I have no sympathy at all for anybody who voted No on the grounds of the pledges by Brown, Miliband, Cameron and Clegg about constitutional change, and is now whingeing about the blatant dishonour of those pledges. I cannot understand how anybody could be so stupid as to have believed them, and yet have a brain capable of sparking respiration.
Labour is interested in losing no influence of Scottish Labour MPs on any UK or English matters. It wants greater powers to English metropolitan councils which are controlled by Labour – because that will give Labour careerists more jobs and access to contracts. Those are Labours “constitutional reform” goals. The Conservatives “constitutional reform” goals are to keep Scotland’s tax on oil revenues and tax on whisky coming to Westminster, while loading greater responsibilities but no more money on the Scottish parliament, and stopping Scottish MPs voting on English matters thus guaranteeing conservative apparatchiks continued jobs and access to contracts.
Both Tories and Labour want to keep the appalling corrupt and undemocratic House of Lords for its jobs for apparatchiks, access to contracts etc.
Nobody cares what the Lib Dems think anyway.
I ask again – what did you expect?
This is the collective wisdom of Andy Myles and myself, over an excellent mackerel breakfast at Nom De Plume.
‘Tim’ many councils are still Labour-controlled, in others there are mixed coalitions of the three unionist parties, to keep out the SNP who are in many places the largest party but not in power, there is little or no ideological difference between these three, Labour Tory and LibDem parties, they are at macro-level one party. Your assertion the SNP has extensive power in local government is false. Any reasoning you make from that falsehood is thus batshit crazy.
Then why aren#t they complaining
Mr Goss (re an open letter to Craig deploring Republicofscotland’s Holocaust-denying comments)
“I can find nothing on this thread Habbabkuk.”
______________________
That is because, John – as you know very well – the comments were made on a couple of previous threads which Craig commendably deleted subsequently for that reason.
What do you hope to achieve or prove with that kind of silly comment, John?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“..to my mind, be a better open letter is one calling for the removal of the blog commenter, who stole my identity on the previous thread. You would sign that I’m sure, wouldn’t you?”
____________________
Not sure about the “better”, John, but I’d have no problem with such an open letter.
Is this your Stalinist way of hinting I was responsible?
I do actually remember a couple of posts from you which surprised me with their reasonableness – I think you said something about not leaping to conclusions about referendum fraud. I might even have complimented you on them. Are these the posts where you were impersonated? If so, typical that you should complain precisely about someone making you out to be a reasonable person for once!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You’ll note, by the way, that I haven’t tried your silly trick of saying “”I can find nothing on this thread.”
Council Control vs Turnout and Yes vote
Council Control turnout yes
East Dunbartonshire Labour 91 38.8
East Renfrewshire Labour 90.5 36.8
Stirling SNP 90.1 40.2
Falkirk Labour 88.7 46.5
Clackmannanshire SNP 88.6 46.2
Argyll and Bute Indie 88.2 41.5
West Dunbartonshire Labour 87.9 54
East Lothian Labour 87.6 38.3
Dumfries and Galloway Labour 87.5 34.3
Inverclyde Labour 87.4 49.9
Scottish Borders Tory 87.4 33.4
Renfrewshire Labour 87.3 47.2
Aberdeenshire SNP 87.2 39.6
Highland Indie 87 47.1
Perth and Kinross SNP 86.9 39.8
Midlothian Labour 86.8 43.7
West Lothian Labour 86.2 44.8
Na h-Eileanan Siar Indie 86.2 46.6
South Ayrshire Tory 86.1 42.1
Angus SNP 85.8 43.7
Moray SNP 85.4 42.4
South Lanarkshire Labour 85.4 45.3
East Ayrshire SNP 84.5 47.2
North Ayrshire SNP 84.4 49
City of Edinburgh Labour 84.4 38.9
North Lanarkshire Labour 84.4 51.1
Shetland Indie 84.4 36.3
Fife Labour 84.1 45
Orkney Indie 83.7 32.8
Aberdeen City Labour 81.7 41.4
Dundee City SNP 78.8 57.3
Glasgow City Labour 75 53.5
Higher turnout in Labour controlled councils
Higher NO vote in higher turnout councils
“If Scots MP’s can’t vote on English only matters in parliament, was it fair that Fred and other English folk voted in the Scottish referendum?
“If English born votes had been discounted, Scotland would now be independent.”
Presumably all the Scots-born people in England- indeed, around the world- should have been allowed to vote, then.
21 September 2014
Scottish referendum: Alex Salmond says ‘No’ voters were ‘tricked’
Salmond “surprised by the speed” at which Westminster party leaders are “reneging” on their promises
Scotland Decides
Former SNP leader backs Sturgeon
Referendum reaction
What now for the key players?
Police probe George Square disorder
Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has said “No” voters in last week’s independence referendum were “tricked” by a late vow of more devolved powers.
He accused the three main party leaders of “reneging” on the pledge they made days before Thursday’s referendum which he claimed won the “No” vote.
Voters in Scotland rejected independence by 55% to 45%.
No 10 dismissed his claims, as the three parties continue to disagree over handling the process of devolution.
It comes as about 1,000 people, including politicians from across the divide, prepare to attend a service of reconciliation at St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh.
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29296282
“If English born votes had been discounted, Scotland would now be independent.”
That’s not true. The number of English in Scotland is about the same as the difference between the yes and no votes. You’d have to assume that they had a near 100% turnout and they all voted No. Polls said about two thirds were no voters, a third for yes.
I’m glad that people can’t point the figure at English residents… except despite the evidence some of them will anyway it seems…
Alex Salmond says ‘No’ voters were ‘tricked’. They can speak for themselves can’t they. They already decided Salmond didn’t speak for them. Salmond should accept the result. It wasn’t a ‘trick’. He lost.
Control Population Turnout Yes No
Indie 321,734 87% 44% 56%
Labour 2,831,556 84% 45% 55%
SNP 935,989 85% 45% 55%
Tory 190,321 87% 38% 62%
Total 4,279,601 85% 45% 55%
“Presumably all the Scots-born people in England- indeed, around the world- should have been allowed to vote, then.”
A country is a geographical area, it is defined by lines on a map.
There have been people who believed a country was defined genetically, they were Nationalists as well.
There was only ever about one poll that put yes in the lead – and caused a panic. All the other polls for the past year were a no. That’s before the 3 noddies came forward to make their totally vague promises. Given the margin and the consistency in which it had been a no all the way through the campaign – its a bit fanciful to think there was really a yes majority that was changed to no by what they said at the last minute.
There wasn’t the appetite in Scotland for independence at this time. That’s the top and bottom of it. No-one to blame. No trick.
So, 55% of Scots dont want independence? Although I had been hopeful of a breakthrough, I cant say i”m surprised.
Scots have always had a strange attitude towards their own place of birth and i’m not going to try and analyse their behaviour, suffice to say I believe it is unique, having visited many countries throughout the world. No other country would denigrate their own peoples, nor harbour so many quislings, as the Scots appear to do.
I’m one of the 45% and, like most, believe we are not going anywhere, being shackled to the union corpse.
Heres how I see the only way forward:
The SNP foundation should be built upon, and banish all talk of founding alternate parties, that plays straight into the divide and rule ploys of the unionists.
Get a majority of SNP members into the house of commons in 2015, by which time I suspect “scottish” labour will be dead and buried.
The SNP should then declare the referendum result null and void, on the grounds that the unionist last minute promises were never met.
They should then force a rerun of the referendum, by which time we can hopefully squeeze another 5% to win.
If the unionists think we Scots will be another pushover, as they have in the past, then they will have to think again!
“…if at first you don’t secede, try, try again.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/scotland-s-decision-1.1935299?page=2
Nigel
Yes, certainly you make a good case. If there was election fraud and if there is dissatisfaction among moderate NO voters about broken promises then a landslide for the SNP in May 2015 would expose the shenanigans that led to this unlikely result and perhaps that’s what Salmond and co. have up their sleeves, since they’re never going to take this lying down. This would also explain Salmond’s resignation as the party regroups for the next battle.
Chris – on your first post, yes but Glasgow (Labour) had the lowest overall turnout and voted yes. The authorities are not of equal size, Glasgow has more than 10% of the overall population. One per cent of the Glasgow vote in numerical terms is more than 10% of Clackmannanshire.
On the second it seems that SNP controlled areas were no more likely to vote yes than Labour ones.
Maybe we could have a Live Aid concert for ya
21 Sep, 2014 – 12:32 am
Some good points there Maybe…
“A Europe driven by self-determination of peoples … is ungovernable because you’d have dozens of entities but areas of policy for which you need unanimity or a very large majority.”
————————————————————
That’s called democracy Mr De Gucht.
When he says “ungovernable” he means out of corporate elite control.
The EU has a massive democratic deficit that urgently needs to be set right.
————————————————————
“If it had happened in Scotland, I think it would have been a political landslide on the scale of the break-up of the Soviet Union,” said De Gucht, a Belgian liberal who does not support demands from some of his fellow Flemings for their own state.”
————————————————————
The break-up of the Soviet Union? Didn’t the West think that was wonderful for freedom and democracy?
What does Mr De Gucht think about the UK referendum on Europe I wonder?
After all we can’t have people deciding their own destiny, that’s for the EU elites to determine.
What frightens Mr Gucht and his ilk, is democracy fucking up the plans of the neo-liberal free market corporations that ride roughshod over (weak) democratic controls.
TTIP being the most recent, anti-democratic and dangerous, neo-liberal endeavour.
Tim, re: Glasgow. It is a strange one. There is no relationship / pattern between size of council and turnout, indeed 6 out of the 7 largest councils get over 84%, then the turnout plummets to 75% in Glasgow.
The interesting part of the second table is in response to the point made @ 9:12 to control of the machinery. It shows SNP control extend to barely 20% of the vote, and historically a lot of that control is new, they are not embedded into the system with generation after generation holding the reins of power.
Nigel,
Good points, but I would go further and say the leaders of free Scotland should start acting like an independent state, lay the foundations for an independent Scottish broadcasting authority, an independent media industry, send deputations to the UN, the EU, OSCE, anyone who will listen, etc. etc…
Mocuhyn69, a good place to start would be legal action to reclaim the Argyll oil wells and the parts of the north sea that blue labour stole for england ahead of devolution.
“What did you expect?… over an excellent mackerel breakfast”
I expected a full English!!!
“Mocuhyn69, a good place to start would be legal action to reclaim the Argyll oil wells and the parts of the north sea that blue labour stole for england ahead of devolution.”
It’s worse than that, they’re trying to steal Shetland. Just look at this map from the BBC web site.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77695000/gif/_77695435_scot_strength_624map.gif
They’re moving it down to England so they can keep all the oil, we should insist they put it back right away.
Jack Straw putting forward a proposal, albeit opinion, that now No has won the referendum, there should be no more Scottish independence referendums ever again, straw wants the same format as say India and the USA, that secession should be illegal.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/number-1-in-a-long-series/comment-page-1/#comment-1895047
The BBC has shot itself in both feet while simultaneously having both feet in the mouth. 1.6 million people is a very healthy potential audience.
Yes indeed. An independent (small i) media presence is urgently required. I imagine this would be best based in the Yes heartlands, Glasgow or Dundee, where (a) there are plenty of creatives, (b) there’s a good support base, and (c) it isn’t Imperial Embra. It would be wise not to be exclusively nationalist, though. A much wider audience would be interested in issues like inequality and political corruption UK (and indeed world) -wide, but might be put off by a surfeit of bravehearting, proclaiming and suchlike in the entertainment schedule. The opportunity for Scottish creatives to participate in this is so great I’m surprised they haven’t done it already.
There’s an obvious question here
Answer: crowdfunding.
straw wants the same format as say India and the USA, that secession should be illegal.
Of course he does, the dear little man. Now there’s someone who really knows about ballot-rigging. Let’s see if he’s passed on his knowledge:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/09/will-straw-selected-labour-candidate-rossendale-and-darwen-2015
An election to watch. Very, very carefully.
Hmm, not such a bad idea that Ba’al.
How would a Saltire FM that has some good tunes go down?, that has the ability to rove around the community/Scotland in a transmission van, having life broadcasts from here there and anywhere?
and most importantly, which evolves from the debate about Independence to what can/will/should be done in future.
I absolutely agree with Ruth, postal votes are the crux and there should be moves to allow voting at home instead, on the day, as its done in Ireland, not in advance.
If you are on holiday and want to vote, you should be able to appoint a proxy voter for you, but voting should be done on the day and the agents collecting the postal votes from homes, would have a numbered amount of collections only and deliver them directly to a count.
The postal voting form could have a different colour to those ballots that are filled in on the day.
What happens now? Apparently a majority of those under 55, according to Alex Salmond, voted Yes, but were outvoted by the still breathing older voters who believed the promises from Westminster.
Independence was a way of solving “the West Lothian question”. Scottish Independence could have revitalized English democracy. Is England even a country? It does not seem to have a folk imagination. The next big occasion will be the proposed EU membership referendum. What is the position of the SNP?
I’d envisage beginning on the internet, actually, Flower. Much cheaper and infinitely more accessible country-wide. While it would still cost initially, revenue would be necessary in the medium term to keep it running; so it would start as a loss leader – many startups accept this necessity, but would be infinitely adaptable as to how it eventually paid for itself.
Would £1 each from the 1.6M Yes voters seem excessive?
@Ba’al Zevul
21 Sep, 2014 – 2:19 pm
So who’s going to get the ball rolling? Get some of the Lawyers for Yes to set up a Scottish company limited by guarantee, invite contributions to the new iSBC in lieu of the annual tribute to the Beeb, start hiring some of the brightest and best talent, commission programmes, bid for broadcasting rights etc. etc.
Let’s show ’em .. independence works!
Yes indeed. An independent (small i) media presence is urgently required. I imagine this would be best based in the Yes heartlands, Glasgow or Dundee, where (a) there are plenty of creatives, (b) there’s a good support base, and (c) it isn’t Imperial Embra. It would be wise not to be exclusively nationalist, though. A much wider audience would be interested in issues like inequality and political corruption UK (and indeed world) -wide, but might be put off by a surfeit of bravehearting, proclaiming and suchlike in the entertainment schedule. The opportunity for Scottish creatives to participate in this is so great I’m surprised they haven’t done it already.
——————————
Yeah I’ve got to agree with you on this point, its been well touted on Wings,some form of media presence is undoubtedly required, to discuss political events, a station with a less state broadcaster attitude,a voice of the people if you like.
“Of course he does, the dear little man. Now there’s someone who really knows about ballot-rigging. Let’s see if he’s passed on his knowledge:”
dear little man? shirley you have not forgotten the neat little torturing and abuse of human rights that went on during his reign….;) and that of his follow on ruminant David Milliped.
“An election to watch. Very, very carefully.”
Thats a problem, because even when asked nicely and shown/reported some discrepancies, this little shit managed to divert the Midlands based electoral commission requests that I put to them.
Thje el;ectoral commission is unable to deal with the multiple fraud that is carried out, and thats a fact the party politicians are riding on, thats why they sucker the status quo and only grudgingly allowed us to dare and make a cross behind their choice of worst possible electoral system, AVplus.
Anything that threatens their little games will be attacked, ridiculed and with the use of their mouthpiece media/BBC, demonised and popooed.
Anything to keep in power.
I’m sure some troll here will soon proof me right.