I spoke to a really uplifting Perth for Independence meeting yesterday – over 300 people, more than attended Cameron’s “Rally to Save the Union” in the same city during the campaign. There is no sense of defeat at all in the Yes campaign and it retains its spine-tingling energy intact.
Many interesting contributions including – a continuing feature of this campaign – several first time speakers, and more female than male. In my own talk I said that anyone who voted No because they believed “The Vow” was stupid beyond belief. Scotland will never be given by Westminster its revenues from oil and whisky, and any devolution settlement based on Scotland keeping and spending its own taxation but excluding taxation from oil and whisky, would undoubtedly be arranged by Westminster to result in a net cut in public spending in Scotland.
I have in any case not the slightest interest in any arrangement which does not give Scotland control of its own foreign and defence policies, and leaves us still as participants in continual aggressive war, torture and extraordinary rendition.
It remains my view that Scotland’s innate dislike of the astonishing wealth gap of British society, the rise of UKIP and the shift to the right of the Westminster parties, the danger of leaving the EU and European Convention on Human Rights (and thus expulsion from the Council of Europe), all contribute to a political, cultural and social divergence which make independence inevitable. It is coming in a much shorter timescale than people realise.
Well said.
Your correct- any taxationpowers given will be manipulated to give Scots less than the pocket money presently received via the block grant.
Plus ca change………
I don’t think that there is “a political, cultural and social divergence which make independence inevitable”. What you are describing is the view from the top of the roof, as the waters rise inexorable around the house. The English and Welsh, no less than the Scots, are at the mercy of a globally-empowered force which is sweeping away the foundations and structures of all we believe in. You are right to point it out, right to fight it and right to shout abuse at those who are doing it, but there is no good reason to include the other victims in your fury. We’re part of the same struggle as you are!
SAL The GAL
You are asking me to keep the lifeboat tethered to the Titanic to try and keep it up.
@Sal The Gal.
It is for the people of England, Wales and Ireland to rise up. Scotland can’t make them stop voting Tory or UKIP.
Nice analogy. Maybe Scotland could offer the rest a bigger lifeboat post indepence, a federalist Greater Union of Britain (GUB) that english, irish and welsh regions could join after seceding from the the old emporer. Not a new union of unequalts but a roadmap and helping hand to freedom
Great. Nice to think this won’t be put to bed.
In the mean time I was looking at left Unity. Grrr. Anyone want to help create a political party not based in the old traditions of ‘socialism’, ‘leftism’, ‘feminism’? I think that’s what’s needed.
Not that these things don’t have aspects of social justice that need to be addresses. But why not just call it social justice. I just don’t think many normal people are going to identify with or be interested in this Marxist stuff.
Also I think it’s wrong to bring on board social justice institutions / movements that are corrupt just because it gains support.
The left Unity conference was good, but that’s what it made me think. To get a popular party people do need to move past rhetoric and ideas that have (and do) always alienate most people. Left Unity is already sowing the seeds of it’s decline.
This is why UKIP did so well. Their ideas may be vacuous, but the language is easy.
I’v not heard anyone talking about Left Unity on this blog so far, I assume you have. I’d be intrested to hear what others think about it.
Ps Mary, Thanks for the petition, signed. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/63195
“It is coming in a much shorter timescale than people realise. ”
Great to hear that the mood has not been conflated by the mongers who already are watering down the promises they made, to non existent.
I would have thought in times of hardship in the EU, they pull together and help each other, not curl into a ball like a hedgehog spiking everyone who dares to come near.
Sal the Gal, the only path to choose is togetherness, beyond the party political, how else could one as a sole individual oppose this might and rigmarole of the gatekeepers that cling to the status quo like a limpid to a rock?
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A little story from Norwich that did not make the news. It is a university city and there are a few thousand students enriching the locals pockets, especially the landlords who charge the market rate for their cubbyholes.
A man from Sierra Leone was refused housing by two landlords on the grounds that he might have ebola,
Now that is pure racialism and has got nothing to do with a disease which thrives as much on paranoia as on bodies.
Ebola can be treated and if it is instantly recognised and pounced upon by a states health services, you can keep outbreaks to a minimum, get control fast. The UN health authority, much better equipped and funded, dithered, like with so many other dithering, it has consequences.
Thanks Mary, signed, 1693 its moving slow and the left unity, a name term that is diametrically opposed to the chasm’s that run through the left.
There is no unity and the advances made by the red-green movement are very small.
If anything should be at the heart of a new party it should be a long term sustainable outlook, If we don’t organise life to have something left to live for so our bairns can live sustainably as well, what are we really doing?
please add ‘,have not signed yet’ to the end of my first sentence.
The continuing momentum for SNP is reflected in the Scottish component of the last night’s yougov poll result: 46% SNP/Green v 53% lablibcon.
I’m glad to hear it and hope that you’re correct.Brilliant that you’re walking the walk Craig
For a very good dissection of the VOW and how ridiculous it has all become ,read ” the man with no plan” in Wings over Scotland.This is where Wings are so good.They take the microscope out with Occams Razor and lo and behold lies,folly and subterfuge are exposed.
Scottish Labour are finally realising that in their fury and hate of the SNP for unseating them,they’ve forgotte what and who they represent.Again Wings today highlights the turn out for “No” and the turn out to campaign for a living wage for workers.Gravy train V Social justice.
The Ex 1st Minister Mcconnell has said that although Salmond was a bit right of centre,that his successor Sturgeon is very much left of centre and Scottish Labour need to watch out.
I am confident too that we’ll get independence , but first we need independent TV stations north of the border.The censorship by ommission has become untolerable.
I wonder if it was clearer from south of the border that the Yes Campaign was not only about Scottish taxation and governance, but also about liberation from a corrupt, lying, life-poisoning establishment? As such, it had a huge amount of support among non-Scots and we, too, were demoralised and betrayed by the No Vote. Scotland had the best grounds and the best hope of breaking free of Westminster and its tentacles, and then of leading others through the passes. I don’t think the English and Welsh have much right to ask the Yes Campaigners to do anything more. They did their best and they did well. On the other hand, the same people are still in charge so the fight goes on…
“left unity, a name term that is diametrically opposed to the chasm’s that run through the left.”
Agree, Seems to me ‘left’ truly embodys movements, and should not be a unified party perhaps. There should be tensions. Though IMO some did a lot they are practically useless now. And the idea of left in power is a bit, dunno, whatever.
So why not a party that doesn’t try and piggyback of these movements?
Seems as soon as your is these traditions your in a hole. I see no legs in the established political way of doing things. It’s my feeling people don’t want to ‘engage’ in that way. I don’t blame them.
I’v no problem with a party helping ‘left’ causes. But I do have a problem with one explicitly identity’s with some social justice causes and not others. Or ones that are in a state of Rigor mortis, just things people don’t think about let alone really idenitfy with. It’s political suicide..
Seems as soon as your in* these traditions your in a hole
“I said that anyone who voted No because they believed “The Vow” was stupid beyond belief. Scotland will never be given by Westminster its revenues from oil and whisky..”
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I espy a straw man.
Was there anything in “The Vow” which could reasonably have led people to believe that letting Scotland keep all oil and whisky revenues was being offered/promised?
If so, could someone produce the exact words?
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“I have in any case not the slightest interest in any arrangement which does not give Scotland control of its own foreign and defence policies, and leaves us still as participants in continual aggressive war, torture and extraordinary rendition.”
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Since you know that that is not – and cannot be – on offer, you are rejecting any greater devolution for Scotland and demonstrating that you are not inclined to accept the outcome of the referendum.
It would appear that Mr Salmond is a better democrat than you.
One of the good things about the UK is that the wealth of the State is distributed [by and large] equally between its many constituent parts,in particular many areas of deprivation are funded by the more prosperous ones, now I know this does not always happen in practice, because money tends to stick in the more prosperous places, London for instance, never the less its possible that the North East or Scotland [if oil had never been discovered there]or Wales could negatively impinge financially on the home counties or other prosperous areas of the UK, but equally the roles could well be reversed. Its possible for instance that Wales could be a basket case outside the UK [only possible mind] so that intervention by the rest of the UK to even things up would be the right thing to do. If a huge gold mine was discovered in Wales next week, would it be right for them to say this new gold wealth will not subsidize any poorer areas of the UK? When Craig an intelligent man, whose heart is mostly in the right place is reduced to counting the number of Saltires versus Union flags in a field or on a TV screen he has been very badly bitten by the Nationalist bug.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29672049
” political , social and cultural divergence ” ??
The streets of London , Glasgow and Belfast were thronged by thousands yesterday who had more in common politically , socially and even perhaps even culturally than anything that divides them .
Which part of the word ‘inevitable’ can possibly be dissected?, why should wiski and oil in an Independent republic of(or not) Scotland not solely belong to a future Scottish treasury?
you are barking at a twig again, Habby
“I have in any case not the slightest interest in any arrangement which does not give Scotland control of its own foreign and defence policies, and leaves us still as participants in continual aggressive war, torture and extraordinary rendition.”
Well said. We need the same in this country and Left Unity, following on from the huge grass-roots successes of Podemos (Spain) who have filled a football stadium with supporters, and Syriza (Greece) which both show there is an alternative to banking dictatorship and that austerity need not be the way.
Unfortunately, Ishmael, who often makes sensible comments, has taken up the media broadbrush and rather than going along to find out what Left Unity is trying to do daubs a great palette full of Matisse-thick red paint across Left Unity’s face calling it Marxist, in the manner good individuals have been vilified by the capitalist media in the past, almost as though Karl Marx made no contribution to the economic and political thinktank. I am thinking of people like Arthur Scargill (who tried to save the mining industry) and Derek Robinson (who tried to save British Leyland for the Birmingham workers) both turned into pariahs by the presstitutes.
Left Unity is working hard to unite the left and can do well without anybody trying to drive a wedge in to divide and rule. I feel strongly about this Ishmael and may not have been so critical on another day, and just let the comment ride as I do with many of Habbabkuk’s comments. However Marxist is not a bad word. The media (owned by who?) have turned it into a bad word. Phrases like “reds under the beds”, “walls have ears” and “ISIS” are buzz-phrases aimed at mass-control through fear. If you want to tell me why Marx was wrong when he said that capitalism would aggressively become more corporate and eventually destroy itself I should be happy to consider it. Left Unity is not Marxist by name, though I don’t doubt there are Marxists in Left Unity, and they are welcome, but I see it more like the very early days of the Labour Party, Keir Hardie’s days.
“I would have thought in times of hardship in the EU, they pull together and help each other”
Like Greece you mean?
explicitly identifies*
Sry.
Anyway the speakers from Europe hit the nail on the head in my view. We need another language.
It’s not about trying to disengage as one person in the conference implied, on the contrary, IMO that’s why politicians keep there own language, so they don’t have to.
Let’s keep real people at arms length and label our order. Left right etc. And if you don’t get into this stuff your not worthy somehow. It’s all part of justifying what is still an elitist attitude. It works to keep people at bay. Intentionally or not.
“Ishmael, who often makes sensible comments, has taken up the media broadbrush and rather than going along to find out what Left Unity is trying to do”
No. I went to the website because I was considering joining, read through some stuff, found out a fair bit on what it’s about and doing (though there is not even an open forum to discuss finer points) and found it wanting.
I did want to join, before actually looking closely and considering. Before reading what members post, then allow others to discuss below. etc
Ps, You can still address me directly john, if you like.
Ishmael, I don’t know whether you can make your comment on this thread. As a member I probably can. If you can let me know please.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/left_unity_a_report_from_the_founding_conference
Nevermind
“Which part of the word ‘inevitable’ can possibly be dissected?, why should wiski and oil in an Independent republic of(or not) Scotland not solely belong to a future Scottish treasury?
you are barking at a twig again, Habby”
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And you, Ingo, are demonstrating again that you find it difficult to understand other people’s posts.
The question was :
“Was there anything in “The Vow” which could reasonably have led people to believe that letting Scotland keep all oil and whisky revenues was being offered/promised?
If so, could someone produce the exact words?”
Instead of remaining silent or saying you don’t know, you reply to that question of fact by asking your own question.
I’ll do you the courtesy of answering it; the answer is “for the same reasons that the vast sums of tax revenue of all kinds produced by the Greater London area should not belong exclusively to Londoners or even exclusively to England”.
Now please answer mine, if you can.
@Haddock.
Brown was on TV in Scotland offering federalism and Home Rule. Darling was interviewed on TV agreeing with the presenter Bird that Devomax was on offer.
Most folk in Scotland agree that Home Rule / Devomax is everything bar foreign affairs and defence.
Living under a bridge in Israel, you probably don’t get BBC Scotland as part of your cable package.
I would love someone to start something I could get behind. Please. But I just don’t see it. I’m really not that fussy, except it being effective.
I’m not saying left unity will do no good, they may be good alternative ways of linking or supporting groups. But it’s not a party.
I don’t know, maybe we don’t want a real alternative, or believe that a proper party can be no other. I think it can. But ‘left’ is not broad appeal. Again, it speaks to a minority really. And i’d say a part that makes it harder for most people.
To me it removes you from things that are actually common to us all. Seeing through this lens. Surly it only confuses issues?
That’s what that girl was really saying imo, that maybe people who don’t get on with ‘left’ and ‘right’ don’t what to engage with how WE think of ourselves, the minority who do. How undemocratic is that ?
Mr Goss
“Well said. We need the same in this country and Left Unity, following on from the huge grass-roots successes of Podemos (Spain) who have filled a football stadium with supporters, and Syriza (Greece) which both show there is an alternative to banking dictatorship and that austerity need not be the way.”
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Well, I know nothing about Podemos and so can’t comment meaningfully, except perhaps to say that football teams also regularly fill football stadiums with supporters; filling “a stadium” with supporters does not therefore seem to offer much insight into Podemos and its chances.
But what you say about Syriza showing that there is “an alternative to banking dictatorship and that austerity need not be the way” is pure nonsense.
Syriza has “shown” nothing, since it does not form the govt of Greece. All it has “shown” is a lot of talk. There are many, both inside and outside Greece, who are convinced that Syriza’s promises are not realisable. Now, it is true that its support amoung Greeks is high, but that also proves nothing; support for the Greek junta was also high (for a few years), as was support for PASOK (now almost wiped out as a party).
Do not believe either that Syriza is somehow a party of “non-politicians”; its leadership consists almost entirely of politicians who cut their teeth with PASOK and a couple of other small parties.
I don’t suggest that this post of yours, Mr Goss, is another of your “indigenous inhabitants of the Falklands” moments, but I would suggest that you avoid lazily repeating clichés when trying to comment on serious matters.
Ps sry missed that comment John. Thanks for the link.
But I don’t want to comment. As I said i’v looked at it enough. I’m glad it’s about.
But imagine i’m a voter. I don’t want to be given the opportunity to maybe comment after reading long articls embodying the history of left movements, or whatever.
Personally I got into it for a time. But this isn’t politics. I know they call it that.