The wealthy right-winger Yvette Cooper has just been on television intoning Labour’s new mantra “It isn’t racist to be worried about immigration.” This should be challenged robustly at all times. Above all, it is very, very racist for politicians to go around saying “It isn’t racist to be worried about immigration” when they are using it nakedly and cynically to bid for the votes of racists.
I can never recall any by-election that got as much BBC publicity as that in Rochester, not even Hillhead or Warrington. The BBC and media establishment are continuing their massive promotion of UKIP at all times. The Labour Party is responding by pandering to racism. Yvette spoke of the “race to the bottom in the labour market”. The country’s real problem is the race to the bottom in the fascist market.
Promising 1.000 new uniformed border guards as their headline policy initiative is a pretty impressive spurt by Labour in this fascist race.
It shows how sour politics have gone when it takes the Confederation of British Industry to inject some sense from a liberal perspective into the immigration debate. Over 60% of CBI embers say that immigration has benefited their company. Only 3% believe it has hurt their company. Immigration is a tremendous boon to the British economy. Without it we would be deep in recession. Nor is it in the least responsible for the growing wealth gap. The period of highest immigration into the UK coincided with the period when social mobility and social equality were making the most progress.
That people still fall for the old con-trick astonishes me. Don’t blame Britain’s 100 billionaires, multi millionaire bankers or grasping landlords for your poverty – look! blame that foreign-looking poor man over there. He is eating a bit of cheese. He has taken that cheese from the mouths of your children!
It is primal and it is ludicrous, but the appeal to atavism can work and Labour are seeking to profit from it.
The Labour Party’s deliberate conflation of the unrelated questions of corporate, banker and executive rapacity, the exploitation of the workforce, and immigration is deeply, deeply, shameful. There was very little Yvette Cooper said that Nigel Farage would not second. But that, after all, was the purpose of the exercise.
Mary
“I expected those two replies from the usual suspects to my medical anecdote. I am sure that there are masses of job opportunities in Greece and Ireland where the economies have been raided by the IMF and the countries bankrupted and in the Phillipines where extreme poverty is the norm. The latter has been an occupied colony of the US for a long time. What do the Phillipine people get out of the deal? Not much”
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Again you start off your post with an insult. The first time round it was “racists”, now it is “the usual suspects”.
But to address your point:
Medical personnel – especially nurses – having been coming to the UK in large numbers from the Phillipines and Ireland since well before the financial crisis to which you now refer. Idem for African and Caribbean countries.
Do you think it is good that nurses who have been trained (often at govt expense) in the Phillipines should work abroad, thereby depriving their own country of sorely needed human capital and contributing to a brain drain?
Mary (as an afterthought)
“British nurses are leaving the profession because of the scandalous and insulting pay on offer.”
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Is that not what I said? See my post at 16h38 :
“– might it not be better if the status, pay and conditions of medical personnel were enhanced so as to make the profession more attractive to the indigenous population?”
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If you could put aside your tendency to knee-jerk reactions and your perpetual sense of grievance and read what I write properly you would make less of a fool of yourself. Your obvious lack of intelligence notwithstanding.
It is not racist to be worried about immigration! In many sectors, ranging from cleaning work to the building trades, immigrant workers from Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria and Romania are working for as little as a third of the wages that British workers used to work for. That’s a fact. And the British workers tend to have larger outgoings because they’ve got mortgages and families.
I am left wing and anti-racist and I am absolutely fucked if I am going to ignore this very real issue!
I’ll tell you what the answer is to the problem. It’s stronger trade unions – unions that welcome immigrants as members on the same basis as British workers, and that struggle to impose closed shops on that basis.
As long as the real problem here isn’t recognised, many working class people in Britain are going to vote for UKIP. And who can blame them, when UKIP are the only major party to recognise the problem? Yes, they are a bunch of right-wing arseholes who support the car lobby and would cut benefits faster than Labour and the Tories. But they recognise a real problem that the other parties can only respond to by in effect saying that British workers are a bunch of smelly dirty racist oiks for mentioning it.
Well it’s bloody funny how there’s more ‘racial’ intermixing in the working class than there is in any other class!
To say discussing immigration is racist is privileged nonsense.
No one wins in the current immigration set up except those who want to pay nothing for good work.
Cheap party politics or liberal hypocrisy from Craig?
Mary says the following:
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“There is a long standing relationship between the hospital concerned and Phillipino nurses. They come to work here to send money necessary for their families and then ultimately return. British nurses are leaving the profession because of the scandalous and insulting pay on offer. 1% offered. Inflation over the period in question 12%. Enough said.”
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What if these Phillipino nurses did not come here, en mass?
This “long standing relationship” is exactly what has allowed nurses in this country to be treated – as you say – in a “scandalous and insulting” manner. I totally agree! If they were not so readily replaced with Philipinos, don’t you think some serious notice might be taken about the nurses who – as you say – are leaving the profession?
Do you actually reply, Mary? I get the impression you take any follow up comment or question as an insult.
The Folletts (and many others in large amounts) dip into their pockets for Ed Balls. Who are these individuals who have £000s to give away to useless politicians like Balls? Cannot think of a more unworthy cause.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11740/edward_balls/morley_and_outwood#register recent
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=11740 historic – includes some trips to Israel. He is LFoI. He was exultant on the stage in Trafalgar Square when ‘Israel’ celebrated its 60th birthday, the anniversary of Al Naqba more correctly.
To describe most of the people in Britain, including a majority of the immigrant population, as racists because they seek a restriction on immigration is to call democracy racist.
Craig Murray, as a globalist, is opposed to democracy because the democratic will of the vast majority of the World’s population is opposed to the destruction of their own nation as a racial and cultural entity. Craig Murray is allied with the deracinated global plutocracy that seeks to destroy the powerful nation states, such as the UK or Russia, in the interests of the money power.
It is astonishing that the assault on the rights of peoples defined by territory to rule themselves in their own interest rather than to be ruled in the interest either of poor people elsewhere or of the corporations that wish to employ poor people from elsewhere is conducted in the name of democracy. But this is possible because the reality of Western democracy is a widely believed myth, and what serves in the name of Western Democracy is in fact a cloak for plutocracy.
Craig, in the service of the very rich, seeks the destruction of the British people as a distinct biological and cultural entity. By calling those who oppose this project racists, Craig Murray is calling opposition to genocide racism.
In fact, the main argument for mass immigration is a racist one: that the Brits are too incompetent or lazy to do the work that must be done to maintain the competitiveness of British industry.
I will leave the doggies to chew on their bones.
It seems Habbabkuk made the same point as myself (and rather more concisely, I admit).
………………..
Ben said “I didn’t suggest it was racist and living wage is a major issue, but how would you get skilled wages for unskilled work? Nationalizing private industry with mandated minimum wages?”
Of course not, but if the unskilled work needs doing, the employer needs to pay the rate necessary to get people to do it. Not import people who will do it at poverty wages (albeit better than they’d get in their own country), or get prison labour on the job (as you mentioned earlier).
Mary said “I will leave the doggies to chew on their bones.”
I see. Engaging in debate is clearly beneath you. Insulting those who ask perfectly polite questions, however, is not.
Interesting data here on net migration to many of the world’s countries, over the past 14 years.
France is low over the years, whilst Germany’s is similar to Britain’s which is much lower than that to the USA.
From the CIA factbook, so could be disinfo of course.
I’d agree that the argument ought to be an economic rather than an ismist kinda thing, other than to say that it was ismism which was used to shout down opponents of the policy.
I don’t remember Cooper arguing against Neo Labour’s open borders policy as she shimmied up the greasy pole, and of course Margaret Beckett famously consoled worried middle class lunchie lady friends with the promise of cheaper nannies.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=27&c=uk&l=en
Reluctant Observer
I think we are speaking along the same lines.
Is it not the case that, in effect, the UK is getting nurses on the cheap (and to the longer-term detriment of the third countries concerned).
NOT because Phillipino nurses are paid less than British ones – they are not – but because the UK lets a foreign country shoulder the expense of training nurses and then siphons them off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But perhaps one shouldn’t spend too long on this single issues of nurses. Fair enough that Mary should introduce it, but it is but a small part of the global issue of immigration which Craig has invited us to discuss.
The parteis are vying with each other. Now Rachel Reeves steps up.
EU migrants would wait two years for jobless benefits, Labour says Migrants currently have a three-month wait before they can apply for Jobseeker’s Allowance
EU migrants would have to wait two years before claiming out of work benefits, under new Labour Party plans.
They currently have to wait for three months to apply for income-based jobseeker’s allowance.
Shadow work and pensions secretary Rachel Reeves also wants to end child benefit being sent abroad and to curb in-work benefits paid to EU migrants.
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30102310
@Habba
“Is it not the case that, in effect, the UK is getting nurses on the cheap (and to the longer-term detriment of the third countries concerned).”
Off course. But the Brits are such pathetic dipsticks that they are unable to perform even basic services such cleaning bedpans for themselves and therefore it is necessary for the racially superior people of the Third World to make some sacrifice in the name of anti-racism for the benefit of these poor degenerate folk, for whom Craig Murray speaks so heart-rendingly.
Herbie (and welcome back)
“I don’t remember Cooper arguing against Neo Labour’s open borders policy as she shimmied up the greasy pole, and of course Margaret Beckett famously consoled worried middle class lunchie lady friends with the promise of cheaper nannies.”
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You are right, of course. The govt in 2004 and onwards was Labour.
But as I hinted earlier on in my little critique of Craig’s introductory post, we do a disservice by making party political points out of the immigration issue (this is precisely what the political parties themselves do) rather than attempting to analyse it rationally and objectively.
Phil : “I hazily recall an estimate (of course the land registry obfuscates) by Cahill that one tenth of land in England is developed upon. That’s little (un)crowded England. Once Wales and Scotland are included that figure goes way down.”
Point taken. Check a map of Caithness. When you discount the few scattered villages round the coast, then divide the rest amongst half a dozen estates, then do a sum on a beermat, the population density of landowners is 1 cu*t / 300 sq km.
Habbabkuk : We are speaking on the same lines, but I don’t think it’s bogging down the discussion. Philipino nurses are paid the same as British ones, certainly. But that does not mean the proper going rate for such a skilled, vital job is being paid. The Philipinos are effectively dragging down the cost, by their numbers and willingness to accept a very low wage.
The same could be said for any number of other professions. Nurses today are highly skilled. But at the unskilled end, mass immigration achieves the same outcome.
Even worse, an immigrant is entitled to the same benefits as anyone else. So if someone brings their entire family and gets a minimum wage job, which would go nowhere near providing for them, the taxpayer will give them – in benefits – what the employer has not.
Employers are very happy about this, as Murray has made clear. British people generally are not, because of the cost in both taxes, employment opportunities taken away, and wages driven down. Using the slur “racist” to dismiss such concerns is absolutely unworthy.
Just a onservation to stimulate (I hope) others and therefore no conclusions at this stage.
Any examination of the immigration question (is it a problem? how big? what are the benefits and drawbacks, economic and other? possible remedies? racism? etc…) will only be fruitful if it looks at it by category. These categories are:
1/. Illegal immigration (whichever form this takes). This, by definition, concerns essentially only non-EU nationals.
2/. Legal immigration, broken down as follows:
a) legal immigration from non-EU countries
b) immigration from EU countries as benefit tourism
c) immigration from EU countries for work in the UK.
Public discussion suffers because these categories are often confused, if not conflated. Government is as responsible for this as anyone else (perhaps more so).
Peter Kassig’s execution may have been faked by Jihadi John after the US hostage was killed in an US-led airstrike, according to extraordinary claims from the leader of a Syrian underground group.
Speaking over Skype from a hiding place near the Turkish border, the head of the anti-ISIS resistance group Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently claimed there are reports that Mr Kassig died on November 5, when coalition fighter planes and drones pounded Tel-Abyad in northern Syria.
The extraordinary allegation could not be independently verified.
The claims come among increased speculation over why Mr Kassig’s full body was not shown in the video. Unlike ISIS’ previous sickening filmed murders, he did not speak directly to camera before being killed and his body was not shown after the murder.
U.S. sources have suggested that Mr Kassig could have been killed before the video was shot because he did not cooperate with the jihadists, either refusing to give a final speech on camera or possibly even fighting back while the murder was taking place.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2837449/Was-hostage-killed-American-airstrike-beheading-video-Peter-Kassig-died-bombing-raid-days-raid-days-Jihadi-John-paraded-severed-head-claim-Syrian-activists.html
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Sounds like a double bluff to me.
Yes, habby.
It’s an economic issue, so I expect now that discussion of the matter has become respectable it just means the economy has had enough immigration for the moment.
I wouldn’t be investing too much in the retail and pub/food sectors for example, where many migrants work.
The politicos are merely making a virtue out of necessity.
Selling of the NHS for profit, 70 members or ex-members of parliament, who have links with, private health care firms.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154
With East-West relations at rock bottom, Russia’s leading blue chip companies are toying with the idea of abandoning the London Stock Exchange as the long preferred venue for listing their shares, and moving to Hong Kong.
In the last month, state-owned oil and gas giants Rosneft and Gazprom, together with privately owned oil producer Lukoil, have all said they are thinking about delisting from the LSE and floating on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange instead and denominating their stocks in Asian currencies, according to comments made by Russia’s Economic Development Ministry on November 8.
http://russia-insider.com/en/china_politics_business/2014/11/12/09-44-32pm/ussian_blue_chips_consider_abandoning_london_hong_kong
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Putin hits the ball back over the net, to Cameron and Co, after G20 threat.
“CBI embers” – if only!
Trying to keep on topic for the moment, it is hard to see an argument that encouraging foreign medical staff here in such numbers is in our long term interests.
For one thing, our health system would collapse should the winds of fortune change, and large numbers find it preferable to go elsewhere. The nurses (Filipino in the main) either do not stay here permanently – thus completely depriving their own country of their services – or they don’t, in which case the UK has lost that experience. In the meantime, a UK nurse will not be employed, and will not have that experience.
A lot of the disposable income they are paid will disappear overseas, preventing the wages circulating in this economy. The same can be said for a lot of migrant workers.
It would appear that if nurses are leaving the profession, largely because of the wages, we end up with only those British nurses who have other income support (partner with a highly paid job, for example), and British nurses willing to be working poor. The gap in numbers is being met by those from the Philippines.
As far as other migrant workers are concerned, only the most able and innovative are going to up sticks and move to another country. Those very people, who are most needed in a developing economy, are going to absent themselves.
Mary
There have now been a few thoughtful posts on the question of immigrant nurses, a topic you first raised.
Would you feel this is a good moment to step in and comment?
Glenn-uk
“Trying to keep on topic for the moment,….”
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And you do well to try. I am happy to note that everyone IS keeping on topic, with the sole exception of one gentleman who has posted, successively, on Peter Kassig’s execution, MPs and large Russian companies.
And they call me the ‘disruptor’ !
@glenn_uk “The nurses (Filipino in the main) either do not stay here permanently – thus completely depriving their own country of their services – or they don’t, in which case the UK has lost that experience.”
I meant to say, either they DO stay here permanently etc. – a “not” crept into the sentence, entirely negating the point and rendering it meaningless. I don’t bother correcting my typos usually, but that one did require correcting.
@Habbabkuk: The Disruptor was a particularly nasty weapon I seem to recall!
I note that nobody who has reservations about immigration, at least writing here, has declared a dislike of foreigners among their concerns. Either that’s just a given, and all such writers do not voice their intrinsic racism, or there are actually reasons other than racism at play here.
@glenn_uk “The nurses (Filipino in the main) either stay here permanently – thus completely depriving their own country of their services – or they don’t, in which case the UK has lost that experience.”
You win some you lose some. But in any case you get some people to do the work the British won’t do, as the racist black lady on the tram told Emma West. And they’re cheap. That’s the main thing.
It seems amazing, though, that people tolerate this extremist anti-British hate speech: calling those who seek to protect their own economic interest racists.
@Glenn_UK
nobody who has reservations about immigration, at least writing here, has declared a dislike of foreigners
Foreigners broaden the diversity of the population, both physically and culturally. Some one may really like, Vietnamese girls, for example, are often cute, West Indians, at least the ones I knew when I was in Britain, seem like real decent folk.
Others one may reasonably hate: like Muslims who seek the coming of a Muslim dominated Parliament in Britain, or loonies who behead British soldiers minding their own business on the streets of London.
But whether you like them or hate them, they will, in sufficient numbers, displace the culture and posterity of the indigenous people with their own culture and posterity, a benign process of genocide, which evidently most Brits are aware of and are strongly opposed to, however loudly they are called racists for opposing the extinction of their own people.