Between 4 and 20 August the Saudi Arabian government beheaded 19 people. Saudi Arabia, which has funded and armed ISIS from inception (initially with CIA support), is now bombing alongside the USA in Iraq and Syria.
Forget the war technology porn regularly being broadcast by western media, with those spectacular photos of missiles erupting from ships into the night sky. Those missiles and bombs eviscerate and maim innocents as well as combatants, children as well as terrorists. The West always first denies, then regrets, “collateral damage”. The propaganda can be laughable. During the invasion of Iraq I remember a news propaganda item about how a cruise missile can enter a specific window, being followed by the next item – the US had apologised to Syria for two missiles aimed at Iraq which had hit Syria by accident.
If we can accidentally bomb the Chinese Embassy in Serbia, we can – and do – hit civilian homes near the proposed target. Being eviscerated by a piece of flying shrapnel is no less terrible than being beheaded by a jihadist. Let us not pretend that our violence is somehow nicer. Children will be dying under our bombs soon.
Other than the two extraordinary crazed Nigerians, there have been no recent Islamic motivated terrorist attacks in the UK and even a slowdown in the propaganda of phoney attacks. This was a threat to the major financial interests of the security industry, in both its governmental and private branches.
There can be no greater nonsense than the idea that the Caliphate poses a direct threat to the UK. This is even more crazy than the claim that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the UK. But by seeking to join in the bombing campaign, and initiating a new round of fake “anti-terror” arrests in London, the British government is doing everything it possibly can do to try to provoke terrorist violence on British streets. The interests of the security state are therefore secured. I am longing for somebody to explain to me the precise mechanism by which our bombing Islamic countries helps prevent terrorist incidents in the UK. The way it can provoke such incidents seems to me too obvious to need stating. Indeed it says a great deal for the wisdom and tolerance of Britain’s Muslim communities that it has not provoked more. They could teach government a great deal about the good sense of not resorting to violence to gratify passions and earn short term acclaim.
Libya has been witnessing numerous clashes between government forces and rival militant groups that refuse to lay down arms.
The armed militant groups are now turning their guns on each other in an attempt to dominate politics and the country’s vast oil resources.
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What excellent timing Libya is in a state of turmoil, since the coalition forces are in the area, they may as well bomb the shit out of Tripoli as well. I’m sure there’s still some kids left they haven’t killed yet.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/26/380052/violence-in-libya-must-stop-un/
Habbabkuk,
“considerable expertise”..
In what??
Narcissistic pomposity?
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
― Frank Herbert, Dune
“Or do ISIS want to liquidate the Kurds and then set up their caliphate? ”
That is their plan, they are attempting to create their own caliphate with their leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, as caliph. There is no room for Kurds in this plan, they convert or the die, they don’t get any other choices it’s genocide time.
(NaturalNews) Is there really such a thing as a “sheeple” mentality — a tendency by the vast majority of us to follow along mindlessly, and without resistance? Yes, according to a series of research projects over the past couple of years which concluded that following the crowd is a distinct human trait.
Writing for The Wall Street Journal, Luci Gutierrez compared the phenomenon to people who view a sporting event, like a football match.
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Well what do you know the “Sheeple” syndrome actually exists, Fred and Habb the Torturer, will be pleased to know, now what they’re suffering from.
http://www.naturalnews.com/047017_sheeple_mob_mentality_psychology.html
Habbabkuk,
“considerable expertise”..
In what??
Narcissistic pomposity?
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JIVES
Well said, and spot on.
Here are two contributions from MPs who voted “No”. The PM has taken drafting lessons from senior civil servants on how to be economical with la verité. Nothing in what he says justifies his claim that British pilots dropping bombs is “exactly the way” the Kurdish leaders in Iraq told him they would “like us to help”.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green):
Will the Prime Minister recognise that killing extremists does not kill their ideas? On the contrary—it can often feed their ideas, and for that reason the former MI6 head of counter-terrorism has said that getting Saudi Arabia and Iran around a negotiating table would be far more effective than bombing. Why are we not hearing far more from this Prime Minister about the political and diplomatic solutions to this situation, rather than reaching for the military solution, which could undermine them?
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP):
I am listening closely to what the Prime Minister is saying. He has talked about the international coalition, but the Peshmerga fighters from the Kurds have taken a lot of the brunt of fighting ISIL in the first instance. Can he assure us that all the parties within Iraq also support this intervention, in particular the Kurdish political leadership?
The Prime Minister:
What I can be clear about, having spoken to them, is that both the Kurdish leaders in Iraq and the Iraqi Prime Minister have been frank that they want our help. They have both said very clearly, “We do not want British combat troops on the ground, but we do need the arms and the ability to defeat this murderous, terrorist organisation.” We are helping in exactly the way they would like us to help.
“JIVES
Well said, and spot on.”
Ask him for his address, he might let you suck his cock as well as lick his arse.
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has ordered his cabinet to “temporarily” close the border with Russia in the east.
In a decree published on the presidential website on Thursday, Poroshenko instructed his government to consider temporarily closing the border in the east of the country to stop what he called Moscow’s “continued intervention” in Ukraine’s internal affairs.
The ruling orders the government “to settle the issue of temporary closing checkpoints on Ukraine’s state border with the Russian Federation to cars, sea and pedestrian traffic.”
Poroshenko’s remarks come days after the third Russian humanitarian aid convoy of about 200 vehicles crossed the border into the Ukrainian territory.
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This is definitely not a good sign,and will seriously hinder the peace process, but I suppose the puppet President Poroshenko, has to do what his western masters tell him to do.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/09/25/379963/ukraine-to-close-border-with-russia/
Ask him for his address, he might let you suck his cock as well as lick his arse.
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Tisk Tisk, Fred your ugly side is showing, mind you you’re a O/O Britnat, so I guess you have no nice side, what a shame, Rule Britannia, and all that nonsense.
A thoughtful contribution to the debate from a Conservative MP (who has served in the army) who voted “No”:
Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con):
I believe that when Members think of ISIS, they think of a foreign fighter, dressed in black, holding before him a terrified offering dressed in orange—a kind of spectre or ghost, screaming at us out of cyberspace. Last week I was in Iraq with my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), and an Iraqi said to me, “You’ve got to see ISIS in Iraq like this: it’s the good, the bad and the ugly.” The good are the Sunni tribesman, rising up against the sectarian Government in Baghdad, the bad are the foreign jihadists, and the ugly are the former Ba’athist regime people whom my regiment fought in the first gulf war. Who will kick out the bad, the jihadists? The only people on the ground who will be able to do that are the good and the ugly—the tribes and the Ba’athists.
Time and time again, we see that the only way to remove people like ISIS is without the consent of the local people. It is overwhelmingly a political problem, even if it is a security headache. It is not a first-order clash between the west and the Muslim world but one between neighbours. In Iraq, it is a sectarian conflict. ISIS did not take over Iraq’s second biggest city by magic or by force of arms, they took it over because the local people allowed them to. One of my friends from the war in 2003 said that for people in Mosul, there is very little difference between living under a sectarian Shi’a Government and living under ISIS. He said, “The only difference, actually, is that ISIS won’t let you smoke.” That might be overdoing it somewhat, but we have had only the most limited reports of Sunni resistance from inside the great swathe of territory that ISIS controls.
None of that excuses the extraordinary cruelty of ISIS, but before we even think about anything beyond emergency air strikes in Iraq and escalation into Syria, ought we not to stop and work out what needs to be done politically and how we might take the political ground back from ISIS? At Sandhurst, they taught us that military force is exercised to support political ends, and that politics should dictate the terms of military engagement. As we have heard, John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, has worked hard to put together a coalition, but if we tried to make up the worst way to start the campaign, it would be with headlines around the world, including the Muslim world, referring to “US-led air strikes”.
“Iraq War Debate: Watch George Galloway’s Controversial Speech”
I have to chuckle, seems it’s only when a speech containes some truth it’s ‘cotroversial’. Pure lies seem to do ok.
O shit, don’t say that, It contains facts and stuff, sky falling in.
“Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has ordered his cabinet to “temporarily” close the border with Russia in the east.”
So what the fuck has that to do with ISIS? Stupid cunt too thick to know the difference between Ukraine and Iraq.
Let me try and explain it to you at a personal level so you realise I am not racist – and that is not what it is all about.
They are not a race..They are an Alien Culture…
All races and even Religions are Pretty much the Same..I know – please believe me…this is not a Religious or Race Battle – though people even me sometimes try and explain it in these simplistic terms…
Basically it is This Battle
96% Human Race (that’s us) VS Them 4% (The Psychopaths)
We are failing miserably cos we are not evil. They are.
Tony
One of the few contributions to the debate which gave attention to the role of Saudi Arabia:
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab):
This is the third time during my lifetime in Parliament that I have been asked to vote to invade or bomb Iraq. I have voted against on previous occasions, and I will not support the motion today. I ask the House to think a little more deeply about what we have done in the past and what the effects have been. We have still not even had the results of the Chilcot inquiry.
The current crisis descends from the war on terror, the ramifications of which have been vast military expenditure by western countries and the growth of jihadist forces in many parts of the world. Many people have lost their lives, and many more have had their lives totally disrupted and are fleeing warzones to try to gain a place of safety. Only two weeks ago, it was reported that 500 migrants had died trying to cross the Mediterranean to get into Malta, and many die every day trying to get to Lampedusa. Many of those people are victims of wars throughout the region for which we in this House have voted, be it the bombing of Iraq, the bombing of Libya, the intervention in Mali or the earlier intervention in Afghanistan.
We need to give a moment’s thought to where the problems come from. The growth of the Taliban came from 1979, when the west decided to support the opposition in Afghanistan. The Taliban morphed into al-Qaeda, which then morphed into various other forces in Africa, particularly in Nigeria, and of course into the current group, ISIL. That is an absolutely appalling group of people—there is no question whatever about that. Their behaviour, with the beheading and abuse of people, is quite appalling.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab):
Will my hon. Friend comment on the argument that the air strikes have so far prevented the expansion of ISIL forces? Would more air strikes go further in preventing ISIL from taking more ground?
Jeremy Corbyn:
The air strikes have had some effect, but I do not believe that further air strikes and the deepening of our involvement will solve the problem. I will come to that in a moment, if I may.
We are right to talk about ISIL’s appalling human rights record, but we should be careful with whom we walk. The Prime Minister pointed out that there had been a ministerial visit to Saudi Arabia to get it on side in the current conflict. We sell an awful lot of arms to Saudi Arabia, and there is an awful lot of Saudi money in London in property speculation and various other investments. Saudi Arabia routinely beheads people in public every Friday, executing them for sex outside marriage, religious conversion and a whole lot of other things, but we have very little to say about human rights abuses there because of the economic link with Saudi Arabia. If we are to go to war on the basis of abuses of human rights, we should have some degree of consistency in our approach.
One should be cautious of the idea that bombing will be cost-free and effective. There was a military attack in Tikrit on 1 September, as reported by Human Rights Watch. It was an attempt to strike at a supposed ISIL base of some sort in a school. It resulted in 31 people being killed, none of whom was involved in ISIL, which was nowhere near. We will get more of that.
I believe that the motion that we are being asked to support will lead us into one war after another. There has to be a political solution and political development in the region. I have had a lot of e-mails on the subject, including one this morning from a lady aged 91 that said, “War begets violence, which begets the next war.” We need to take a different stance.
“John was a shop steward for a Union.”
I feel a song coming on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs
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So what the fuck has that to do with ISIS? Stupid cunt too thick to know the difference between Ukraine and Iraq.
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You’ll note Fred that the top comment of yours, has nothing to do with Iraq, or ISIS/ISL but I haven’t slated you for going off topic have I now.
You Britnat Orange Order God save the Queen types are all a wee bit deluded, stop acting so puerile, away and iron your Sash.
Palestinian factions Hamas and Fatah reached an agreement on Thursday by which the Palestinian Authority will take control over the Gaza Strip. The deal also includes Hamas’ consent for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, according to a Fatah official.
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I’m pretty sure the Israeli murdering monsters won’t be happy at that, the head of the viper Netanyahu,will need to up his genocidal game.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.617732
Juteman
“I agree, the west should protect folk in the middle east by not bombing them.”
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There’s a whole discussion to be had on whether the UK govt. should or should not get involved and all you can do is to come up with the above comment, silly in its glibness?
I advise you to stick to “discussing” matters Scottish.
“You Britnat Orange Order God save the Queen types are all a wee bit deluded, stop acting so puerile, away and iron your Sash.”
How did you like the song shit for brains?
BTW you lost the referendum.
Thick shit turd of a Nazi holocaust denier.
A further thoughtful contribution to the debate. If I were a Labour Party supporter it would worry me considerably that this comes from a Conservative backbencher and noit my own party leader.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con):
For two thirds of my adult lifetime, we have been dropping bombs on Iraq, and as the hon. Member for Bradford West (George Galloway) said, actually, we have been doing it for 100 years. Each time we do it, we think it is going to make things better. The evidence suggests that each time we do it, we make things worse. I voted against the Iraq war in 2003 because I thought it would make things worse. The Deputy Prime Minister was not a Member of Parliament at the time, but many Liberal Democrats did vote against it and they were right: it did make things worse.
The Leader of the Opposition countered the argument that if we do anything, we will make things worse by saying that if we pass by, we will make it harder to persuade Arab countries to play their part. I find that quite a difficult argument to understand. The House of Commons Library tells me that in the top 18 Muslim countries in the world, of which 13 are Arab—the other five are Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Indonesia—there are 2.8 million men under arms. It seems to me that if fellow Muslims—co-religionists—are being threatened in this part of Iraq and Syria, the first response would be from Muslim countries. Those top 18 Muslim countries—perhaps many others as well—would be the first to put their soldiers’ lives on the line, although not necessarily all of them. Of course, not all of them would be available, but out of 2.8 million soldiers enough could probably be found to do the job, especially if other countries, including those in the west and in the Gulf, could be found to pay for them. They would not excite the natural suspicion and antagonism that will be aroused by any involvement by the west. However, that has not happened yet.
Perhaps the single most important contribution I have heard today was from the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher), who said that there are big questions to ask about the regional powers that have been supporting ISIL. That issue has hardly been touched on in the debate. We have heard that Turkey has yet to make up its mind, and there are big concerns that some of the Gulf states—and Saudi Arabia itself—are partly supporting ISIL.
The truth is that Islam faces its own version of the thirty years war. The idea that we can solve the problem by supporting one side in this war is absolutely delusional. It is only Muslims who can decide locally for themselves whether they wish to live together or to die together. There is a role for the United Nations and the five permanent members—including Russia and China—and we quite possibly could get a resolution through, including all five permanent members, if we but tried.
Ben
““The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right.”
Henrik Ibsen”
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Great to see you’re still posting quotes, Ben! You’re obviously very well read.
Can we please have some more – even lots more? Thanks!
“I’m pretty sure the Israeli murdering monsters won’t be happy at that, the head of the viper Netanyahu,will need to up his genocidal game.”
Says the Jew hater general and holocaust denier in chief.
Loser.
“Everybody should read this, but of course most won’t”
Thanks for the endorsement Pete Fairhurst. You’re right of course. They’ll sit listening and watching the vomit spewed out by MSM till it comes out of their earholes but when it comes to something factual and accurate it is too much for them to absorb. I sent a copy to Steve McCabe, my MP, and reminded him of how he has already voted once for an illegal war. He obviously did not read it. Because now he has voted for a second illegal war.
So we’re bombing innocents again. The fighters always assemble in populated areas hoping that these will not be targeted. Instead civilians are killed in their scores. I am more cynical than most here and believe, as they did with Fallujah, they will be testing out their latest range of illegal weapons.
Iain Orr and others, thank you for the voting records. It was predicatable.
How did you like the song shit for brains?
BTW you lost the referendum.
Thick shit turd of a Nazi holocaust denier.
____________________
Says the Jew hater general and holocaust denier in chief.
Loser.
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Ah, now we see the **REAL** Fred full of profanity and Britnat anger, you wouldn’t have looked out of place at George Square during the violent Orange Britnat Orders,assaults, Rule Britannia and God save the Queen, rubbish.
RoS
“You’ll note Fred that the top comment of yours, has nothing to do with Iraq, or ISIS/ISL but I haven’t slated you for going off topic have I now.”
________________
Indeed you haven’t.. Must be because you’re such a tolerant, balanced, sane sort of chappie.
Just look at them. Going along like it’s nothing to increase the terrorist risk. + The inevitable rise of extremists in the UK.
This is all illegal. Immoral. And they don’t bat a eyelid.
O it’s merely ‘political’.
People in that house, in the guardian and the rest of the media are completely off there heads. It s like normality only is if we are bombing people in other countries. Like Phew, let’s go back to taking about Tonys great advocacy for gay people.?
Totally nuts.
p: Machinery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=660ZCEhvbnw
Mr Goss
“…but when it comes to something factual and accurate it is too much for them to absorb.”
__________________
Have you absorbed what you’ve learned about the Falklands, Mr Goss (cf. posts above)?
Mr Goss
“It was predicatable.”
_______________
As predicatable as most of your posts are nonsensicable, Mr Goss.
“Ah, now we see the **REAL** Fred full of profanity and Britnat anger, you wouldn’t have looked out of place at George Square during the violent Orange Britnat Orders,assaults, Rule Britannia and God save the Queen, rubbish.”
You probably wouldn’t look out of place in Edinburgh Zoo, knuckle dragging Neo Nazi thick shit Holocaust denying retard.
Glasgow, pro-Palestinian activists shut down Thales UK factory who make drones tied to the slaughter in Gaza by the murderous Israeli’s. The brave few even hung a Palestinian flag from the building.
I’m so glad Glasgow is on the side of the persecuted Palestinians, well most of them anyway, some unionist Britnat Rangers fans have been seen flying Israeli flags, I thought Neanderthals were extinct Oh well.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/glasgow-activists-arrested-shutting-down-drone-maker-tied-gaza-slaughter