Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.
We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.
What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.
Grim news to wake up to. I logged on to this site first, and hadn’t read the MSM. Already ‘US intelligence’ is claiming a surface to air missile was the cause. Also claiming it occurred over ‘separatist’ held territory, so we can of course be led to infer which side is going to be blamed.
These people have no shame. It’s been two minutes, and they have a ‘position’. It may be true, though the swiftness of their response should make us sceptical, but I’m more taken by the fact that the agencies really are a 24/7 Sauron like eye, always ready with some malicious scheme, lie, or spin. These agencies are a bigger threat to my freedom than a bunch of idiots in a Mosque in Pakistan – by a long shot.
One thing is for sure. I won’t be flying anymore. Thankfully, I have that option. I don’t want to be fodder for further excuses for hegemony. It’s a lose/lose.
Americans or American backed forces blow up another plane in order to justify an invasion.
It appears it went further north than usual to skirt round large storms. I am sure of that and have it from my own source – a neutral aviation one. Looks like that’s how it happened to be in wrong place at wrong time.
Craig; Were you as certain as the Media, that it was a missile strike as early as 4 pm your time?
Craig
What are the protocols for aviation routes in the war zones?
What constitutes a war zone? (who decides it is)
Can this incident be a precursor to a massive crack down on the area and wholesale slaughter of the residents in the area?
This may be of interest:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/08/crimean-airspace-belongs-to-ukraine-icao-says/
Fedup
The protocol was that planes should fly above 30,000 feet. It was. That’s six miles up, thought to be safe. You cannot incidentally see the thing six miles up, certainly not its livery, so the idea that its livery was mistaken is a very silly theory.
I was not sure at 4pm that it was a missile strike. Not sure why that was asked. I am not sure now but it seems likely.
I don’t think your last sentence is at all likely.
Putin’s statement is very interesting indeed. To me, this is the clearest indication that the plane was brought down by accident by pro-Russian forces. If that is the case, it is exactly what he would say. If he believed it was the Ukrainian government, he would be saying something very different:
“In this regard, I want to note that this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine. And, certainly, the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy.”
There is an extant thread, though barely alive, on MH 370
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
Who benefits from it? Russia certainly don’t. Russia are winning the strategic war and rumours of gathered data re 911 to be released to the US public. Some US officials already calling for military assistance to Ukraine and BBC already selling the story of Russian blame.
Sorry. Here is correct link.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/disappearing-aircraft/
CIA has issued a fake tape, necessarily prepared in advance, of an alleged telephone conversation between what purports to be resistance commander Bezler and a colonel in the GRU:
http://youtu.be/VnuHxAR01Jo
This absurd exchange invites us to believe that an unsupervised group of alleged Kazaks, based at “the Chernukino checkpoint,” had possession of the only air defence system, the 9K37Buk, in the possession of the anti-fascist resistance – which boasts, at most, a handful of said system – that could conceivably have reached the Malaysian airliner at 33,000 feet.
Believe that, and I have a bridge you might be interested in.
Epic CIA fail.
“I was not sure at 4pm that it was a missile strike. Not sure why that was asked. I am not sure now but it seems likely.”
Is that addressed to me? Let me clarify the question. Do you have any speculation as the the Media pre-empting the available evidence with the pronouncement that a missile strike was the likely suspect?
It is the salient question, if I may be so bold as to ask.
Simon
The point is, it was a mistake. Several military planes have been shot down recently in the same area. It was further North than passenger planes normally are, and was mistaken for a military plane by the system operator. The argument that the pro-Russians would not have done it as they do not benefit, does not apply if they did it by accident.
Look at what Putin said.
Ben
The media always jump in with a prognostication – like how they all immediately reported the Breivik killings as a Muslim terrorist attack. Sometimes they are right, sometimes wrong. It does not in the least prove that they had coordinated anything in advance.
Given that three planes have been shot down by missiles in this area recently, it was a pretty natural punt for them to take.
I think it’s too coincidental and I don’t believe in coincidences where the US government are concerned.
If it is an accident the US won’t believe their luck, as awful as that is.
Yes, it is indeed very unfortunate for the pro-Russian side and the glee is going to be pretty unpleasant. But I wouldn’t call it a “coincidence”. Plane gets shot down just where planes have been getting shot down for several weeks is not terrifically unlikely if you think about it. The US can get lucky occasionally.
True, statistically if there have been numerous planes shot down then maybe on average a mistake can be made. But the timing looks suspect, airliners travel near war zones relatively frequently and are easily identifiable and also at higher altitude than fighter planes I’m informed. The taped conversation is something the CIA have been caught out with before and the US have been strongly linked with false flag type operations in the past. Looks suspect
Mod. Why are you zapping my comment? Too many links?
Here it is without them.
…
MH-17
My heart goes out to all the victims and thier families.
No shortage of possibilities. No firm evidence so far.
…
Ukrainian Military incompetence?
Search: Siberia Airlines 1812.
…
Pretext Manufacture for US/Nato military action against Anti-Kiev forces ?
Search: Operation Northwood.
…
An attempt to assassinate Putin?
Search: President Putin’s plane might have been the target for Ukrainian missile
…
Anti Kiev militia or Russian military? Can anyone post evidence for these theories?
Any other possibilities?
Who was responsible for setting the flight-path? Why would they choose to send it over territory where aircraft are being shot down almost daily?
Cui bono?
Let’s see which parties seek a thorough independent investigation and which try to derail it.
Right now it seems only the perpetrators really know the answer for sure.
I will be looking for the evidence they were driven south by the weather.
“Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said Friday at a press conference that the MH17’s flight route was declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), adding that the International Air Transportation Association had stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.”
Then there’s Najib, the useful idiot PM/Dicktator who so competently aided in the search for MH370.
“He also said the Malaysia Airlines had confirmed that the plane did not make a distress call.” Thanks for that prescience, Naj.
http://english.cri.cn/12394/2014/07/18/2702s836553.htm
Gee. That took twelve minutes of research.
@Derek: 1. RT is a Russia-funded media outlet. 2. Flight routes yesterday and today: such minor differences are normal, in the case of these two flights you can see them for example over central Poland. But compare any two long-distance flight routes over different days and you will that such route differences are standard.
Now, what is EXTREMELY interesting, the Kiev government has just published a purported interecept of two or three phone/radio conversations between rebel commanders.
http://nyti.ms/1tXHv0D
Its authenticity cannot be independently verified, however I would find it hard to believe that such a professional recording can be made up within just a few hours after the crash (including ID details of one of the killed passengers). In short: I tend to believe it is an authentic intercept, and the rebels are the most likely culprits behind the downing.
Could it be something else entirely?
Who has Malaysia or Malaysian Airlines pissed off recently?
Could the plane have been taken down in this zone to make it look like a Russia/Ukraine matter when it may be something or someone else entirely?
I have no answers of course just throwing it out there…
Well, Poroshenko decided that bit of airspace was so dangerous two days ago that he suspended military flights for 24 hours. Why then were commercial airliners still flying over?
Surely the kind of weaponry alleged to have been used is smart enough to distinguish between military and civilian squawks, (unless the pilot decided tot turn them off again)?
From abominable behaviour… To Downright DANGEROUSLY abominable behaviour….
I think David Ike is correct… Fucking Lizards Rule… and this Lizard is far from concerned for her own safety…where do they crawl to…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkTRJgDkNFg&feature=youtu.be&list=UUwBUwaTxztTPuSzIi2cjimw
Also The slip up….
No Western leader exemplified this sad state of affairs more than US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as they competed with one another for the best gloat over Gaddafi’s gruesome murder. Clinton beat them all when she said over CBS TV ‘We came, we saw, he died’ in a pathetic attempt to paraphrase Julius Caesar whilst laughing away in jubilation over the latest murder of yet another third world leader.
Sickeningly, her host couldn’t hide her glee either as she too joined in the fun. And this on a TV network that brags about journalistic values and all the hogwash that goes along with such snow-white claims. So much for an unbiased American media!
But there was a slip. CBS was conducting a formal interview with Clinton when her aides interrupted the recording to convey the ‘breaking news’ of Gaddafi’s murder. As she, her aides and the TV crew joked over Gaddafi’s murder the reporter slipped in a question. ‘Did your recent surprise visit to Libya have anything to do with Gaddafi’s death?” ‘No’ replied Clinton. Then she rolled her eyes adjusted her jacket and confessed ‘I am sure it did’.
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/111106/Timestwo/int010.html
The USA state that their intelligence confirm it was shot down. ONE expert on BBC said that repeated warnings were given about using the airspace and that there’s been 18 instances of passenger airliners being shot down in the past 30 years. (didn’t the Americans shoot one down?) The Ukrainians say they have a tape confirming it was the ‘Russian’ Ukrainians and released the tape to the press. Hilary Clinton’s attitude to this however genuinely scares me. I fear that this COULD be escalated beyond our worst fears, in fact, if I didn’t know better I’d say the Americans were quite happy about it..
@Peacewisher:
But the black box will be Malaysia’s, just like before:
http://www2.nst.com.my/black-box-belongs-to-malaysia-says-icao-1.567337
listening live to bbc world service, i was struck by the non-stop reporting of what Interfax had to say, including that Interfax was reporting the plane was shot down by a BUK missile. this was the first mention of the BUK.
however, in this BBC timeline, which is absolutely full of INTERFAX stuff, BBC changes the attribution for the BUK missile report.
BBC: As it happened: Malaysian plane crash in Ukraine
(FIRST ENTRY)
16:24: Reports suggest a passenger plane has crashed in eastern Ukraine. The early reports come from an “aviation source” who was quoted by the privately-owned Russian Interfax news agency…
16:50: An advisor to the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton Gerashenko, says the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet) when it was “hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher”, in a post on his Facebook page, according to the Associated Press…
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-28354787
am i alone in thinking BBC was quoting Interfax non-stop in order to give the impression Russia was putting out all the stuff being reported? i know when i hear “Interfax”, i think of the Soviet Union. of course, Interfax has a murky ownership these days & there is an Interfax Ukraine which, judging by most of what BBC was reporting, seemed more likely to be the source of the pro-Kiev/anti-Russian content.
anyway,
Russia has the black box for now;
the plane came out of Schiphol;
the BRICS development bank has just been announced;
the ground offensive has begun in Gaza.
may the passengers & crew of MF17 rest in peace. sincere condolences to their families and friends.
btw the Interfax report that Putin’s plane may have been in the same region has been debunked:
RT: At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Interfax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.
As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
Tony Cartalucci quotes from NY Daily News, re “Interfax, Ukranian news agency”, but the reference seems to have been scrubbed in the original link – u can link from ICH:
Tony Cartalucci: Cui Bono?
Flight MH17 Down Over Ukraine
The New York Daily News reported in an article titled, “Malaysia Airlines plane feared shot down in Ukraine near Russian border,” that:
“Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, said on Facebook that the plane was flying at an altitude of 33,000 feet when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, reported Interfax, a Ukranian news agency”…
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39135.htm
everywhere a google result shows up any reference to Interfax Ukraine, it seems the reference has been scrubbed, (at least the Ukrainian bit) or has been replaced by Russian-owned Interfac, but National Post does still have it in a tweet by Olaf Koens, a Dutch
journalist, way down in this link:
tweet:
Olaf Koens @obk 1,42am
Interfax Ukraine reports plane was shot down using ‘Buk’ missle system.
Medium range surface-to-air missile system
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/17/malaysian-passenger-plane-crashes-in-ukraine-near-russian-border-with-295-people-aboard/
if all news has been coming out of Kiev, via Interfax Ukraine (owned by whom? run by whom?), the public should be told.