Between 4 and 20 August the Saudi Arabian government beheaded 19 people. Saudi Arabia, which has funded and armed ISIS from inception (initially with CIA support), is now bombing alongside the USA in Iraq and Syria.
Forget the war technology porn regularly being broadcast by western media, with those spectacular photos of missiles erupting from ships into the night sky. Those missiles and bombs eviscerate and maim innocents as well as combatants, children as well as terrorists. The West always first denies, then regrets, “collateral damage”. The propaganda can be laughable. During the invasion of Iraq I remember a news propaganda item about how a cruise missile can enter a specific window, being followed by the next item – the US had apologised to Syria for two missiles aimed at Iraq which had hit Syria by accident.
If we can accidentally bomb the Chinese Embassy in Serbia, we can – and do – hit civilian homes near the proposed target. Being eviscerated by a piece of flying shrapnel is no less terrible than being beheaded by a jihadist. Let us not pretend that our violence is somehow nicer. Children will be dying under our bombs soon.
Other than the two extraordinary crazed Nigerians, there have been no recent Islamic motivated terrorist attacks in the UK and even a slowdown in the propaganda of phoney attacks. This was a threat to the major financial interests of the security industry, in both its governmental and private branches.
There can be no greater nonsense than the idea that the Caliphate poses a direct threat to the UK. This is even more crazy than the claim that Saddam Hussein posed a threat to the UK. But by seeking to join in the bombing campaign, and initiating a new round of fake “anti-terror” arrests in London, the British government is doing everything it possibly can do to try to provoke terrorist violence on British streets. The interests of the security state are therefore secured. I am longing for somebody to explain to me the precise mechanism by which our bombing Islamic countries helps prevent terrorist incidents in the UK. The way it can provoke such incidents seems to me too obvious to need stating. Indeed it says a great deal for the wisdom and tolerance of Britain’s Muslim communities that it has not provoked more. They could teach government a great deal about the good sense of not resorting to violence to gratify passions and earn short term acclaim.
I’ve just heard an MP on the radio. Not only is the second hostage, I expect, about to be executed when they vote to bomb IS… but he’s being used as an excuse to do it. So concerned for his life…
@Fred: Do you really think that?
If you look at the massive global resources that BT put together in the final weeks of the campaign, against the local radio network, I thought they showed admirable resistance against a darker side of tribalism… which I heard last night again on Newsnight: “We don’t want you to go, sniff, sniff…”.
I know the media are trying to make out that an SNP vote is a vote with the heart… as if that is a negative thing. Well, not everyone thinks that way… especially if “voting with the head” means following the bullshit.
The issues are complex, and historical, none of us should attempt to trivialise.
@Je: Can we believe any of it? Lots of innocent lives already gone, and it looks like countless more about to go. But it’s funny that a hostage pops up as a major media issue just before a major act of barbarism… like that poor care worker in Baghdad, just before the massacre in Fallujah.
OK. This time it’s different because the hostage is still alive, but I think the politicians won’t take much notice of inconvenient truths. I was wrong last year though!
“@Fred: Do you really think that?”
I know that, I’ve been watching you lot following each other round licking each others arseholes long enough. What did you think was the purpose of Craig’s maritime border bullshit?
Somebody who believes in a conspiracy theory may be an individual thinker but people who believe all of them are just more sheep and every one of the Nats here were singing from the exact same hymn sheet.
And you appear to be singing from the Communist International’s Hymns Ancient
and Modern, Fred. Though I think you’re a BritNat under the mask of unreasoning antinationalist hatred, really. Change the record, eh? You’re boring. What’s your opinion on ISIS?A Node and Ishmael. Thanks for your kind comments about the Alistair Starling photo. Took a look at yours too Ishmael. The old cameras brought back memories.
Please try and stay on topic and don’t be diverted by the likes of Habbabkuk and Dreoilin who would clearly like to make the issue about the Falklands. Incidentally I am not sorry I casually threw mention of the Falklands factor in Thatcher’s resurrection. Her boy Cameron is responsible for, or has a lot of knowledge about, the loss of nuclear weapons when they were removed from South Africa after Nelson Mandela came to power. Nuclear weapons were considered safe in the hands of apartheid South Africa (another product of our imperialist past) but not in the indigenous government’s hands. Where did they go? Israel I suspect. This thread however is about the UK going to war yet again without justification (yet again). If Dreoilin and Habbabkuk want to turn it into another debate I suggest they go elsewhere.
“And you appear to be singing from the Communist International’s Hymns Ancient and Modern, Fred. Though I think you’re a BritNat under the mask of unreasoning antinationalist hatred, really. Change the record, eh? You’re boring. What’s your opinion on ISIS?”
Oh look, it’s another member of the flock here to hurl abuse at those who don’t follow the leader.
People can do the right thing for right and wrong reasons. Labour (and other) MPs in England and Wales only have the opportunity to vote against bombing Iraq again because it is morally wrong. Labour MPs in Scotland have an additional (wrong) reason – to save their electoral skins.
How can we best ensure that the list of Labour, Conservative and LibDem MPs voting against their whips’ instructions becomes a key document for the 2015 General Election?
*inscribes Fred’s name, regretfully, in the register of trolls*
A colleague, who used to be a senior minister’s agent, has emailed me to say he cannot see there being a free vote today. His current MP is on the front bench and he doubts whether his representative will want to put future prospects in jeopardy. So we’re going to bomb them.
That’s what’s wrong with parliament. You think you’ve elected an MP who can vote freely and democratically (in this free and democratic society of ours) and he, or she, gets whipped into shape the minute a sworn allegiance to the Queen is made. It is not democracy, it is elected dictatorship.
A security consultant and former Mossad agent in the following video has an unfortunate slip of the tongue around the 2:10 mark as he mentions the 7/7 attack, oops.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4nmxJdddU
“*inscribes Fred’s name, regretfully, in the register of trolls*”
What is a troll?
Iain Orr, I shall be watching very closely how MPs vote today. I despair in the current climate that we can do anything to influence an electorate with no interest in world affairs. People on this blog (even those simply here to disrupt) are not like the multitudes content to watch the soaps and MSM. Such indoctrination is where they get their knowledge of what’s going on. Creepy, I know. Nothing can be done short of a revolution of the parliamentary system. And it ain’t gonna happen.
Now apparently it’s the free-thinkers who are sheep. Say the worshippers of malign power. They’re obviously hurting and paniced. Wonderful. Will it be today the collapse of the stock market and currency becomes impossible to hide?
@John: Well, if they are good men and women, if they follow the whips it’ll be on their consciences for the rest of their lives. As must be for same who voted for war after the 2003 Iraq war debate…
If they are “only” voting for airstrikes in support of the Iraqi government, and nothing else, then it’s not quite so bad.
Incidentally, if you look at the yougov poll, it is broken down by age and region. Not much difference at all in age or region, with one exception… Scotland (much higher for ruling out ground troops, at about 50%):
Full survey: http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/09/25/full-results-troops-iraq/
Already down 4% on airstrikes, from 57% in favour a couple of days ago. No wonder Cameron is hurrying them up…
World, I know your out there. Looks time to Boycott UK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
Craig, is it true that the first Air strikes are in fact going to be targets in Qatar? Apart from mission creep right out of the gate, my fear, if this story is true, that the west are being played by the Saudis – There has been a lot of tension between of late. Mostly for their support of the muslim brotherhood. I think we’re being used as a cosh on behalf of vested interests in Saudi Arabia – not as claimed, protecting “democracy” in Iraq.
artists against GCHQ?
http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/GCHQ/story-23003482-detail/story.html
(summary for those who don’t click links: signposts outside a secret UK base were today plastered with ‘stop bombing children‘ fake traffic signs; allegations are that it is an ‘artistic’ attack by a named artist who has some sort of Facebook page)
@James: Are they going for Al Jazeera again?
O/T, but sorta relevant…
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/content/theres-nothing-see-here-met-police-chief-ignores-nearly-50-questions-about-use-ripa-spy
See also –
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/media-law-qc-polices-use-ripa-obtain-confidential-journalistic-material-completely-illegal
Peacewisher, it would be on yours, or my conscience, but politics is all about keeping those in power in power, and the masses in their place. If that means bombing somebody in a far away country it has never bothered the UK before. I hope there are enough decent people to say no to this madness. But I have very strong doubts.
Fred
25 Sep, 2014 – 10:19 pm
“If you cut through someone’s jugulars the blood supply to the brain is stopped immediately, the heart stops beating a few beats later, there is not masses of blood. If someone cuts their wrist you get loads of blood as the brain remains supplied with oxygen and the heart keeps on beating.”
“I have slaughtered a number of animals and I know, lack of blood is not evidence of anything, it is to be expected.”
_________________________________
The one consistent thing about you Fred is your stupidity.
Firstly, the jugulars are veins that move de-oxygenated blood from the head back to the lungs.
You need to sever the carotid arteries in the neck to stop the blood supply to the brain.
Secondly Fred, if there is lack of blood, from the animals you have slaughtered, then you are doing it wrong and you will never be any good at making black puddings.
Just wondering, for the sake of human decency, just how many beheadings of journalists and rapes of eg Yazidi girls does it take before we should get involved?
“Well, if they are good men and women, if they follow the whips it’ll be on their consciences for the rest of their lives. As must be for same who voted for war after the 2003 Iraq war debate…”
But it isn’t 2003 now. It’s an easy philosophy to just say military action is always wrong, saves having to make judgements.
IS has made no secret of their intentions, it isn’t in any doubt like the WMD of Saddam were. they intend a caliphate in that area of Iraq and Syria. It will be a strict theocracy, there will be no place for the religious minorities who are occupiers now, the Christians, Kurds, Yazidi either convert, get out or be killed. That I believe constitutes ethnic cleansing, even genocide, under international law.
Can we turn our backs on the Christians, Kurds, Yazidi and other minorities of Iraq and Syria? If we do and they are massacred, who’s hands will their blood be on?
Goodwin
“Just wondering, for the sake of human decency, just how many beheadings of journalists and rapes of eg Yazidi girls does it take before we should get involved?”
Well if it’s beheadings that offend your decency then presumably you advocate attacking Saudi Arabia. If protecting girls from rape is your thing then surely you want to invade India.
“The one consistent thing about you Fred is your stupidity.”
Fuck off and die retard, you don’t know shit.
“I hope there are enough decent people to say no to this madness. But I have very strong doubts.”
I think people are decent, essentially. but like in Scotland they can be misinformed. Spin, Manipulation.
Seems to me it’s about spreading as much fear as possible to make it shut people off to any serous reflection..
In my view it’s a crime against humanity to do this to people. Myself being deeply disturbed by the Last Iraq propaganda wave. Why I don’t watch tv-bbc etc since then.
@Fred: we should support the countries concerned who wish to drive them out of their patch. That is the way to do it under International Law. Iraq is a basket case because it doesn’t seem to be able to resist. Who made it a basket case? Right, so here is a justification.
We could help Syria. They probably won’t need too much support because they have a pretty goo army anyway. But we don’t accept their leader as Sovereign, which is absurd, ridiculous, etc….. especially as he has just been reelected… and that is my problem.
Goodwin 26 Sep, 2014 – 1:11 pm
“Just wondering, for the sake of human decency, just how many beheadings of journalists and rapes of eg Yazidi girls does it take before we should get involved?”
Just wondering, for the sake of human decency, just how many murders of weapons inspectors and rapes of children does it take before a Muslim country should get involved in sorting out the UK?
On Thursday, while addressing the UNGA, Iranian president Sheikh Hassan Rouhani said that Western and Israeli secret agencies created the various terrorist groups with a single goal: “the destruction of civilization, giving rise to Islamophobia and creating a fertile ground for further intervention of foreign forces in our region”.
http://rehmat1.com/2014/09/26/rouhani-exposes-western-hypocrisy-at-un-general-assembly/