I am an anti-militarist. But I believe violence in defence can be justified. The Israeli mass killings by bombing in Gaza are absolutely unjustified. I also oppose the random and ineffective rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel. But when Israeli ground troops actually move into Gaza, it is my sincere hope that the Palestinians kill as many as are necessary to stop them. That is justified, legal and necessary.
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Arsalan/MJ “They do have an excuse. They always do.”
No, without the rockets, they don’t have the excuse for aerial bombardment. Sure they’ll always find an excuse for all the other stuff. The rockets just play into the Israelis hands – and they’re increasingly futile as weapons.
“I wonder if there is a point (?invasion of Gaza) where it would be legally justified to target foreign supporters of the Israeli government?”
No, is the answer basically. You have the right to target combatants attacking you. That’s it. In modern warfare a country’s infrastructure also gets attacked – as the Israelis frequently do in Gaza. I think it would be legal for the Palestinians, had they the capability, to take out Israel’s utilities and transport system. It would certainly be a proportionate response. But to take out Tony Blair, sadly, I don’t think is legal.
Je
Absolutely, the rockets are counter-productive and deplorable.
Israeli ground troops have already gone in
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-13/pro-palestinian-rally-held-in-sydney/5593180
Violence arises when agreed limits are breached. The Agreed Limits in this particular negotiation so far as Israel is concerned are that Israel permanently owns the land that their ancestors were promised. So far as Palestinians are concerned the ownership of the land is very often established by Ottoman Empire records in Istanbul.
The starting point for ending violence would be that both of those claims are now obsolete. The Ottoman Empire fell when its Muslim political rivals in the Middle East conspired with the British Empire to remove it.
The lesson to be learned from that, which political Islam has still not managed to learn, is not to try to gain advantage for Islam through political collaboration with its enemies. Muslim power comes from Muslim good deeds, establishing Justice and worshipping God. Anything else is like a worm ouroboros.
To break the cycle of violence Muslims have to rediscover the meaning of justice from the forgotten teachings of the Qur’an instead of doing it the political way their fathers have done for over 1000 years.
If the mosque starts with spying on the Muslims at micro level and goes on to deal unfairly at business or local or government or international level, eventually you will get violence, and violence against violence. Human beings do not appreciate being cheated. You think that 2 + 2 = 4, sign the deal and discover that your counterpart in the agreement is saying that 2 + 2 = 5.
Somebody finds you a wife, then after you are married they tell you that because they found you a wife they can spy on you to check if you’re being a good husband.
The British knew what they wanted from breaking the Ottoman Empire, oil, Palestine etc and it cost them 2 world wars and an Empire. The Kurdish knew what they wanted from breaking the Ottoman Empire, Caliphate and increased power to Sunni Islam, but it cost them by their country being divided and placed under the power of their enemies and the complete loss of the Caliphate for the Ummah.
Both sides were trying to cheat the other. If you don’t want violence, then don’t cheat. As both of them like violence as a way of sorting out their cheating, the world has been in a mess because of them ever since. The main mess being the British creation of Israel on account of Kurdish ambition for theological power.
History repeats.
“without the rockets, they don’t have the excuse for aerial bombardment”
Israel needs no excuse for air strikes. It goes on all the time. Are you not aware for instance that when the EU funded a new hospital in Gaza, Israeli contractors built the thing, then as soon as it was completed the IDF bombed it to pieces?
And the French built airport and the electricity and water plants over and over.
Short and to the point. Couldn’t agree more. Big regards to you, Craig.
“No, without the rockets, they don’t have the excuse for aerial bombardment.”
And that’s all it is, an excuse. They’re bombarding Gaza in revenge – for the deaths of three teenagers. They have blamed Hamas for those, but have provided no evidence. None. Reminds me of Bush announcing bin Laden was to blame for 9/11 and then bombarding Afghanistan. The U.S. is another “exceptional country” which thinks it can do what it likes. The U.S. and Israel are well suited.
I’m so angry I have to take time out and read a ‘funny’ book. Some of the photos on Twitter would make you cry. It’s not a case of people being ‘quietly smothered’ under piles of rubble. There is blood everywhere and gaping wounds. There is a lack of hospital space, a lack of medics, and a lack of medications. Lack of water and lack of electricity.
It is horrific. Disproportionate doesn’t even cover it. It’s fish in a barrel. And it’s disgusting.
“Follow @ReturnPal for PHOTOS of #GazaUnderAttack reality not shown by your media. Don’t complain they are graphic. Genocide is ‘graphic’!”
I found this excellent essay which provides perspective.
Repetition and Death in the Colony: On the Israeli Attacks on Gaza
by Nimer Sultany • 11 July 2014
Repetition is merely the sign for the oppressed to surrender to fate. Either you accept your suffering or you unleash more suffering. Only eventual freedom will give meaning to the deaths of Gazans.
http://criticallegalthinking.com/2014/07/11/repetition-death-colony/
Only one thing. The people are Palestinians, not ‘Gazans’.
About the author.
http://www.soas.ac.uk/staff/staff86825.php
Je
But Israel did use airstrikes before rockets existed. And they did use airstrikes during during ceasefire.
The way Israel sees things is, peace means they attack when they want whenever they want.
You said such attacks without Palestinian rocket fire can not be justified.
Well they wouldn’t need to be.
The press wouldn’t even report it.
The press only start reporting on things when Palestinians start fighting back.
What Israel does is it attacks, and kills some people without need to justify because no one will say anything.
And when Palestinians do anything in response, they will kill a lot more people using that as an excuse.
The Palestinians have the right to do whatever they want.
I wont hold it against them that they scare a few people who stole their homes and their farmland with a few fireworks inresponse to the Israelis killing lots of them and maiming loads more.
I can find a Wikipedia list of ‘Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel’ in great detail but absolutely NO list of ‘Israeli attacks on Gaza’. Isn’t that strange? 😉
arsalan “But Israel did use airstrikes before rockets existed. ”
Yes, when there were other forms of armed resistance. Zionism can be defeated – in the same way Apartheid was. By demographics, peaceful resistance, a demand for justice, and outside pressure. Armed resistance doesn’t work when the imbalance of arms is so great. All we’re seeing is a one-sided slaughter.
Good on President Maduro.
Venezuela’s Maduro Launches “SOS Palestine” Campaign to Demand End to Israeli Bombardment
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10788
Part of the problem is the public perception that all is well until Hamas, or ISIS or Takfiris are firing rockets at civilian centers,
The IDS facebook page was full of caucasians cheering the Israelis for returning fire. What’s missing is the human face of oppression leading to malnutrition, high infant mortality and scarce potable water. I’ve had many direct conversations with Palestinian emigres and they never have an answer when I remind them of the futility of fact-to-face military confrontation with Israel,. Just as it would have been foolish (but understandable) if Mohandas became a mad bomber, or MLK had called for insurrection, rather than ‘non-cooperation’.
Of course all this would be easier if the Media would assist with the humanitarian side of the equation. Lacking that, just as many were crushed/killed by the British/ Southern US juggernaut, there has to be a willingness to turn the tide of public perception with suffering that is not muddied by random violence.
Hell brought to earth. Unwatchable. From Harry Fear’s Twitter.
https://twitter.com/harryfear/status/488094162261385216
Norman Finkelstein on HRW. HRW should be renamed.
…. War Criminals’ Stooge Inc. or similar.
Roth’s record is appalling esp on Syria.
http://normanfinkelstein.com/2014/hrw-murders-apologists/
Britain’s chief Zionist, Lord Janner, is pulling an Ernest Saunders and avoiding prosecution for paedophilia by claiming senility. Can someone with a research bent find out for me when he last claimed his House of Lords attendance allowance?
“it is my sincere hope that the Palestinians kill as many as are necessary to stop them”
– The logical and morally correct aspect of that statement is of course it’s applicability to ALL Zionist theft and aggression against the indigenous population of Palestine. Zionist Israyhell has no legitimacy other than that of the “right” of overwhelming brutality. My Zion be purged and Palestine restored sooner rather than later.
My friends who are muslims deplore the islamo-fascists, I am not a christian – but coming from that culture, I deplore those fundamentalists who claim “christian” justification. The greatest condemnation of extremism comes from those whose beliefs are traduced. I do not know a supporter of ‘radical’ Islam, I have many friends who are radical in the sense that they wish, pray and work for a fair society.
Anon; 2.31pm
“No doubt Murrayistas will be queuing up to denounce your rabid anti-Semitism.
‘Murrayistas’ (whoever they are)can all fuck off.
I haven’t even started to mention my friends of the Jewish faith – Miss Castello, do you have friends?
It is tiresome for westerners to tut that Palestinian rockets are counter productive.
Israel treated the Palestinians like shit before the rockets and they would treat them like shit if the rockets stopped tomorrow. It has nothing to do with the rockets. The rockets are a sign of desperate rage.
Illegal? Who the fuck cares about the law? Funny how the law cannot stop relentless massacre but it will be quoted to defend mass murderers.
Kick a dog for years and when it eventually bites back would you say the nip is disproportionate because it is against the law?
Any Palestinian, no anyone, who killed Blair would be a hero. Fuck the law. It’s their law.
Mary @ 4:59pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_strikes_and_Palestinian_casualties_in_Operation_Protective_Edge
As usual for Wikipedia articles on Israel/Palestine, the associated discussion pages (including in this case the AFD page) can be more illuminating than the article itself (click on the “Discussion” and “View history” tabs).
“Venezuela’s Maduro Launches “SOS Palestine” Campaign to Demand End to Israeli Bombardment”
___________________-
His energies might be better deployed in trying to solve his own country’s political, economic and social woes, which are considerable.
Typical distraction!
I agree about David Mellor Craig. There is no one with a wide world view in the present government. The emphasis is on increasing personal wealth. The greater good does not enter into it. Mellor was a Swanage Grammar schoolboy and there’s the difference from the Bullingdon Boys posse with their Eton background.
Ref Janner, the last claim I can see is for August 2013 for one day @ £300. In July, 2013 he claimed £2,850 for 19 days.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/lords-finance-office/2013-14/allowances-expenses-2013-14-month-5-August-2013.pdf
I had not realized that there were so many lords and ladies at the collective trough. 21 pages or so x 35 entries per page = 700 approx.
His dementia must have been sudden and rapid.
His daughter is a Reform rabbi. http://www.jewishtelegraph.com/prof_184.html
Craig
You have certainly stirred the troops into “action”. But, nevertheless, there are some nuggets of good sense among the dross of the comments.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But it’s Sunday evening, I’m feelong strict,and I want to tease you. So would you please compare and contrast the following :
“Having answered you, any other off-topic derailment efforts (from anybody) will be deleted.”
and
“Britain’s chief Zionist, Lord Janner, is pulling an Ernest Saunders and avoiding prosecution for paedophilia by claiming senility. Can someone with a research bent find out for me when he last claimed his House of Lords attendance allowance?”
Disclaimer : I am not related or in any way connected with Lord Janner and/or any organisation with which he is connected.
🙂
John Goss; 3.09 pm
Do israeli’s not have a mouth, and a brain to go with it? They don’t appear to have any problems shouting “Death to Arabs” do they? isra-hell doesn’t need apologists for its filthy war crimes. It has Britain & the US of Assholes for that.
Extract;
‘Show me the Fuhrer to lay all the blame
Where were the cry’s of “not in my name”
As you watched from the sidelines, ‘Gurion’s Game’
immune to the suffering of grief loss and pain
Dave to Goliath, roles now reversed
Victim to bully, chapter and verse
Goebbels to Gaza, shades of ‘Mein Kampf
Checkpoints and cameras, ID cards to stamp’
Hard to believe, in the land of one’s birth
1.7 million denied freedom, self worth
Whilst Wankers in Whitehall, free roam this earth’
(Copyright).
ROCKETS;
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/11/dissecting-idf-propaganda-the-numbers-behind-the-r)ocket-attacks.html