combat readiness and the tactical position are unknown), taught the squad and locked it into an air defense complex and deployed it in the area of Snezhnoye-Torez, then “Boeing” was supposed to fall on the territory of the Russian Federation. And after an attack from the Ukrainian “Buks” (which are many in the Donbass), the “Boeing” would fall exactly on the DPR territory.
Overall, a quite clumsily prepared provocation is apparent, when the passenger “Boeing” was consciously directed (from Kiev or from Dnepropetrovsk – this is yet to be clarified) into the zone of a military conflict, where it went accompanied by the two junta jets, after which it was destroyed (with a high share of probability, 1 more plane was destroyed besides the “Boeing”, which is where the parachutes came from). Later the mechanism of the information pump was launched with the goal of blaming the militia fighters in the destruction of the airplane, which the junta brought into the DPR sky on purpose. In the internet there were a lot of fake injections that the airplane was shot down by the militia, that new sanctions need to be introduced and that NATO military intervention has to start.
The goal of the provocations quite clear – to blame the militia and the Russian Federation and to turn around the unfortunately arranging tendencies in Donbass. Because the provocation was made quite crudely (even on the foreign resources they reasonably point out that the main culprits sit in Kiev), then its effect from my point of view will be limited. At maximum, the junta will try to squeeze a temporary respite out of this badly prepared provocation, in order to catch its breath after the catastrophe in the battles for Luhansk, Izvarino, and Krasnodon.
John Goss; I thought sure you would pick up on the KAL 007 comparison.
I wish CM would tire of his court jesters here and ask them to take their condescending yiddish narrative to HuffPo or Haaretz where it belongs.
MH17: World See Tragedy, US Sees “Game Changer”
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/mh17-world-see-tragedy-us-sees-game.html#!binjQe
Putin ate my Ukrainian hamster!
Within that link, Dre.
“If the Malaysian airliner was shot down, it also remains possible that it was struck by Ukraine’s own air defence systems.
http://www.janes.com/article/40895/ukraine-claims-malaysian-airliner-was-shot-down-in-its-territory
IHS will be waiting for confirmation of the aircraft’s altitude and corroboration of whether the plane was shot down before undertaking a more detailed analysis of the possible air defence systems used and the immediate implications.”
Janes, is a conservative, militaristic source. That they concede the source may be Kyev is quite interesting. They must be thinking what we are thinking….a set-up.
It really is disturbing how swiftly our media go into super-excited froth mode. Putin has ‘one last chance’ according to the Guardian, a supposedly liberal newspaper. It’s been a day, and nobody really knows what happened, but apparently journalist in the MSM have decided it was a BUK missile fired by Russian-separatists. How they ‘know’ this is beyond me.
When the US backed the fascist coup in Ukraine, we suspected bad things would happen. And so it has proved. Putin is right. If there was no war zone, no plane gets shot down. So we – NATO – have to accept our share of blame. I guess we’ll never know what truly happened, I suspect a false-flag operation personally, and blaming Putin for everything that is going wrong in the Ukraine is naive in the extreme. Even if if was pro-Russia troops, I’d be astonished if Putin personally ordered the downing of a passenger plane. Doesn’t benefit Putin, and we know Putin is very keen on anything that benefits Putin.
I should stop reading the MSM. Not worth the effort.
You have to admit; the trolls are very effective. What’s feared most is that people will start to organize and focus as a unit, rather than one hundred separate souls talking past one another.
Does anyone remember the Great Leap Forward? Millions of backyard steel mills with millions making their mistakes separately makes for some poor quality steel.
Now if a group of persons form a partnership, and share best/worst practices, putting the objective on a pedestal, rather than personal recognition, it might have some success in the sense that the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts. The Manhattan Project was such a partnership, although that’s probably going to be challenged with great phony outrage, I’m sure. After all, that’s what trolls do.
Again, I say, they’ve been very successful keeping us separate, so that we might not actually elevate our understanding of these issues.
Ha! Nice one.
July 17, 2014
Sanctions and Airliners
Paul Craig Roberts
NOTE: Photos are now available of the wreckage from the Malaysian airliner crash. Notice the extensive debris and the large section of fuselage. You are observing remains of an airliner that was hit with a missile at 33,000 feet and fell to impact land. Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner. Give that some thought. No doubt but that the 9/11 Commission will conclude that only Malaysian airliners leave debris.
The unilateral US sanctions announced by Obama on July 16 blocking Russian weapons and energy companies access to US bank loans demonstrate Washington’s impotence. The rest of the world, including America’s two largest business organizations, turned their backs on Obama.
/..
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/17/sanctions-airliners-paul-craig-roberts/
The “trolls” as you put them don’t have to work at keeping truthers separate, you do that all by yourselves. It’s enormous fun watching the in-fighting over your various fantasies. If you could agree on a single version of events (planes or no planes on 9/11? Mini-nukes or DEW?) it would indeed be a great leap forward but it just isn’t going to happen.
Some of the looney tunes on the David Icke forums are already convincing themselves that the wreckage is really MH370 and that once again a huge contingent of “crisis actors” and “vicsims” are involved in (yet another) false flag psy-op.
One of them did find this though:-
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/
The news on the BRICS financial developments, Putin’s tour of South American countries and his meeting with Fidel Castro would not have played well with Amerika.
Pepe Escobar piece:
BRICS against Washington consensus
http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/brics-against-washington-consensus/
excerpts:
Putin’s extremely powerful, symbolic meeting with Fidel Castro in Havana, as well as writing off $36 billion in Cuban debt could not have had a more meaningful impact all across Latin America. Compare it with the perennial embargo imposed by a vengeful Empire of Chaos.
In South America, Putin is meeting not only with Uruguay’s President Pepe Mujica – discussing, among other items, the construction of a deepwater port – but also with Venezuela’s Nicolas Maduro and Bolivia’s Evo Morales.
Xi Jinping is also on tour, visiting, apart from Brazil, Argentina, Cuba and Venezuela. What Beijing is saying (and doing) complements Moscow; Latin America is viewed as highly strategic. That should translate into more Chinese investment and increased South-South integration….
….While Buenos Aires, already mired in recession, fights American vulture funds – the epitome of financial speculation – in New York courthouses, Putin and Xi come offering investment in everything from railways to the energy industry…
~~~
http://rt.com/business/173520-putin-latin-america-deals/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/cuban-leader-fidel-castro-meets-russian-president-vladimir-putin-article-1.1864426
~~
Putin returned on the same day. His plane was 200 miles behind MH17 on a different trajectory.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/19-07-2014/128094-nato_putin-0/
Paul Craig Roberts: Photos are now available of the wreckage from the Malaysian airliner crash. Notice the extensive debris and the large section of fuselage. You are observing remains of an airliner that was hit with a missile at 33,000 feet and fell to impact land. Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner.
Exactly, and the take-home message of that is that the two airliners referenced about 9/11 were flown into the ground at speed and not hit by missiles. But of course, we already knew that and it is only 9/11 Truthers who have ever claimed the plane over Pennsylvania was hit by a missile. Nevertheless, pieces of debris of both planes absolutely were found so it is bizarre of Paul Craig Roberts to suddenly resurrect this silly discredited conspiracy theory. Or it would be if he didn’t have a willing fan base to gobble up the nonsense.
The Mail stops at nothing.
Anything to confess, Putin? Russian president in church as world leaders warn him you can’t ‘wash your hands’ of MH17 disaster
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697538/MH17-eyewitness-accounts-emerge-horror-unfolded-crash-site.html
Poor Putin!
It goes without saying some of the devils posting here are full time “employees” just doing their israeli “narrative” job, so why are they still allowed to post here.
It goes without saying some of the devils posting here are full time “employees” just doing their israeli “narrative” job, so why are they still allowed to post here.
Why is every thread about Israel including the threads that aren’t about Israel?
According to Russia Today Malaysian airways are asking why Ukrainian Air Control diverted the plane 300 kilometres over a war zone and why it was ordered to lower its flight path, which is only normally done when there are other flights on the same level.
Another 16 Poroshenko-led deaths of civilians in Donetsk.
“It goes without saying some of the devils posting here are full time “employees” just doing their israeli “narrative” job, so why are they still allowed to post here.”
I have no evidence whether this is true or not Just Saying. But what has been noticed is the lack of dissenters on the Israeli genocide on citizens of Gaza which has been commented upon. Whether they have been instructed not to comment, or whether they have taken an individual initiative, or whether, as they ought, they think this genocide is wrong. What has kept them away is strange in that they all, to a single comment-maker, have remained silent on this serious issue. Coincidence? Draw your own conclusions. It has even been commented that they are commenting on this thread but ignoring Israel’s aggression.
Apologies to Kempe, who has been making a solo and spirited lone effort. Doug Scorgie sums it up.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/07/gaza-invasion/#comment-467961
Angrysoba. AFAIK there was no wreckage found at the Pentagon or in Philadelphia where there was just a small crater shown!:)
Of course there never was a plane at the Pentagon. It would have had to have moved across the ground at that point of entry into the building? Did you ever see the footage from a camera at ground level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzFqXbfv_yg
and from the air?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vnu_yiUzls
But we digress. That was part of the 9/11 scam. This MH17 is altogether different.
Ever been had?
“So who were these people and who did they report it to?”
Watch Russia Today and you will learn what is happening Fred.
http://rt.com/news/174020-ukraine-malaysian-plane-area/
Death Toll.
http://rt.com/news/174128-lugansk-osce-death-toll/
“I have no evidence whether this is true or not Just Saying. But what has been noticed is the lack of dissenters on the Israeli genocide on citizens of Gaza which has been commented upon.”
Perhaps it is because they do not dissent to the prevailing view – I have already made it clear that I believe that the Isreali govt response to the threats and attacks from Hamas is disproportionate. I have made my views on the situation in Israel/Palestine clear many many times – and while I don’t endorse the slavering adoration of the Hamas and the clearly anti-Semitic stance of some, I am not an uncritical supporter of the Isreali govt. Claiming that such a position is paid for by the Israeli govt really is just a technique employed by the cretinous/disingenuous to dismiss and avoid engaging with arguments that run counter to their own.
Angry again. ‘Why is every thread about Israel including the threads that aren’t about Israel?’
You are misconstruing matters deliberately. This thread has not been about Israel. There are very few mentions of the word, mostly in connection with Gaza and the BBC.
Anyway ask my Jewish friend whose father was a tailor and who renounced Judaism. He supports the Palestinians and actually supported a family from Gaza financially when the father, one of his friends, was over here studying.
He said on the day of the crash:
‘257 Civilians have been killed in Eastern Ukraine. Both the Ukrainian President & Prime Minister are Jewish.
Countless civilians in Gaza are being murdered by a nation of Jews.
Obviously, Holocaust Memorial Day has no meaning for Jews, save to justify war crimes on their part.
Time to forget it, I think.’
……
Another Jewish friend said at the same time ‘It all stinks’.