A stark example of the entire purpose of modern politics; careers for the political class. Lib Dems may agree to a referendum on EU membership because it “reflects the thinking of English Lib Dem MPs in seats where they face Eurosceptic pressure”. That is, nothing to do with their beliefs, just trying to save their jobs. Exactly like the Westminster Labour establishment in Scotland.
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Fred;“But nothing like as bad as in America”
Rather a deflecting point, you might as well state that Mount McKinley is higher than Ben Nevis, quite true but actually superfluous to Ben’s attempt to debate about improving systems of government generally; and are you really saying that “Revolving Door” factor here in the UK is not a very serious problem, not a noxious corrupter of our democracy ?
Fred; “where when a government changes the old politicians not only move into industry but the new ones move in from industry then when the government changes again they all swap back again. that is where the “revolving door” analogy comes from”
That may, or may not, be the origin of the term, but in common accepted usage it now simply means “the hiring of former government employees by private companies with which they had dealings when they worked for the government”;
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revolving+door
But nothing like as bad as in America where when a government changes the old politicians not only move into industry but the new ones move in from industry then when the government changes again they all swap back again. that is where the “revolving door” analogy comes from.
I don’t see that the rotation makes it any less venal in the UK. If our sellouts don’t return to government, it’s because they’re doing very nicely where they are, thank you. And the ones in the Lords are doing both jobs at the same time.
http://www.caat.org.uk/issues/influence/revolving-door.php
In which:
Geoff Hoon
Old job: Defence Secretary, who awarded AgustaWestland a billion pound contract without competition. In 2010 he was suspended from the Labour party after being recorded by Channel 4 saying he wanted to use his knowledge and contacts to make money – £3,000 a day.
New job: senior V-P of international business, AgustaWestland
Sources: Financial Times, 16 May 2011, and Times, 25 March 2005
(for instance)
See also:
Lt General Richard Applegate
Old job: MoD Chief of Materiel (Land) Defence Equip. & Support
New job: Chairman, Elbit Systems UK
Sources: helihub.com, 13.5.2011 and Linkedin.com
(ibid)
Further reading on that –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbit_Systems
Even a Hackney councillor is in there swilling –
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/david/arms-industry-promoter-latest-recruit-uk-israel-lobby
No wonder we support Israel, eh?
Meanwhile, Nick Clegg Commits Suicide.
Paywall, but who needs to read further?…
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5978377/Nick-Clegg-claims-hes-the-new-Tony-Blair.html
Recruiting for Nick Clegg Associates will be an unenviable task.
Talking of politicians and the arms industry, this seems to be big in S. Africa –
http://www.tarnews.co.za/an-arms-deal-critic-has-said-that-tony-blair-should-have-been-summoned-to-testify-at-the-seriti-commission/
http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2014/10/07/arms-deal-toys-rotting-crawford-browne
“South Africa acquired three submarines that spend most of the time on the ‘hard’ at Simon’s Town and 50 BAE Hawk and BAE/Saab Gripen fighter aircraft for which the country had almost no pilots to fly them, mechanics to maintain them, or even the money to fuel them.
“The arms deal was a confidence trick played at huge socio-economic cost to the people of South Africa, which has seriously undermined our still-fragile constitutional democracy,”
“I don’t see that the rotation makes it any less venal in the UK. If our sellouts don’t return to government, it’s because they’re doing very nicely where they are, thank you. And the ones in the Lords are doing both jobs at the same time.”
So are you saying we have a worse problem here in the UK than they do in America?
So are you saying we have a worse problem here in the UK than they do in America?
If you’ll take another look at what I did say, you’ll see that I didn’t.
I don’t regard it as a pissing contest. This kind of ‘nudge, nudge’ corruption is endemic in both countries, and has been for a long time. But it’s on the increase, spectacularly. To the point where it is now pretty well inevitable that a politician in possession of contacts and influence gathered at public expense on behalf of his country (allegedly) will bugger off and sell them to the highest bidder, absolutely regardless of his country’s interests.
“To the point where it is now pretty well inevitable that a politician in possession of contacts and influence gathered at public expense on behalf of his country (allegedly) will bugger off and sell them to the highest bidder, absolutely regardless of his country’s interests.”
Like ex-policemen becoming private detectives, ex soldiers becoming security consultants, ex diplomats becoming authors. When an executive leaves one company don’t they then sell their knowledge and experience to the next company they work for.
We need some safeguards and have some, such as the official secrets act but up to a certain level I don’t see what can be done about it, you can’t ban ex ministers from getting a job, you can’t make someone’s knowledge and experience property of the government. Nobody likes it but like a lot of things nothing can be done about it without infringing on civil liberties except where you can show laws have been broken.
Fair point, Fred, nothing wrong with a career path. OTOH, your ordinary ex-servicemen leaving for jobs in industry DO have to observe the OSA. And have to have some relevant skills. And, incidentally, apply for the job. Also, it’s a two-way process. Not only does the trougher get rich, often on a sinecure basis, but as a condition of his getting rich, he is certainly (if, *wink*, deniably) expected to influence his sx-colleagues and chums to move government policy in the correct direction. That is in fact what he is being paid for. Your parallels break down at that point.
I’m seeing that instead of giving the people of Scotland ownership of their own railways the Scottish government have given the people of Holland ownership of it instead. Scotrail will be run by Abeelio, a subsidiary of the Dutch national railways, and profits from Scotland will subsidise Dutch rail fares.
If you’re not a nationalist, Fred, why would you worry which faceless conglomerate in another country owns Scottish railways?
George Monbiot deals with that today, happily:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/07/bullying-corporations-enemy-within-business-politicians
Ours is a toll-booth economy, unchallenged by any major party, in which companies which have captured essential public services – water, energy, trains – charge extraordinary fees we have no choice but to pay. If there is a “generational struggle to defend the principles of the free market”, it’s a struggle against the corporations, which have replaced the market with a state-endorsed oligarchy.
It’s because of the power of corporations that the minimum wage remains so low, while executives cream off millions. It’s because of this power that most people in poverty are in work, and the state must pay billions to supplement their appalling wages. It’s because of this power that, in the midst of a crisis so severe that the world has lost over 50% of its vertebrate wildlife in just 40 years, the government is organising a bonfire of environmental protection. It’s because of this power that instead of innovative taxation (such as a financial transactions tax and land value taxation) we have permanent austerity for the poor. It’s because of this power that billions are still pumped into tax havens. It’s because of this power that Britain is becoming a tax haven in its own right.
And still they want more. Through a lobbying industry and a political funding system, successive governments have failed to reform, corporations select and buy and bully the political class to prevent effective challenge to their hegemony.
Interested students of corporate power would also do well to research how much money is paid by the taxpayer to these models of private enterprise. Start here –
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/benefits-corporate-welfare-research-public-money-businesses
“I’m seeing that instead of giving the people of Scotland ownership of their own railways the Scottish government have given the people of Holland ownership of it instead. Scotrail will be run by Abeelio, a subsidiary of the Dutch national railways, and profits from Scotland will subsidise Dutch rail fares.”
Abelio runs the East Anglian franchise and is as hopeless as the other 1000 companies that operate the most expensive railways in Europe, we are still within it and long may it last. Abelio got the franchise after bidding the highest sum to the treasury, which it is now recouping.
Most likely they also offered more than Scotrail, so what you get under devo max is more exploded, more expensive services and less jobs. I hope that NO voters take note of this first measure by the coalition.
Go and say thank you to the Liob Dems whilst they are still in Glasgow. Give em a little kiss to pass on to Osborne.
“If you’re not a nationalist, Fred, why would you worry which faceless conglomerate in another country owns Scottish railways?”
I think that railways should be in public ownership. I’m not an out and out Socialist who thinks everything should be in public ownership but the Capitalist doctrine that everything should be privatised is madness.
We can certainly agree on that, Fred.
Would that be a Glasgow kiss Nevermind? 🙂
Can Cleggover convince any one to vote LD again?
How depressing to read this –
‘ survey by YouGov gave the Conservatives a two point lead over Labour among voters asked about their choice in next year’s general election.
It put the Tories on a 36 per cent potential vote share, with Labour on 34 per cent, the UK Independence Party on 13 per cent and the Lib Dems on just 7 per cent.
YouGov’s survey was the second poll to put the Tories ahead following the Prime Minister’s party conference speech last week.’
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/519160/Conservatives-up-two-points-in-poll
Kempe
7 Oct, 2014 – 2:10 pm
“I’m sorry I’d forgotten that the Lib Dems had taken El Paso in the last election and totally missed the relevence of a small vocal Jewish lobby group there to Euroscepticism in the Lib Dems more familiar constituencies closer to home.”
“How foolish of me.”
_________________________________________
The El Paso link was an example of how minority pressure groups can and do undermine democracy.
Whether it is the Zionists in the USA or UKIP, EDL or Zionists in the UK it illustrates the same phenomena.
Obviously you are unable to think outside the box.
Lawrence Pollard Iain. Have not heard of him before.
‘Posted on Oct 7, 2014 7:53
592 plays
‘British Pakistani Moazzam Begg, 46, is perhaps best known for spending three years in US detention at Guantanamo Bay, before being released without charge in 2005. Since then, he’s become a vocal campaigner for other families caught up in anti-terrorism legislation. Earlier this year he was again detained, this time at Belmarsh prison near London, on suspicion of involvement in terrorist-related activities in Syria. Last week – after seven months – he was released and all charges were dropped. Moazzam Begg came into the studio and spoke to the BBC’s Lawrence Pollard. They began by discussing how best to avoid other people being caught up in the fight against Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria.’
Here on a video
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01hb5fx
and if anyone is interested
‘Lawrence Pollard is one of the regular presenters of Newsday, on BBC World Service, which is broadcast globally on the network.
Lawrence worked for several years as the culture correspondent for BBC World Service, before presenting the World Today daily news show. Among his favourite recent assignments were politics in Havana, economic catastrophe in Las Vegas and film in Ouagadougou.
Lawrence has worked across BBC radio news and television, as a producer and presenter on BBC Radio 4, BBC Radio 3, BBC World Service and BBC Two.
Before working joining the BBC, Lawrence worked in in local radio, taught and studied art. He lives in London.’
Well embedded in the matrix.
Mary; Welcome back to the trenches.
Yes, indeed Mary, good to see you back.
Welcome back Mary,hope you’re feeling better.
George Monbiot has an excellent article today
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/07/bullying-corporations-enemy-within-business-politicians
I hope someone at the LibDem conference will tackle Vince Cable on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). In what other area is massive compensation [for putative lost profits] available to those who lose the work they wanted? Not redundant employees – unless for those at the top getting sticky golden handshakes.
Critics (and supporters) of TTIP should note the public discussion of it at LSE on Monday 13 October at 6.30 pm. The panel includes Pascal Lamy. Peter Sutherland and the UK Ambassador to France, Peter Ricketts (also PUS 2006-10, then National Security Adviser 2010-12. He gave evidence to the Iraq Inquiry in November 2009).
http://www.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2014/10/20141013t1830vSZT.aspx
This is an unticketed, unreserved free event. Based on previous experience it would be as well to turn up at least 30 minutes early (at LSE’s New Academic Building, entry at 54 Lincoln’s Inn Fields, WC2A 3LJ). There are usually interesting neighbours to talk to: in any case, it’s worth spending time drafting crisp questions together with follow-ups to expected bland replies. For those who cannot attend – sadly I can’t – there will probably be a podcast after the event on http://www.lse.ac.uk/publicevents .
professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law Francis Boyle said.
“Nuland certainly is not over there to promote democracy: there are elections coming up in Ukraine toward the end of the month, but clearly these are “Potemkin’s village” elections simply to enable the Obama administration to say there is a democratically elected government and parliament, while no one in Donbas is voting and there’s already been lustration applied to prevent any of the opposition to vote.”
“Nuland, who is responsible for the coup d’état against former president Yanukovich and for bringing Petro Poroshenko in power, is not interested in establishing democracy in Ukraine, but instead in making Ukraine at least de facto member of NATO and using this as a jumping off point for destabilization of the Russian Federation”, Francis Boyle told RIA Novosti.
http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20141006/193742978/Nuland-Arrives-to-Ukraine-to-Give-Poroshenko-Marching-Orders-Prior-to-Elections.html
Missed you and your input Mary,glad to see you back.
TTIP seems to be a topic that our MSM and main political parties ignore.
For the LibDems and Labour it would be a ray of hope FOR the NHS if they simply objected to it,made sure that anything which would put corporations above countries was struck from the treaty.But they don’t. They are both as complicit as the Conservative party.It’s just a method of reducing wages and enslaving the working population even more.Ironically ,in the country where we’ve outsourced most of our manufacturing wages are rising as are workers expectations.On my last visit , workers were getting 300 US per month for 5 days,+ food and board.2005 the same facilities were paying 100 US with food and board for 6 days.
I’m seeing that instead of giving the people of Scotland ownership of their own railways the Scottish government have given the people of Holland ownership of it instead. Scotrail will be run by Abeelio, a subsidiary of the Dutch national railways, and profits from Scotland will subsidise Dutch rail fares.
_________________________________
Wrong again Fred.
Keith Brown COULDN’T award the contract to a home grown company due to the 1993 Railways Act, of which Labour had 13 years of power at Westminster to repeal it, they didn’t.
The contract HAD to be awarded to a company outside of the UK, and the RMT and Labour who’ve moaned all day about this should look at themselves in the mirror, they caused this.
I vaguely recall Westminster being fined £50 million quid for awarding a contract to a UK based firm, the other foreign firms complained and the award was upheld, If memory serves me it was the west coast line.
Hi Mary hope you’re feeling better, welcome back.
Clegg receiving a standing ovation in the Armadillo, in Glasgow talk about mass hysteria, or could it be MK Ultra,in action.
“Keith Brown COULDN’T award the contract to a home grown company due to the 1993 Railways Act, of which Labour had 13 years of power at Westminster to repeal it, they didn’t.”
Of course they could, the Railways Act doesn’t stop awarding contracts to home grown companies, Firstgroup have the contract now.
When the new powers of devolution came in Firstgroup could be nationalised.
Fred; How would you describe your politics. I admit I’m getting confused.
“Fred; How would you describe your politics. I admit I’m getting confused.”
Try just thinking about the points I raise rather than trying to analyse me and you won’t get confused. What is it with people here that they are always looking inwards not outwards.
I’m just somebody who thinks that some things, such as telecoms, have improved vastly with privatisation while other things, like railways, have got worse.
Of course they could, the Railways Act doesn’t stop awarding contracts to home grown companies, Firstgroup have the contract now.
When the new powers of devolution came in Firstgroup could be nationalised.
_____________________
Fred
I tip my hat to you sir, you are correct, although Abellio do seem to be offering more in the way of Wi-Fi and other goodies to woo the customer,the First Group have lost a few contracts in the UK, and I wonder if Ben knows that they have the contract in the US to run the yellow school buses. The First Group also operate the US Greyhound buses.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/08/uk-firstgroup-results-idUKKCN0HX0GH20141008
“Try just thinking about the points I raise rather than trying to analyse me”
I’m not trying to analyze you ffs. It’s a simple question. If I had been asked I would say Left Libertarian, although it doesn’t help to apply a label. But I don’t see consistency in your approach unless it’s nihilism. When I engaged you the other day on reforms you said it wasn’t important and that you suggested that your jury-pool idea was just dithering. You aren’t trying to change the world. It’s not important that I see consistency I guess, so just forget it.