Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.
We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.
What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.
Resident Dissident, you claim to have a Russian wife, but you do not seem to have any concern for Russian people, or Russian separist people. Do you love your wife? Because if my wife was Russian I would be concerned for her people. I hate killing but you seem to support the government that has brought death and genocide to a civilian population that was safe under Yakunovich, who have started and continued a fascist-led assault on the ordinary citizens of Ukraine who voted in a referendum for freedom from the west.
There is a reason why you are a useless idiot
Two pieces of evidence taken from your Stalinist blog
15 – “Judging from the photos from the site of the crash, where all the pieces lie together in one place, it appears that the plane fell as a whole (i.e. some fragments may have broken off, but the fuselage remained intact). So, the aircraft well “as one piece” – i.e. it did not break apart in the air.”
13 – “According to the pattern of the spread of fuselage fragments and bodies, the plane was ruptured practically with the first shot. Here it must be mentioned that the high-explosive/fragmentation warhead of the rocket has a mass of approximately 50 kilograms (by the way, Ukrainians have an outdated modification, which is only 40 kilograms).”
They cannot both be right
You do not even bother to read and evaluate your own propaganda – it reaches the political conclusion that you want therefore it must be true.
Re the Rothschilds – you employed exactly the same technique – link to a website and then when I disproved some of the “evidence” given, you just ignored the evidence raised and continued blindly to parrot the same line. This happens either because you don’t have the intellectual faculties to argue back or because you know you are lying in pursuit of the political ends ( the old Stalinist dictum of the ends justifying the means). In order to rise to the ranks of a useful idiot you will need to be rather more skilful in covering your tracks.
“Resident Dissident, you claim to have a Russian wife, but you do not seem to have any concern for Russian people, or Russian separist people. Do you love your wife? Because if my wife was Russian I would be concerned for her people.”
You really are a cunt of the first order – it is because of concern for the Russian people and love of my wife and children, who are dual nationals, that I despise the current Russian leadership and its Stalinist predecessors.
Apologies to all others apart from the useless idiot for the foul language.
The latest Rothchilds smear linked to by the useless idiot is of course laughable – it links Allianz AG the insurers of Malaysian Airways to the Rothschilds by a Wikipedia article correctly stating that many years ago the Rothchilds were involved in founding the Alliance Insurance company in the UK (later the Sun Alliance) – Sun Alliance and Allianz are not the same company and never have been – because Alliance is Allianz in German it does not make them the same company – but hey such evidence is good enough for some.
“You really are a cunt of the first order – it is because of concern for the Russian people and love of my wife and children, who are dual nationals, that I despise the current Russian leadership and its Stalinist predecessors.”
You seem to have your wires crossed. Yanukovich did not declare war on the Russian separatists. Neither did Putin. It was your fascist friends in Kiev. The ones who are killing all the civilians in Eastern Ukraine. They will never get Eastern Ukraine back short of slavery. The people there all hate Poroshenko and the fascists with a vengeance. I will not post any of the graphic images coming through on Russia Today because they disturb me.
I’ve mentioned before that whenever you get rolled over in an argument you resort to name-calling and profanity. It is common.
Useless idiot
Whenever you doubt my love for my wife and her family you will get the same response. As for being rolled over in argument (or linking to a dubious website which you consider to be the same in your case) I note that you fail to address the glaring inconsistencies I have pointed out in your latest evidence/links.
Also please note I have no fascist friends – I stay well clear of likes of yourself.
By the way RD you conveniently missed out what Carlos the air trafic controller said about the military planes that accompanied the passenger plane. And why was it diverted? Lot of questions to be answered, but for people like yourself, who have already a set view, you don’t want to ask the questions when it concerns your beloved fascists. I did say: “It is increasingly looking like the Ukrainian military brought down the Malaysian plane.” but reserve my conclusions until after Moscow has examined the black boxes.
14 – An Industry Outlet Confirms Carlos (@spainbuca) as ATC at Borispol Airport in Kiev
Original: EturboNews (ETN Global Travel Industry News) – July 17, 2014
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.
This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.
The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.
Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.
Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.
Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.
Some tweets received suggest this may have been a secret military uprising against the current Ukrainian president under the direction of formerly-jailed Prime Minister Timoshenko.
According to other rumors, the black box for this crashed Malaysian Airlines flight was taken by Donetsk separatists. A spokesperson for the rebel group said this black box would be sent to the Interstate Aviation Committee headquartered in Moscow.
The First Deputy Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, Andrew Purgin, stated that the flight recorders of the crashed aircraft will be transferred to Moscow for examination.
Sources say the Rebel group leadership hopes this would confirm the Ukrainian military actually shot down this aircraft. This was reported by the news agency Interfax-Ukraine.
ETN statement: The information in this article is independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received.
Specially for you and your Russian family.
http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html
Translation by Phil George.
“First traces of the warhead. It seems it was not BUK-M1, this matches more with the story of Carlos, the supposed air controller in Kiev, which said that the airliner was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.
Source: http://guruinterneta.livejournal.com/32590.html
Pin warhead! Missiles used to hit air targets use a special warhead, which is only characterisitc for them with very specific traces. It consists of a bundle of sharpened pins, which are sometimes welded together (sometimes not). An opening charge is installed behind this bundle, this is basically what the “pin and shrapnel” warhead consists of. When it approaches the target at the minimal distance the warhead explodes the opening charge and this bundle of pins flies to the target at almost cosmic speed. When hitting the target such pin – only by its kinetic energy – is capable to shoot through the plane destroying the internal structure of the aircraft and completely crashing the on-board equipment. The pin kinetics is so powerful that it can even split the titanium spar in halves. Such warhead has one big advantage – the missile does not need to be perfectly accurate – it explodes before contacting the target and the pins are shot in the direction of the airplane n a cone. Even if only 2-3% of these pins hit the target, the plane is doomed – a hole in the wing or fuselage, or simply damaged cladding of the plane flying at trans-sonic speed the enormous relative airflow will destroy the damaged wing up to the very spar in less than a minute. If there is a dozen of such holes – there is simply no chance for anything.
But this is not the main point. Pin and shrapnel warheads are mainly used on air-to-air missiles because of their compact size. The anti-aircraft defense systems prefer to use high explosive and shrapnel warheads, because in a number of cases they are more efficient than pin and shrapnel ones. The picture we have here shows cladding damage characteristic for pin and shrapnel warheads. High explosive and shrapnel warhead damage looks different. This means that no BUK system hit this aircraft. Here we are dealing with either R-27 Topor or R-73 missiles, which Ukrainians have plenty of and which are installed on MIG-29 and SU-27.”
I did say: “It is increasingly looking like the Ukrainian military brought down the Malaysian plane.” but reserve my conclusions until after Moscow has examined the black boxes.
But of course you never did “reserve my conclusions until after Moscow has examined the black boxes.” or address the inconsistencies in your “evidence” that I have pointed out – but go blithely ahead with your own conclusions as to what happened.
Useless idiot
Might I suggest that you leave my family out of this if only because I have the moral integrity not to respond in kind.
John Goss: “It is increasingly looking like the Ukrainian military brought down the Malaysian plane”
Holy crap! That Putin flavoured Kool Aid must taste really nice!
Where can I get me whatever it is you’re on?
Today’s demonization from the Murdoch camp. They are repeating the revolting Kiev prop.
Rebels Accused Of Taking Bodies From Wreckage
A pro-Russian separatist stands at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region
Ukraine accuses rebels of trying to destroy evidence at the crash scene, as looters reportedly target victims’ bodies and luggage.
http://news.sky.com/story/1303759/rebels-accused-of-taking-bodies-from-wreckage
‘it is because of concern for the Russian people and love of my wife and children, who are dual nationals, that I despise the current Russian leadership and its Stalinist predecessors.’
RD-Putin is undoubtedly an authoritarian wannabe Tsar, but what do you make of the fact that the refugee flow out of the conflict areas is eastward, into authoritarian Russia, and not westward into the conflict free zones of Ukraine under the full control of the supposedly democracy loving Kiev government ?
http://www.thenation.com/article/180613/how-unrest-ukraine-sending-wave-refugees-russia#
@Oldmark: That is the best reporting of an objective fact that I have come across this week. You’d never get a job at the current BBC.
@Mary:
I’m sure there will be many in Liverpool who will see the significance of this…
The fallout seems to be increasingly surreal. Anyone seen the picture of the plane taken before boarding, and presumably sent to friends via twitter:
https://twitter.com/JeffHarrison/status/490099808158236672/photo/1
After what I read about the MH370 flight, I’m surprised (on reflection, I’m not!) that there has been no suggestion of a cyberattack.
Old Mark
Refugees are going in both directions dependent on their ethnic origin – what do you make of Russia stirring up ethnic conflicts in neighbouring countries so as to further Putin’s interests? It isn’t although he doesn’t have form on this. Was their any violence against ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine before Putin started arming local militia and sending in mercenaries and little green men? Would Russia sit quietly and do nothing were foreign governments to do the same to non Russian ethnic groups on its own territory (many of whom can point to much worse treatment than that received by Russians within the Ukraine?
“Refugees are going in both directions dependent on their ethnic origin”
Show me!
Prop merchants. Goebbels lives and Bernays would be proud. Who buys the rags anyway?
http://s23.postimg.org/dhr5l53h7/PUTIN.jpg
~~
Peacewisher you mean Kelvin McKenzie’s Sun and Hillsborough? Where is he these days? He used to be on TV incessantly.
@Mary: Yes, same pattern. Demonise any victims that they have taken a dislike to.
RD, name-calling is the first resort of those who cannot debate rationally and with good grace. I suspect it is because you are still angry with me for exposing your duplicitous nature as being ESLO by day and Resident Dissident by night and weekends, and shamefacedly praising one by the other and vice versa. That would really make me ashamed too. So I can see why you resort to schoolboy tactics. When you grow up you will be able to differentiate between a link and a person’s opinion instead of combing the link to see where you can do a bit of nit-picking. Embrace the bigger argument. And calm down! 🙂
I remember flying over a war zone (Serbia) back in April 1999 on the way to Cyprus. The family had concerns and we may even have cancelled our holiday. We were assured that the flight path would not include passing over this area, but on the way back there was great nervousness when the flight hit turbulence over the Balkans…
Biggest round of applause ever when the plane touched down safely at Heathrow!
Only four month ago Ukraine as a country was not in any big trouble, and Ukrainians had a modicum of normality in their lives, conducting themselves peacefully, that is whilst Viktor Yanukovych was the president.
Then the “democratic” Euromaidan lot shoved their way into power, and all the aspiration of the Ukrainians were achieved; Civil war, price hikes, pensions stopped, hunger, cold, famine, residents reduced to grave robbing, and stealing from the dead, as well as getting shot at around the clock by one side or the other. However, now that the place is falling apart totally, there is a need for an escape goat, any goat would do really, no need to be picky about the name.
al;though the niggling question arising; which genius decided to fly over a war zone? Was it the flight controllers? The Pilot? The airline? The passengers?
Given the degrees and levels of security caution at the airports, yet to send an airliner to fly over a war zone? What good would it have done passengers who poured their favourite booze away (liquid explosives), handed over their favourite nail cutters (could do terrible damage to the crew with that) got frisked and groped, xrayed, humiliated by the standard questions; why are you travelling? Have you packed you own bags? Are there any guns or explosives in you luggage?
Fat lot of good the security checks did, when they securocrats are sending the airliners into a war zones, with live fire action all around. Who decided on this vector, and what is being done to address this patent wilful negligence in discharge of his/her duty?
The link again.
http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/19/ukraines-ministry-interior-behind-downing-malaysian-airlines-mh17/
@John: I’m sure there is blame on both sides, and “diplomacy” will kick in. An “official narrative” will emerge that condemns both sides but will leave the mmedia listeners in no doubt that it was (probably) Russia involving itself in the affairs of a sovereign state. Wikipedia will follow this narrative. A UN report will emerge that will have no choice but to follow this narrative. This will probably be far from the truth, but I wonder how much of investigation of recent world affairs has embraced that term.
In the days before the Internet those outside the loop wouldn’t have known anything anyway, and it must be a nightmare for those trying to establish an official narrative to cope with all these tweeters and bloggers and other “enquiring minds”. Damned Internet… has a lot to answer for. lol!
When the US shoots down a passenger plane the shooter gets a medal.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-versus-iran-air-655-malaysian-airlines-boeing-777-downed-over-ukraine-kiev-regime-accuses-putin-of-sponsoring-terrorists/5391859
Not to say that this tragedy is another false flag, however just like JFK, 911 and the Boston bombing the ‘official narrative’ (that the Russian-backed separatists did it) has already been planted into the minds of the unquestioning masses. In other words what ever the truth (and we will never know what that is) it’s the most widely accepted narrative that determines the fallout …
Obama said yesterday and his parrots are all repeating…
‘Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile that was launched from an area that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists inside of Ukraine. We also know that this is not the first time a plane has been shot down in eastern Ukraine. Over the last several weeks Russian- backed separatists have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane and a Ukrainian helicopter, and they claimed responsibility for shooting down a Ukrainian fighter jet. Moreover, we know that these separatists have received a steady flow of support from Russia. This includes arms and training. It includes heavy weapons. And it includes anti-aircraft weapons.
He called it ‘a global tragedy’ but was he inadvertently foreshadowing the ultimate outcome?
Peacewisher, it would be good to get at the truth for once. There is so much garbage in the ether you can’t see the man in the moon. But yes, it will probably be a pack of lies, more fodder for the sheeple.
@John
It appears that the truth is only just starting to emerge about The Titanic so what chances will there be on this one?