If bombing a country really made it better, we would have made a paradise of Iraq by now. Instead it is a total disaster, with access to electricity, drinking water, education and health services all far worse than they were before we started bombing it. That is even without the growth of the Caliphate, or ISIS, a direct result first of our deposing Saddam and conniving in the intolerant Shia rule of Maliki, and then of our connivance in arming and funding anyone willing to fight Assad.
So now we are told we have to bomb Iraq yet again, and this time, finally, that will make it all better. There are two extraordinary contradictions in the British position.
1) The justification in international law given by the neo-cons for the current bombing of Iraq is that it is at the invitation of the government of Iraq. But simultaneously they propose to bomb Syria to attack the government of Syria. This is the most astonishing hypocrisy.
2) The Caliphate forces were encouraged and trained by the CIA initially. They continue to be massively financed from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. In fact, the Caliphate is still funded to a massive degree from the very states who are currently bombing them alongside the United States – Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. It is the ruling families of those states which are attacking ISIS in an official capacity, who are financing ISIS in a private capacity. The BBC manages to avoid any mention of Saudi funding for ISIS. The interests of the City of London are, as always, the most important factor for the British establishment.
The security state here in the UK needs the “War on Terror” to justify its continued existence and the power and jobs of those who administer it. One thing that is certain to keep the conflict going, and thus keep the security state going, is for us to start bombing the Middle East again.
The right wing old crawler Menzies Campbell just came on the BBC to support British bombing. Stand by to see the Unionist parties united in neo-imperialist brotherhood.
Ishmael. That applies to you, too. We all know the State we’re in is pretty rotten. Repeating the fact helps nobody. We need people like you who understand to come up with ideas how to make things better, rather than complaining and complaining like the young soldier in Fred’s grandfather’s story.
@Gutter: It is a shock to realise the depths of fear-mongering of TV news reporting. The first time I detected this was in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. I watched the newsreaders closely, and wondered if they could possibly believe the absolute rubbish they were passing off to us as news.
@Ishmael: The good news today, compared to 2003, is that fewer people depend on the TV for their news.
@Fred: My point was that the “vote No” propaganda seemed to be very powerful, relentless in fact. That 45% of voters showed resistance to that propaganda is encouraging.
Ishmael… go on a few demonstrations. It is therapeutic, provided that the numbers are sizeable. At least Tony Blair is not Prime Minister.
Let’s not forget the sister act in Ukraine.
Dr Evil
…puppet show 2014
http://endthelie.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Oleksandr-Turchynov-and-John-Kerry.jpg
… visits Kiev toy shop, 2014
http://voicesevas.ru/img/edcccc08cc29a47bd252935ca3dd4ce4.jpg
… at The Hague (extended visiting time), circa 2020 http://media.photobucket.com/user/swite5300/media/swite_8.gif.html?filters%5Bterm%5D=dr%20evil&filters%5Bprimary%5D=images&filters%5Bsecondary%5D=videos&sort=1&o=16
“She was just doing he job”
Of a propagandist. The point I was making is that her argument was framed as if we have some right to go do what we want. I know he addressed it, but she will go back to this authoritarian frame of thinking as they always do. Always.
There is nothing normal about it, it’s an establishment pathology and is in part the reason for conditions that result in 9/11 or 7/7 etc etc etc.
The country has changed massively. Did we go along with Vietnam ect. ? We have swung so far, yet people don’t seem to see it. I guess this is what constant war does to a society. It’s just part of the landscape and we are always involved. Like normal?
The hundreds of other countries must be looking, god knows what they think. Ahh yes the British boot of democracy back again.
This is progress:
http://rt.com/news/190384-un-resolution-terrorism-mercenaries/
“In the wake of the rise of the Islamic State the UN Security Council has unanimously adopted a resolution demanding all member states to make it a serious criminal offense for their citizens to travel abroad to fight with extremists or support them.
The resolution targets fighters traveling to conflicts anywhere in the world.”
Unanimously passed…
Quote from Syrian rep, Bashar Ja’afari, who stressed that they have been fighting the jihadist threat for 3 years now and “were alone” in their efforts:
“We are doing that on behalf of the international community and nobody was listening to us. Until everybody woke up suddenly and said guys something is wrong in our calculations. We were right. And nobody could launch a genuine war against terrorism without Syria being aboard,”
Sofia; Your posts are like pure oxy. here’s a pastoral repast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LXl4y6D-QI
Sorry i’v just had so much of it. Coming back to my small town. I literally can’t talk to a lot of people, I have a few who remain ok, but the stuff some people come out with.
Got to get back to a city perhaps, I know towns are have this tendency anyway. But it’s getting much worse. I was talking to this older gent, a local who follows things and is or was involved with the local labour party, I think he has lived here all along. He says the same, old friends he just can’t identify with anymore. Coming out with all kinds of racist stuff.
He seemed like a really nice guy, it’s really very sad.
Ben,
Sublime sounds! A balm for the soul amidst all the horror.
“Some poeple wish to conform to the rules. I wish only to render what I hear. There is no theory. You have only to listen.” Claude Debussy
Goodnight all.
Gutter
I have come up with ideas, not just hear. But they never seem good enough, it seems people won’t do anything unless it’s guaranteed success or fits within current ‘possibilities’.
In a country full of pragmatism we won’t be seeing any real effort with no real belief something may help.
People would just rather sound off. Now you mention it, it’s not what I came here for, but many of my ideas (and I agree some have been out there, though i’v never been set in stone) are met with stone cold silence.
IMO most anything is possible. But new ideas and thoughts ‘won’t work’ for people who’s limitations are set within how it all ‘works’.
Yeah peacewisher, the US/UK aggression strategy is becoming clear.
1. Get a UNSC resolution that does not authorize force and mandates compliance with the foundational international legal imperative of refraining from use or threat of force.
2.Authorize it under Chapter VII, which governs threats to peace.
3. Ceaselessly yammer, CHAPTER 7! CHAPTER 7!! CHAPTER 7!!!
This strategy is aimed at domestic morons who have not read the resolution and have never read Chapter VII. TV spokesmodels stuff their face with the kindergarten notion, Chapter 7 means use of force. So it never occurs to US morons that Chapter 7 gives the UNSC authority over force – and other measures not involving use of force. That all Chapter VII means is, nobody moves a muscle without UNSC supervision.
http://www.ejiltalk.org/un-security-council-adopts-resolution-2178-on-foreign-terrorist-fighters/
And of course,
4. Blow shit up.
This is a refinement of the Afghanistan playbook, where they went to war yammering UN RESOLUTION! UN RESOLUTION! UN RESOLUTION! (a resolution which also halted resort to force pending explicit UNSC authorization.)
Prospective consequences mount: legal exposure for internationally wrongful acts and for serious crimes of concern to the international community. But the US government is hoping that as long as there’s enough instability and conflict, wartime solidarity will preserve their impunity. It’s Flucht nach vorne, and it works until it doesn’t.
http://stopwar.org.uk/events/protest-25-september-don-t-bomb-iraq-don-t-bomb-syria-downing-street-5-30pm
See you there, Ishmael !
🙂
http://veteransforpeace.org.uk/2014/another-casualty/
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/24/without_a_truce_in_syrian_civil
Thanks Gutter. ++
I’ve been cheered by The Guardian Australia’s comment section. For example (not mine): “We’re under greater threat from suffocation under ever mounting, astounding bullshit than from any terrorist.” This is one of many on similar lines.
Lots of people calling bullshit on Abbott and his nasty cronies. Doubt it’ll help the people of Syria and Iraq, mind. Lord they must hate The West.
Also, it’s like the entire Western media doesn’t know a) The Saudi’s fund ISIS, b) The Saudi’s are our allies. A collective ‘not knowing’ worthy of any dictatorship you care to mention. Weird.
Is this the iSralei Thread..You See..I did understand..on The Greek Island of Naxos..His wife had to keep apologisiing to me…My wife and I tried to make friends with her..and He Was Trying To Order The Owner of The Hotel to Go To The Island Opposite..like it is like 8pm..we all lokked at him as if he was mad..but gradually tried to bring him back to some normal level of sanity…poor sod he had just been shooting innocent palestinian kids dead cos they had a catapult and shot a stone at him..he open fired and killed the lot
He was CRYING
Tony
How can I explain this to you..”You have just shot 4 10 year old boys and two 10 year old girls dead” What can I say to you..they shot a catapult at you and you shot them dead..How can I even think of trying to rehabilitate you..Did you get over it in 2007 – and go back and do it again in 2014???
What should we do with you?
Tony
No Fkn wonder Some can’t sleep… Promises Promises…But we PROMISE you this…We aint in Wales Planning Peace….So vote for us with Love
Nice piece from Glen Greenwald –
….” That means that Syria becomes the 7th predominantly Muslim country bombed by 2009 Nobel Peace Laureate Barack Obama—after Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya and Iraq.
The utter lack of interest in what possible legal authority Obama has to bomb Syria is telling indeed: Empires bomb who they want, when they want, for whatever reason (indeed, recall that Obama bombed Libya even after Congress explicitly voted against authorization to use force, and very few people seemed to mind that abject act of lawlessness; constitutional constraints are not for warriors and emperors).*
Don’t quite agree on that clumping in all Warriors…at least some tried hard to live by Honor Codes –
From the Samurai Bushido Code No 8 –
VIII. Character and Self-Control
Bushido teaches that men should behave according to an absolute moral standard, one that transcends logic. What’s right is right, and what’s wrong is wrong. The difference between good and bad and between right and wrong are givens, not arguments subject to discussion or justification, and a man should know the difference. Finally, it is a man’s obligation to teach his children moral standards through the model of his own behavior: The first objective of samurai education was to build up Character. The subtler faculties of prudence, intelligence, and dialectics were less important. Intellectual superiority was esteemed, but a samurai was essentially a man of action. No historian would argue that Hideyoshi personified the Eight Virtues of Bushido throughout his life. Like many great men, deep faults paralleled his towering gifts. Yet by choosing compassion over confrontation, and benevolence over belligerence, he demonstrated ageless qualities of manliness. Today his lessons could not be more timely.
Yip…
The Greenwald Link –
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/23/nobel-peace-prize-fact-day-syria-7th-country-bombed-obama/
Options. Alternatives. Roads taken. Bombings. Missiles. Death from above. Predictable in its certainty. Yet, the root causes –the reasons why– are once more, again, ad-naseum, ignored, passed-by.
Absolutely, of course without doubt, barbarism has no place in this time now; but nation states who use beheading, stoning, firing squad as an expression of justice in Sharia Law, are supported by The West, notably Saudi Arabia. Aren’t we fighting against these very manifestations? The US President touched on these in his speech yesterday, that they need addressing, but, well, there they stay: In the past. Regressive. Conservative.
Further some, if not most of these nations, are arguably drenched, soaked-through with a patriarchal conservatism that must be brought to bear; as too any state which is organised round the mindset of only… Princes. kings. ‘Chosen’ men. The insincerity of this, this glaring mockery of The West’s ‘values’, exposes a hypocrisy that –along with further foreign policy– leaves no doubt in many minds in the Middle East and further afield: ‘They, –The West– are liars, deceitful and want us dead, controlled, enslaved. There is only one alternative. Fight.’
How can the pillars of our constructs be taken seriously as a way to the light –as a system that is worth working with, towards– when the great mass of people, –half and more of whom are not even eligible to vote, if at all, in absolute monarchies, even theocracies– are themselves denied Democracy’s Trappings due to The West’s support in the Middle East of those who deny it. It’s beyond satire.
Please see: http://www.freedomhouse.org
The Sunni extremists –in this instance– didn’t spring from the desert after a rare rain, but disenfranchised, radicalized, dehumanized, vilified, deceived and in all essence made mad need reason to step back, to take on the responsibilities of reasonable minded members of a global society. They are afforded none. The root causes of extremism still, after all this time, are left to smolder, spark and burst into flame. The periodic violence, as in Israel, is allowed to circle the lives of millions for no other reason than our lack of will.
It could be, it should be, it would be but…
And before we start spitting about the hypocrisy and failings of the man; yesterday President Obama gave a monumental speech. For a moment, a second of clarity, –unclouded by our own prejudices– let’s not be so ready to attack the vessel that delivers the words; if we care to listen to what was said, from the very first step of The Speech, when assessed, The Message, not the man, well, it has ideas, concepts and a destination to its purpose of value. Hope springs eternal.
Senate Torture Report Vanishes
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39770.htm
Excerpt
“The welcome distraction afforded by ISIS means that the issue of Gaza, which was recently devastated by the Israelis, has largely disappeared from the mainstream media, enabling Benjamin Netanyahu to steal still more land on the West Bank for new settlements. And remember MH-17? Still a whodunit and nobody cares anymore.
“Back here at home, the dispute over the Senate Intelligence Committee report on Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) torture, a hot button issue earlier this year, has also benefited, largely disappearing from sight. The meticulously researched Senate report, covering 6000 pages and including 35,000 footnotes, apparently concluded that torturing terrorist suspects was not only illegal under the United Nations Convention on Torture, to which Washington is a signatory, it was also ineffective, producing no intelligence that was otherwise unobtainable …”
Same old, same old … Bombs, missiles and diversions …
” My point was that the “vote No” propaganda seemed to be very powerful, relentless in fact. That 45% of voters showed resistance to that propaganda is encouraging. ”
You watched a different referendum to me. It was the Yes propaganda that was relentless and most of it based on lies designed to arouse racist and tribalist emotions.
Now we see the elitist nature if the Nats if they genuinely still believe they were right and that those who voted No did so because they were stupid. If they can’t see that people voted No because they like being British then nothing they can say about Syria can have any credibility.
btw the bombing of Syria began on 22 September; 21 September was UN International Day of Peace:
To mark the 30th anniversary of the General Assembly Declaration on the Right of Peoples to Peace, the theme of this year’s International Day of Peace is the “Right of Peoples to Peace”…
http://www.un.org/en/events/peaceday/
and the UN was meeting in NY at the same time, but has said nothing.
as for bombing Khorasan! presumably this tweet is from the NYT James Risen, who the US Justice Department is trying to compel to testify about the identity of a confidential source used for a chapter in his book, “State of War”:
James Risen: The Khorasan Group is kind of like the Kardashian Group. They became famous even though they’ve never done anything.
https://twitter.com/JamesRisen/status/514929699818967040
” Coming out with all kinds of racist stuff. ”
Like what you said about Irish girls?
Rita Katz, a Mossad agent, is behind the hyping of fake beheading videos to bomb Syria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNH35i38TTY
Everybody should write to their MPs to make sure that they do not obey the neocon whips.
@Fred: OK, I’m a watcher from the sidelines. However… the yes/no seemed to be about 35/65 through most of the campaign.
Maybe there was “Yes” propaganda, during this part of the campaign, maybe there wasn’t. It certainly wasn’t having much effect.
Then, “Better Together” started spouting forth. No question that was highly emotional propaganda, with lies weaved in so it seems. The result… “Yes” voters began to rise… 10% in all. If Scots bought the propaganda, you might have expected to opposite effect, for proportional of “Yes” voters to go down to 25%, not up to 45%.
Now do you see what I’m getting at?
Khorasan – something the Americans made up.
http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/asia/khorasan-group-isnt
@John: Amazing that this was broadcast on UK public radio. Not the BBC of course!
I remember the first UK protest against Assad… outside the Syrian Embassy. It was on the same day as the TUC demonstration – that’s why I was there. I took a wrong going from Victoria Station to Hyde Park, and ended up with a quite different group of protestors. About 100 of them… very noisy. That was March 2011. Just after the Tunisian and Egyptian rebellions had kicked off. I got to Hyde Park in the end, which was rather an anti-climax.
Pity this interview has only 11000 views so far.
“Now do you see what I’m getting at?”
No.