Grief is the only appropriate reaction to the death of so many people on Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17. The point scoring and guessing games are macabre. Of course, some people have to suppress grief and get to work urgently to secure the crash site from interference so there can be a proper investigation of what happened.
We have no idea what evidence lies behind the various statements as to who did or did not shoot down the plane. There is no evidence I have seen that it was shot down at all. This could relate to Ukrainian violence, it could relate to MH 370, it could be an unrelated incident. We really don’t know yet.
What is particularly ghoulish is the false grief, what I might call the triumphalist shroud waving, of those seeking gleefully to blame the side they do not support in the Ukrainian conflict. In the current total absence of evidence, this is abominable behaviour.
” Normal flying height for Malaysian Airlines 777s is 35000 feet (fact) ”
No, airliners fly at the height, flight level, assigned to them by ATC. This is essential to avoid mid-air collisions.
Why would the Ukraine military bring a missile battery into a war zone to test it? Something that’s normally done out to sea in case something goes wrong. The rebels have no aircraft so Ukraine’s forces have no need of any anti-aircraft capability in the area. The rebels on the other hand have already downed several Ukrainian aircraft including an An 26 transport aircraft hit at an altitude of 22,000 ft on the 14th.
Peacewisher: Normal flying height for Malaysian Airlines 777s is 35000 feet (fact). So why instructed to fly, and tracked as flying, at 33000 feet? In terms of what happened, even sceptics should see this as suspicious.
I don’t know.
However, there are two things that are worth bearing in mind. If it was shot down by a Buk the altitude of 35,000 feet is still well within range of it. I was watching Japanese news last night which showed that the Buk could be fired to twice the altitude that MH-17 was flying at.
The second point is that according to this website, there was other traffic in the area which meant that MH-17 had to fly lower.
He said MH17 planned to fly at 35,000 feet but according to the ATC, there was other traffic at that time, and the ATC ordered the doomed plane to fly at the next best altitude at 33,000 feet, which was above the restricted altitude.
According to Malaysian Transport Minister Liow Tiong Lai, the direction given by the ATC needed to be obeyed since the route was under the ATC’s jurisdiction.
Izham said the route which MH17 flew was located about 100km from the restricted area, adding the ATC was actually the one which ensured whether any aircraft could use the route.
“The distance between the MH17 path and the restricted area was 100km away. The restricted area is located in the southern part while the MH17 path was 100km north from the restricted area,” he told a press conference at the Sama-Sama Hotel in Sepang.
Izham denied reports that MH17 had deviated from its flight path to avoid a hurricane.
“Why would the Ukraine military bring a missile battery into a war zone to test it?”
I didn’t say they did.
“The [Russian] Defense Ministry also added that the Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-malaysian-airline-mh17-likely-brought-down-by-the-ukrainian-military/5392144
Maybe they want them in case of a feared Russian attack.
I am sure Vladimir is quaking in his boots at this admonition from Phil the Goth*.
‘Philip Hammond has warned Vladimir Putin the “world’s eyes are on Russia to make sure she delivers” on her obligations to the victims killed in the Ukraine plane disaster.
The new Foreign Secretary’s comments come as pro-Russian separatists were accused of removing 38 bodies from the Malaysia Airlines crash scene and attempting to destroy evidence at the site.’
What lies contained in the second para.
http://news.sky.com/story/1303759/britain-warns-putin-worlds-eyes-are-on-you
~~~
* http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10968082/Ten-things-you-didnt-know-about-Philip-Hammond.html
Labour targets Hammond’s £7m fortune in row over Cabinet tax http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129885/Labour-targets-Hammonds-7m-fortune-row-Cabinet-tax.html
Hammond is a clever capitalist. His 23 previous directorships.
http://companycheck.co.uk/director/910418956
@Ангрысоба, and others:
1. There is no actual evidence that MH17 was downed by a BUK. Both sides have BUKs anyway. Yet the usual suspects, and their squealers seem to have found Russia guilty already… Phillip Hammond has now “summonsed” the Russian ambassador to explain himself. Wonder what happens next if he tells Hammond to f*** himself?
2. In a war zone it seems reckless to order a lower flying altitude than the norm… if it needs to be changed it should surely be changed up (e.g. 37000 feet). If the plane was downed from an aircraft with missiles of smaller range the difference would be important.
As I said before, both Ukraine and Russia can be apportioned some blame. But most of the potential contributory factors appear to be Ukrainian not Russian whereas the squealers are claiming the opposite.
To lighten up for a second …
MSNBC’s ‘The Cycle’, covering the MH17 crash, was pranked by a caller, live on air. And what does the silly woman presenting the programme do? She asks a follow-up question:
http://thebiglead.com/2014/07/17/prank-caller-trolls-msnbc-with-howard-stern-joke-during-live-malaysian-flight-coverage/
‘Refugees are going in both directions dependent on their ethnic origin.’
RD- The Nation article I linked to didn’t deny that fact; the New Republic article you linked to however made no mention of the greater number of refugees going in the opposite direction, to Russia. Given the position of the New Republic in the Neocon firmament, that is hardly surprising.
The journo who did the New Republic article you linked to has previously been employed by Radio Free Europe. Even he though doesn’t like the rabidly Russophobic atmosphere that the downing of the Malaysian airliner has exacerbated in Kiev, as his latest report shows-
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/the-plane-that-radicalized-ukraine-109104_full.html#superComments
As usual, a clear, penetrating analysis of the background to this terrible incident is provided by Patrick Cockburn in the Indy-
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-collateral-damage-is-inevitable-in-the-chaos-of-proxy-war-9615823.html
@OldMark: it was already rabidly anti-Russian. The only difference will be that they’ll make even more bellicose statements about taking back Crimea.
For my old friend RD.
Who’s to blame? Seems like the quality press knows!
http://i.imgur.com/3VQOmaL.jpg
@OldMark: Patrick Cockburn assumes that a piece of video is authentic, when video can easily be placed out of context, and easily edited. Is that not true? Any piece of video should be subjected to Independent professional analysis for tampering…
The British media seem to be well and truly owned by “the message”. Makes you want to retire to an island paradise somewhere, safe from US/Europe power politics. The possible irony is that somebody on that flight may have been trying to do just that.
@Sofia: Can you imagine the BBC showing that?
Maybe Putin (Prince of Darkness) took the afternoon off.
Maybe Kiev has been shadowing civilian airliners with military planes to provoke the NAF to shoot down a civilian airliner?
Maybe the Anti-maidans decided to fight the Ukrainian army on the ground instead of wasting time and expensive missiles trying to take down Ukie fighters at 33,000 ft. Why try this when, at a fraction of the cost, they can down them at low altitude with shoulder held missile launchers.
Maybe Poro’s handlers were getting desperate for a result.
Maybe none of the above.
Will we ever have an answer that stacks up?
100000 in current demonstration, and no mention on BBC. Most of their opening webpages devoted to demonising Russia. Are any of the trolls on this site pleased about this?
@Sofia: To quote an old song…
“The answer my friend
Is blowing in the wind…
….”
And I’ve just brought another tear to my eye as I remember the song behind “The Wind that shakes the Barley”.
Peacewisher.
BBC Ha!
Here’s the UK quality press.
http://s23.postimg.org/dhr5l53h7/PUTIN.jpg
Are’nt we lucky to have such in-depth analysis.
Putin (Prince of Darkness) did it. Why?
BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNOWS!!!
@Sofia: Just like the demonization of Saddam Hussein (worse… because they are now effectively mimicking the disgusting example of “The Sun”).
Trolls… is this the Britain you want?
Has this come into the discussion yet? Just wondering if retribution/punishment was ordered.
Bush, Blair found guilty of war crimes in Malaysia tribunal/ Judgment of the Court (PDF)
http://exopolitics.blogs.com/breaking_news/2011/11/bush-blair-found-guilty-of-war-crimes-in-malaysia-tribunal-judgment-of-the-court-pdf.html
~~~
Hammond wants to get to the truth. Of course, we are told the truth always by our political masters in the West. 😉
An interesting conversation going on here.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4046811478707691837&postID=95726489524691385
Sample:
Larchmonter445 said…
“…The body of the plane’s skin shows that the strike was with rods not cubed shrapnel the BUK uses in its missiles warhead.
This points to air-to-air missile strike. At 30,000 feet.
The plane, as in all crashes, will tell the truth.
The black box might indicate something ambiguous.The voice recorder might tell us little. But the exterior of the plane in very good condition already tells us hypersonic penetration of the skin by “arrows”.
Maybe they thought the BUK was going to work and it didn’t and so they finished the plane with a missile from a jet.
Maybe they thought it would fall into their territory and it didn’t so they couldn’t hide the evidence of a missile strike air-to-air.
The war is being run by Western non-professionals and incompetent Ukies. It is a means to an end, not a war fought to be won. After all, it is a war with Russia, not with the militia. Even the dolts in Kiev understand that much. It is meant to destroy Russia rising economically and Putin personally.
But it is boys and gays and women with no combat knowledge, specifically, CIA case officers who are stoked that military actions finally came to Ukraine, that the stooge agents they manage are following their orders moving troops and tanks and blasting cities to rubble.
This is war with all its horrors but it is an amateur hour Kievian production. Comedy movies will be made about in subsequent years, because it is farce and tragedy mixed in ideological wrappings.
In the end of this shoot down, the 777 will tell its story. It will get spun into more porridge of lies and deceit. But we already have the photographic proof of the “how”. And it tells us the “who”.
And we know the “why”.
They needed a break on the ground, not a propaganda win. That’s just a bonus. They need to break out of the boilers. They need to keep attacking Lugansk unmercifully. They need to reacquire ground lost at the airports……” .
19 July, 2014 14:18
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html
The nationalities.
Straight from the horse’s mouth
These bastards have learnt to kill a few civilians and then parade their corpses around and push for their own ending. Make me sick the fucking ghouls.
OldMark, 19 Jul, 2014 – 4:04 pm
I’m pleased one journalist has seen the light. Maxim Eristavi is to be applauded for recognising who the culprits are.
With the other article, in May when Poroshenko came to power with promises of peace and has done nothing since but bomb his own people. Perhaps somebody encouraged him to do an article on the ‘thousands’ of people leaving Eastern Ukraine for Kiev to avoid bombing from Kiev. It’s true he managed to find three, which only leaves an ‘invisible’ 1,997, like my 3 ton of invisible gold bullion in the cellar. Still a bit of hyperbole is not unexpected from those with continual exposure to MSM and Kyivpost.
“Being called a fascist and insinuations about my family is something else.”
Find where I called you a fascist? You called me both a fascist and a Stalinist, but you would never find anything to make either label stick.
sofia; Did you review the video showing potential ‘chaff’? Your analysis would be good.
Here is video in question… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUltrf8n_vA&feature=youtu.be
I searched for video of countermeasures, but all I found was contrail, but it seems similar if you discount that the flaring had burnt out at lower altitudes after falling 30,000 feet.
http://contrailscience.com/ac-130-flares-and-chaff/
More drive-by pot shots by RD. He lays a turd, then walks away leaving his stink behind. A worthy contribution.
So what do we know?
This crash occurred exactly fifty years to the day that TWA800 was lost at New York. The official explanation for that was a spark-induced explosion in the centre fuel tank but many eyewitnesses claimed to have seen a ground-to-air missile streaking towards the aircraft before it disintegrated.
The recent crash occurred at almost the same time as the Israeli move into Gaza began and has dominated the media.
The plane was said to be flying 200km north of the normal route taken by other MH17 flights.
Some reports suggest that the aircraft was accompanied by two fighter jets.
An explosion was conveniently filmed from the ground but the footage does not show the moment of impact of something large falling from the sky.
No missile trail is visible and there is no smoke left in the sky from a descending, burning aircraft – if it was.
Eyewitness said bodies were falling from the clouds, followed by the fuselage. Bodies were landing on the ground and on rooves. The fuselage came down a short distance from houses where bodies were said to have landed. This appears to indicate no forward motion, which is a little odd when the aircraft had been travelling at several hundred km per hour.
The fuselage and engines did not make a massive hole in the ground as at Lockerbie (that is another story worthy of re-examination).
The aircraft crashed in, effectively, in a war zone, making it difficult (intentionally?) for investigators to gain immediate access.
Some of the bodies appear to show remarkably little damage after falling from a great height and are close to burnt-out areas of wreckage.
However, a report in the Washington Post, republished by the Daily Mail, features an extraordinary claim by a rebel commander in Ukraine. Quote:
The rebel commander blamed for shooting down flight MH17 has made bizarre claims that bodies at the crash site ‘aren’t fresh’.
Pro-Russian separatist Igor Girkin has claimed corpses near the debris died days before the plane took off.
According to rebel website Russkaya Vesna, the leader was told by people at the scene in eastern Ukraine that ‘a significant number of the bodies were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.’
End quote.
According to investigator Jim Stone (jimstonefreelance.com), the Flight Radar 24 schedule for MH17 shows that the flight for the 17th July was cancelled. He has a high-res photograph of a PC screen appearing to show that is the case.
There is an intense media drive underway to pin the blame on Putin and dissidents in Ukraine.
What are we to make of all this? Well one possible explanation is that we are looking at the final resting place of MH370 and the remains of some its passengers, who have been dead for a long time.
“sofia; Did you review the video showing potential ‘chaff’? Your analysis would be good.”
I looked at the video Ben and I don’t understand how the chaff could be falling in the same place as the plane wreckage.
Chaff is very light, aluminium foil, it would float on the slightest breeze, the winds at 33,000 feet would be strong. I would expect the chaff to end up hundreds of miles away.
“It’s true he managed to find three, which only leaves an ‘invisible’ 1,997, like my 3 ton of invisible gold bullion in the cellar.”
Oh well the UNHCR have found another 53,977 for the useful idiot to wilfully ignore
http://www.dw.de/unhcr-reports-sharp-increase-in-people-fleeing-eastern-ukraine/a-17741546
Who stands to gains from this mass murder in the skies above Eastern Ukraine? Pretty basic question, one would think. Pretty obvious answer.