Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.
We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.
What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.
@ Ben-LA PACQUTE LO ES TODO
I was referring to Strelkov’s own VK account which he used on numerous occasions claiming victorious shooting down of Ukrainian military airplanes and helicopters. Just before it was known that the latest shot airplane was not military Ukrainian but commercial with 289 people on board, Strelkov praised his men for shooting down yet another Ukrainain military airplane and claiming that Ukrainians have been warned not to fly over Donbass. The message as you know it was deleted and account was closed immediately after we have all learnt of this tragical mistake. I was not referring to the conversation which could easily be made up.
From what has become obvious since yesterday this airplane was not the only one flying over eastern Ukraine. It is the shortest route and it is no surprise that commercial airlines take this route to avoid extra cost. Why was he flying exactly over rebel controlled area? I do not know. Probably to avoid storm as Mr Murray suggested. If full international investigation is allowed (unfortunately what was denied to Uzbeks in 2005 with full support of Russia) we shall know the true sometime from now. But I doubt that Russia will allow this without ensuring that whatever is established supports their side of the story. Just like millions of cruel Nazis fighting free loving eastern Ukrainians or like Crimeans referendum. Time passes by KGB methods remain unchanged. Propaganda is the greatest leverage.
Thanks TFS for the link; A selfhating Jew makes a fool of himself
All the while another “Angry” (catchy name angry), evidently there is a shift change, although the inanity of the “comments” remain a constant.
@Ангрысоба
Well yet another evidence of someone (Ben in this case) looking into facts with closed eyes and using brainwashed brain.
In general what else would one expect from people trusting and citing RT. Bull shit and nothing else.
“In general what else would one expect from people trusting and citing RT”
Are you deliberately obtuse, or is just reading comprehension? Reading glasses?
If full international investigation is allowed (unfortunately what was denied to Uzbeks in 2005 with full support of Russia) we shall know the true sometime from now.
Uzbek- this is a start at least
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908
‘It also remind me Assad’s tactics (no doubt mastered by putin) to deny having chemical weapons and then giving up huge quantities of it to the UN inspectors.’
My recollection is that Assad was silent on his regime possessing chemical weapons prior to the UN intervention but always denied USING them against the rebels.
Uzbek in the UK: Well yet another evidence of someone (Ben in this case) looking into facts with closed eyes and using brainwashed brain.
In general what else would one expect from people trusting and citing RT. Bull shit and nothing else.
This is sadly true. If one of the separatists were to shoot someone and post a picture of the body on Twitter with the caption “I’m glad I shot the bastard”, this would still not be seen as meaningful evidence for some people here. If RT made a programme saying that the photograph never existed and that the person was shot by a Ukrainian who mistake the victim for Putin, then many commenters would agree and search for the Zionist connection.
Yes, we shall have to wait to see who can manufacture the most plausable truth.
On an unrelated matter, Craig, I tried using the BBC complaints website that you recommended some time ago. It was clearly designed to be as irritating to use as possible, page after page of useless questions, no doubt meant to wear down the patience of the most persistent person, some cleaver person needs to write an automated script to negotiate these pages quickly. I get the impression the BBC does not want to hear from the Licence payer.
Mis-identifying airframes is reason enough to avoid flying on passenger airplanes. It’s just not safe to travel anymore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
Craig,
It would be interesting to hear your view on what extent (if any) you think the current Kiev government is fascist or neo-nazi. And also on the legitimacy (or not) of the current government and how it came to power (particularly, in view of the relevant Ukrainian law and constitutional norm).
Up to and during the Euro-Maidan events I got the impression that, though there were neo-nazi elements involved, they formed a very small part of the total opposition to the previous government (perhaps no different than the proportion of far-right supporters in the general population). I’ve seen extensive footage of everyone from grandmothers, to young mothers with children, to local business owners, supporting and aiding both non-violent protesters and anti-government fighters in and around the Maidan. It seemed rather hard to read as a fascist uprising at the time.
Was this a fair interpretation at the time? Has anything changed since?
Having read Askold Krushelnycky’s ‘An Orange Revolution’ some years ago, the impression I got was that the Ukraine – more so than any leaning to the left/right or east/west – was really just struggling out from the interference of more powerful nations, particularly in the wake of WW2 and then Soviet occupation. But also that there as a secondary tendency towards thinking of itself (and wanting to be, for the most part) a European nation. Has the country changed that much in the last ten years? Or perhaps this impression was always wrong?
Has there always been a large Russian integrationist portion of the population? A had previously read, from more than one source* – that though there was a relatively small percentage of the population in Crimea and the east that preferred greater autonomy or a federated union – that very few want any sort of union with Russia or the break-up of Ukraine. Or has Ukraine been highly polarised for the last several decades?
Your previous observations on the history of Russia and its former empire have been very enlightening. (Essentially re why the borders are where they are**.) Perhaps you can shed more light here?
* Sorry, I can’t give links – this was a good while back.
** http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/06/the_killings_in/
Craig’s right. Putin’s comment says it all. He certainly knows what happened and if it was anybody other than his boys he’d be saying so very clearly. As it is, he knows it was his lot but he needs to wait to see how much of the evidence they can clean up before he can spin a story.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/ukraine-sitrep-july-17th-1555-utczulu.html
Poroshenko’s surprise
Do you remember how Poroshenko promised that if the Resistance did not surrender at the end of his truce he would go to ‘plan B’ which would be a big “surprise” for the Resistance?
Mod; Why did you delete? Very, very odd. Especially since it’s right on topic.
Monitors reach Ukraine crash site
International investigators arrive at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, after rebels in east Ukraine allow access.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/07/more-sanctions-on-russia-after-ukrainian-forces-defeated-.html
“Six days ago the Ukrainian troops fighting local federalists in the south-east were hit hard by an artillery barrage and had major losses. This map shows their locations of the four nominal brigades on the right bottom in a narrow south-eastern strip along the Russian border. The plan for these troops was obviously to cut off the federalists from the Russian border and to surround them. But that risky plan on a thin logistic string worked against them. Repeated artillery attacks and disorganization have left them incapable of further advances.’
Their defeat made someone nervous? Surprise !!!!
Thus spake Obomber
BREAKING NEWS:”Their deaths are outrage of unspeakable proportions”, US President Obama says about loss of life on Malaysian airliner
BREAKING NEWS:President Obama demands immediate ceasefire in eastern Ukraine and credible investigation into crash of Malaysian airliner
BREAKING NEWS:President Obama says Malaysian airliner was shot down by missile from separatist-held area of Ukraine
He seems to have a lot to say before any facts are known.
Cui bono Obomber?
Play ticker
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28360784
The Americans are piling in now one after another.
MH17 Investigation Cannot Rule Out Russian Role …
International Business Times - U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power addresses the UN Security Council at the UN headquarters in New York July 18, …
http://www.ibtimes.com/mh17-investigation-cannot-rule-out-russian-role-samantha-power-1632716 40 minutes ago
Perhaps it’s time we stopped selling half of our capital to Russian Mafiosi.
Mary; The script was clear on yesterday’s news of the event. They had vociferously focused on the missile as the cause before the facts were in. Putin is clearly the target.
The Americans know they’re onto a winner now. Totally hypocritical, of course, given all the death and destruction they are responsible for. Still, I think the truth is on their side in this case.
Roots of Ukraine Instability
July 18, 2014
USA Today reports: “Pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine agreed Friday to allow investigators access to the scattered crash site of a Malaysian airliner that was shot down, killing all 298 aboard. …
“Separatists and Ukraine’s government have both denied involvement.”
RAY MCGOVERN, rrmcgovern at gmail.com
McGovern is a former CIA analyst whose responsibilities included chairing National Intelligence Estimates. He is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. He regularly writes for Consortium News and just wrote the piece “When the US Welched on Its NATO Promise” which states, “The Ukraine crisis owes its roots to a deal America made and broke with the recently deceased Soviet foreign minister.” Today he said, “Lack of clarity as to who fired the missile is likely to persist for weeks, at least. Meanwhile, the shootdown provides raw meat for those who will use it to blacken Russia, just as the downing of KAL007 in 1983 allowed the Reagan administration to hype charges that the Soviet Union ‘deliberately’ downed a passenger aircraft. The evidence indicated that the Soviets thought they were downing an American spy plane, but U.S. propaganda, including the altering of electronic evidence, left no room for a ‘mistaken identity’ explanation.
“More generally, Russian President Vladimir Putin is probably correct in saying the tragedy would not have happened if Ukrainian President Poroshenko had agreed to prolong the fragile cease-fire, as the leaders of Germany, France, and Russia pleaded with him to do during a two-hour conference call on June 30th.”
http://www.accuracy.org/release/roots-of-ukraine-instability/
The pro-Russian separatists claimed to have captured a Buk missile system from the Ukr Govt but we know that that story was just cover for the Russians having supplied the system together with the (inadequate) training to operate it. Add to that situation, some grossly irresponsible decisions by civilian airliners to fly over the region to save fuel and it seems like this tragedy was just waiting to happen.
The only way out for the Russians is to blame the tragedy on operator incompetence and facilitate a safe and thorough aircrash investigation.
The commanding officer conducted himself with circumspection
The same country that is screaming the loudest went on to award;
Navy Awards Medals To Vincennes Officers
The fucking hypocrisy stinks, if there is a rush to start WWIII then get on with the fucking war already and let us leave the planet to the next lot of inhabitants whom in all probability will make a better use of it.
Ben Yes I know. I was watching the box yesterday when the crash was announced and within a few minutes the presenter was speaking of a ground to air missile and then a little later, the type of system (Buk). They think we are as green as cabbage.
I smell rotten fish…. again.
The Ukies just killed 20 civilians while shelling the Lugansk City Hall. Grief is the only appropriate reaction … But hang on. They were just a bunch of terrorist, pro-Russian, Federalist scum. Bugger them.
With the collapse of the world economy in process they need a world war to distract attention from those who have caused the collapse. Don’t lose site of those responsible, hold all of them accountable and off with their heads.. Heads are going to roll.
Here is a video claiming (among other things) that file encoding information shows the incriminating Youtube video used to place the blame for the MH17 shootdown on the pro-Russian forces was actually created the day before the incident:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMgIpC-bCfQ
“I get the impression the BBC does not want to hear from the Licence payer.”
Just the opposite. There are many ways you can air your views and Radio 4 has a program called “Feedback” to make them public.
This afternoon they had an interesting piece on the reporting of the situation in Gaza.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sp1
“The pro-Russian separatists claimed to have captured a Buk missile system from the Ukr Govt but we know that that story was just cover for the Russians having supplied the system together with the (inadequate) training to operate it.”
No we don’t know that. It was reported on the 29th of June and confirmed by the Ukrainian government.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e57_1404051041
Hypocrisy indeed Fedup…
The Russian military expert Igor Korotchenko argues that the catastrophe in Donetsk was most likely caused by the incompetence and non-professionalism of the Ukrainian operators of the Buk systems during its testing after the battery was deployed in the new location. He said that the Ukrainian anti-aircraft unit did not have any kind of proper training for the last 23 years since the collapse of Soviet Union.
For those interested in the Malaysian Boeing 777 MH17 flight path:
http://orientalreview.org/2014/07/18/who-shot-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/
Mary
18 Jul, 2014 – 5:22 pm
“MH17 Investigation Cannot Rule Out Russian Role …”
——————————
Which is of course true but it is also true that until the investigation is complete nothing can be ruled out including the involvement of Ukrainian forces or US/CIA.
But that of course was not stated by the ambassador