The wealthy right-winger Yvette Cooper has just been on television intoning Labour’s new mantra “It isn’t racist to be worried about immigration.” This should be challenged robustly at all times. Above all, it is very, very racist for politicians to go around saying “It isn’t racist to be worried about immigration” when they are using it nakedly and cynically to bid for the votes of racists.
I can never recall any by-election that got as much BBC publicity as that in Rochester, not even Hillhead or Warrington. The BBC and media establishment are continuing their massive promotion of UKIP at all times. The Labour Party is responding by pandering to racism. Yvette spoke of the “race to the bottom in the labour market”. The country’s real problem is the race to the bottom in the fascist market.
Promising 1.000 new uniformed border guards as their headline policy initiative is a pretty impressive spurt by Labour in this fascist race.
It shows how sour politics have gone when it takes the Confederation of British Industry to inject some sense from a liberal perspective into the immigration debate. Over 60% of CBI embers say that immigration has benefited their company. Only 3% believe it has hurt their company. Immigration is a tremendous boon to the British economy. Without it we would be deep in recession. Nor is it in the least responsible for the growing wealth gap. The period of highest immigration into the UK coincided with the period when social mobility and social equality were making the most progress.
That people still fall for the old con-trick astonishes me. Don’t blame Britain’s 100 billionaires, multi millionaire bankers or grasping landlords for your poverty – look! blame that foreign-looking poor man over there. He is eating a bit of cheese. He has taken that cheese from the mouths of your children!
It is primal and it is ludicrous, but the appeal to atavism can work and Labour are seeking to profit from it.
The Labour Party’s deliberate conflation of the unrelated questions of corporate, banker and executive rapacity, the exploitation of the workforce, and immigration is deeply, deeply, shameful. There was very little Yvette Cooper said that Nigel Farage would not second. But that, after all, was the purpose of the exercise.
yes this has been an interesting THREAD… drawing some old regulars Back.. and a wee bit less mud slinging.
i have to agree with the notion that Politicians, and media have much to answer for on this subject. We seen how it works Very recently in the Scottish indyref… it’s a Fact, that Some groups of people get information from ONLY MsM…Tabloid Print, Tabloid tv ( biased bbC )
on Saturday night when this very subject came up ( politics was banned till i insisted that we should be able to discuss FFS ) –
A comment is made, Re immigration
I say, “Where did you hear that ?, we Have to be careful as to where we get information ”
Result.. a lady going off on Tirade – said lady gets her info from the sun, daily fckn record…bbfkn C ect ..Who in turn Spout the Establishment Mantras.
I was looking into these Maters, But I think i learned more about the u.s.a side.. i found this to be an interesting site Re Social Sciences. racism, and much else.. Very good research indeed
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/
@Glenn_uk
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.” Reinhold Niebuhr
The forests were cut down a long time ago, there isn’t much I can do for the elephant but I can tell people the most efficient use of resources is not to plough up every inch of land you can with petrochemical eating machines and keep a few sheep in the zoo for old times sake.
People leave me alone I leave them alone, if they don’t I flame them, that’s how I work.
Brian; Correctomundo. It’s garbage-in/garbage-out for information processing. Congrats on another young-un if you don’t mind my saying so.
Skotskinorge
19 Nov, 2014 – 7:20 pm
“I presume you occupy the extreme left end of the political spectrum…”
……………………………………..
Well I don’t consider myself to be that Skotskinorge. It would help the discussion if you defined what you mean by “extreme left”.
……………………………………..
“(that part of it with miniscule popular support but massive over-representation in the leadership of the Yes movement).”
……………………………………..
I presume you are talking about Alex Salmond and the SNP but they did get 45% of the popular support. That is not miniscule is it?
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“There is something very Orwellian about the fact that it won’t be safe to be ‘worried’ about immigration until we get to that point where the indigenous population is in the minority.”
……………………………………..
Firstly, what is “Orwellian” about this issue Skotskinorge?
Secondly, can I point out that Muslims in the UK account for a mere 4.41% of the population?
……………………………………..
“After WW2, any Serbs who expressed their concern about the ethnography of Kosovo were labelled nationalists or racists, so people tended to keep quiet about the subject.”
……………………………………..
Can you back that statement up with some evidence?
Also, I have met many WWII Serbian immigrants over the years and, although I found most of them friendly enough socially, two things that struck me about there culture was their nationalism and racism.
@Fred: Sir, if you look at the record here, you will find that I argued that using the word “retard” was misguided as an insult. That was very far from “flaming” someone, and was nowhere near using “fighting words”.
For God’s sake, some of the people in that video had the word “Retard” on their T-shirts, to show that they were trying to battle on with life despite their condition. Using it as a cheap insult is … well, you know.
Cheers Ben
Wee Ben and mother doing Fine.
Interesting conversation going on here Re the deeper workings of Humanity.
“@Fred: Sir, if you look at the record here, you will find that I argued that using the word “retard” was misguided as an insult. That was very far from “flaming” someone, and was nowhere near using “fighting words”.
For God’s sake, some of the people in that video had the word “Retard” on their T-shirts, to show that they were trying to battle on with life despite their condition. Using it as a cheap insult is … well, you know.”
People don’t like it they can not get personal.
People get personal that’s what they get.
End of story.
Ben. 2 54pm
Sofia; I regret that families must flee oppressive governments seeking refugee status. Who can refuse safe harbor?
Of course our humanity requires that we offer a hand to all those who are the vivtims of our rulers’ wars and looting, BUT I think we need to debate how our societies can do this in ways which allow and encourage both indigenous and immigrant communities to thrive. I think we need to listen to the fears expressed by those at the bottom of the heap who find themselves at the sharp end of competition for housing and income with immigrants. If we don’t then we leave them prey to the manipulators.
…
Mark 3 09pm
“Will memes and campaigns such as ‘Love Music Hate Racism’ and ‘One Society Many Cultures’ push back THE GROWING RACISM?
Yes! I believe they will.
Give it a few years and our young people will fall in love across the racial and cultural divides as they have always done (my own real parents included). Most of the older generation will choose to be proud grandparents of rainbow children rather than hang onto old fears and prejudices.
…
Dad. 4 08pm
Re hate-mongers.
and 4 41pm e(Scotland Constitution thread)
“You are a pretentious chump with zero self-awarness, aren’t yo.”)
Thanks.
It does wonders for a girl’s self-esteem to get such smoldering endorsements form her Dad on two seperate threads.
And you even went to the trouble of doing a translation from Pretentious to English so readers could understand what I really meant. You are too kind.
But I really think you should pay a bit more attention. I’ve a feeling you are the only one who miscunstrued my comment about hate-mongers as relating to comments here rather than the messages emenating from servants of the elites in Wall Street, the City of London and Tel Aviv. Did you really think Passerby, Mackey and Ba’al are dumb enough to get into a fight over my comment?
If you weren’t such fecking useless troll you’d have picked up on this particular hate-monger, so here he is again. You can check outfor yourself who the esteemed rabbi was refering to,
“Rabbin Dieudonné descend du singe”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VhHq7DSIU
As I said, hate-mongers come in many different hues. Any comment?
Vive la diversité. Vive aussi le mélange.
…
It’s not how many of us there are so much as whether we learn to inhabit or choose to continue to occupy the landscape,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeTQtzkpLQQ
@Fred: “People don’t like it they can not get personal.
People get personal that’s what they get.
End of story.”
Fair enough. But if they use “fighting words” with me – as you did – unprompted – that makes it personal.
You see, I have family who could be described as “retards” because of their physical and mental challenges.
It doesn’t get more “personal” than that. I, myself, do not suffer from such challenges. So if people want to use “fighting words” with me, it would be far less cowardly of them if they were prepared to meet up and say it face to face.
Good grief, Glenn, calm down. It’s only some Internet troll, an anonoymous coward, talking to you. “Fred” would type a thousand “retard cunts” before he’d have the courage to say that to somebody’s face.
“Fred” would never, ever, have the courage to say anything like that in real life. I bet your name really, actually, is “Glenn”, isn’t it?
With all due respect… you’re new to the Internet, aren’t you Glenn?
Those still arguing about the adverse effects they claim that immigration in causing iro employment conditions, obviously don’t understand the integral basis that countries like the UK are actually constituted on, namely the free market economy, and are also seeking to blame a Consequence rather than the Cause for the manifestation of the Consequence ! Easier to blame the Consequence, rather than advocate for Revolution !
It’s touching all this concern about the loss of talent, education & training expenses occurred in the home countries of immigrants, however forgive me for being cynical, but these expressions of concern really do not seem to be expressed for the right reasons !
Funny also that those concerned for “loss of culture” seem to be oblivious to the on-growing transformation of the UK into 51st State of the US, with corporation like Starbucks transforming our High Streets, and foreign transplanted customs like Trick or Treat taking over from the traditional Penny For the Guy ! These “loss of culture” worries would sound a little more genuine if concern was also directed towards the massive detrimental impact that the US has on our culture.
I wonder if those pointing out that Britain was more racist in the past, realize that they are effectively highlighting the success of multiculturalism ?!
Are those issuing concerns about “social cohesion” not engaging in playing up a self-fulfilling scenario, especially with all this emotive talk of “Genocide” etc; are they not concern that their emotively expressed “concerns” fuel rather than promote the very social harmony they say that they value ?
@Ba’al, you claim not to be hot under the collar, yet end-up with the good old F- word ! 😀
@glenn_uk, you don’t seem to be too hot on the perceiving front, and seem quite gullible also; the fact that you asked Mary, “Could you point to anything unpleasant anyone here has said to you”, must also mean that you see only what you want to see as you missed these little expressions of endearment;
“read what I write properly you would make less of a fool of yourself”
“Your obvious lack of intelligence notwithstanding”
Right now Glenn UK I can do without your comments. I think you have got a bit of s nerve. There is history and I have a long memory.
‘Polite’ Ha! I know exactly what the intention was.
@ thanks Sofia re-global gardener.
“To maintain the frogs and lizard as to keep the pests””…
We are all good people and can all better ourselves. Migration enables people to better themselves. That’s what we do at our best. Now let’s better our environment and get over this hurdle of racism.
Craig you need to get over it! Stop being so illiberal.
“Fair enough. But if they use “fighting words” with me – as you did – unprompted – that makes it personal.”
I didn’t pick on you, you picked on me.
I will not be harassed or intimidated I will defend myself when attacked whether you like it or not.
Anybody can’t understand that is a fucking retard.
“Good grief, Glenn, calm down. It’s only some Internet troll, an anonoymous coward, talking to you. “Fred” would type a thousand “retard cunts” before he’d have the courage to say that to somebody’s face.
“Fred” would never, ever, have the courage to say anything like that in real life. I bet your name really, actually, is “Glenn”, isn’t it?”
Fuck off and die retard cunt.
Craig is absolutely right. Labour is just as bad as UKIP and the Conservatives, and Yvette Cooper is one of the dirtiest politicians around.
Those still arguing about the adverse effects they claim that immigration in causing iro employment conditions, obviously don’t understand the integral basis that countries like the UK are actually constituted on, namely the free market economy, and are also seeking to blame a Consequence rather than the Cause for the manifestation of the Consequence ! Easier to blame the Consequence, rather than advocate for Revolution !
If you will do me the favour of reading my earlier posts, you will see that that is pretty well my position: the other concerns being, as I said, incidental. Though not trivial, and certainly open to debate.
It’s touching all this concern about the loss of talent, education & training expenses occurred in the home countries of immigrants, however forgive me for being cynical, but these expressions of concern really do not seem to be expressed for the right reasons !
The only ‘right reason’ I can see for expressing a concern is that you have the concern. And it is difficult not to be somewhat concerned, as an unreconstructed native Brit of advanced years, when your local market town appears to be turning into a detached suburb of Gdansk.
@Ba’al, you claim not to be hot under the collar, yet end-up with the good old F- word ! 😀
I refer the hon. Member to Fred’s catchphrase. Retard cunt. 🙂
Oh, and – if you want to attack the “Cause”, how do you do it? Lacking the capital to buy it out or the influence to restrain its excesses? Well, you can resist its core mechanisms, can’t you? You see the use of migrant labour to lower production costs as an “Effect”. I see it as a built-in “Strategy” for further channeling wealth away from producers into unproductive speculators’ offshore accounts. Oppose it for that reason if for no other.
Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)
19 Nov, 2014 – 8:24 pm
“I noticed that there were several usually loquacious posters who decided not to share their thoughts and opinions on immigration into the UK:”
……………………..
Lying again Habbabkuk
Dougie – I don’t regard Alex Salmond as belonging to the ‘extreme-left’, even if he is sometimes influenced by the views of those who do belong to it. When I say extreme-left, I mean modern, western European extreme-left ideas; to give some examples, I’d say those people who believe that women in the West are still very oppressed (yes, I hear your tutting) and hence would happily see a bit of gender madness applied to society. I would like women to have equal pay in the workplace and also violence against women to be punished with much, much more severity than it currently is, but what I don’t want to see is have the day come when local authorities cannot order a park bench without having prior meetings to decide whether the legs on the said bench show signs of gender bias. I refer you to Sweden if you think that’s not possible. It’s the kind of ideological line being peddled by many in Women for Independence (which, according to many of the women I speak to, may as well be called Ultra-Feminists for Independence). The majority of women in the group are not ultra-feminists, by any means, but the group is being pulled in that direction by its more extreme representatives – many of whom form part of the leadership of that group.
Another example of this ideology would be – I recently saw a Gay Pride parade (yes, I hear your tutting here too) in Oslo where floats of half-naked gay people danced with their scantily-clad children alongside them. In one case, one parent was dressed as a gimp (he held a child by the hand, so I assume the person was a parent). If you regard such behaviour as ‘okay’ and a celebration of the human spirit, then I’d argue that you hold pretty extreme views. I’d like to see much tougher sentencing for anyone who attacks someone for being gay, but I don’t want to live in a world where homosexuality is advertised in this way. Nowhere in the Communist Manifesto did I see a call for Gay Pride parades to be welcomed with open arms. The Pink Left (as they often describe themselves) have helped to erode the popular support of left-wing ideas amongs the working class over the past 40 years, I would argue. The likes of Peter Tatchell, that ‘left-wing, human rights’ campaigner, does nothing to forward the cause of socialism, but rather that of his own selfish, sexuality-obsessed, narcissism. One of my heroes, by the way, was Gore Vidal – a man, gay all his life, who regarded gay rights campaigning as a bit silly (he was against same-sex marriage even). Vidal did more for the left than the entire Pink Left has done over the past 50 years.
I’m all for showing solidarity with workers around the world. At some point in time, however, ‘solidarity’ came to mean welcoming hundreds of thousands of people from developing countries to come and live in the UK. Is it not possible to show solidarity to workers from those countries without encouraging them to come and live in the UK? ‘Well, if we didn’t bomb these countries…’ is the line often taken – and I wholeheartedly agree with that. I’d like to see all colonialism stopped. But I’d rather we support people in their own countries, or else – in times of war – support them in neighbouring countries whose culture and religious beliefs are similar. I’d call for more financial support from the West, much more, but not allow mass immigration from those countries into ones like the UK. You say ‘a mere’ 4.4% of the British population are muslim – 4.4 is such a small digit, but if you convert it into real numbers it amounts to c.3 million muslims. That’s rather a lot, I would argue, unless you consider the Welsh population to be irrelevant in the UK. I like the idea put forward by Jim Sillars during the referendum campaign – that Scotland purchase one of the aircraft carriers from UK Defence and convert it into a hospital ship that would be ready to go to the aid of people in the poorest and most strife-stricken parts of the world to administer emergency aid and assistance. That’s a noble idea I very much agree with. You’ll notice that Jim didn’t say he wanted to convert the ship into a floating hotel that would go around the world to collect people from developing countries and bring them back to Scotland to live. That would be a view I would not share, but to be against such an idea would be to purport racist ideas, according to some. Socialism is not liberalism. Something many people seem to have confused.
As for your (discriminatory) comment on Serbs, it’s too awful to pass much comment on. There is nothing inherently nationalistic or fascistic about Serb ‘culture’. I’d recommend you read up on a PR company called Ruder Finn – which was hired by the US to create the very image you appear to have saved into your long-term memory. Regarding the post-WW2 Serbs from Kosovo – I refer you to the many Serb documentaries on Youtube that feature interviews with Serbs from that era. But if your view of Serbs is unfavourable, I’d assume you regard Serb media as being untrustworthy. If you really are interested in what was once Yugoslavia, I’d recommend ‘To Kill a Nation – the Attack on Yugoslavia’ by Michael Parenti. And follow it up with ‘Travesty’ – by John Laughland. By the end of it, you’ll know that it is/was the Serbs who are/were the main victims in that region, and that Slobodan Milosevic was neither a Serb nationalist nor a fascist. His political ideas were so far removed from either of these terms that it’s shameful to even mention them. The fact that he is regarded as both of these things by the West just shows how incredibly powerful the Western media and NATO are.
As for the ‘Orwellian’ term – it is surely Orwellian to ‘ban’ speech that calls for a halt to a process that is forced onto the populace, and for that speech only to be made acceptable once that oppressive process has reached the point where democratic expression cannot stop it.
Fred – FOAD, you retard cunt!
By the way, have you stopped spreading those lurid allegations about your mother yet? Not nice, you know! 😉
Ba’al; “it is difficult not to be somewhat concerned, as an unreconstructed native Brit of advanced years, when your local market town appears to be turning into a detached suburb of Gdansk”
This in response to pointing out that expressed “concern” here that other countries are losing out because of their people immigrating, might not be too sincere !! 😀
Ba’al; “Oppose it for that reason if for no other”
Seems you are going around in circles in an arse about face way, because the answer to this, “if you want to attack the “Cause”, how do you do it?”, is for a total re-orientation of society, ie a Revolution, as tinkering with its inherent characteristics, is pissing in the wind, like complaining about the symptoms, but ignoring the disease.
@ Skotskinorge, great Post, you should post more often !
This in response to pointing out that expressed “concern” here that other countries are losing out because of their people immigrating, might not be too sincere !! 😀
It may well be sincere. No contradiction is visible to me. Perhaps you are being a humanitarian, here. If I agree with the ‘insincere’ argument it is on economic grounds. I don’t do empathy. Wrong stereotype. However,that argument is incidental. (Third time of stating this).
Seems you are going around in circles in an arse about face way, because the answer to this, “if you want to attack the “Cause”, how do you do it?”, is for a total re-orientation of society, ie a Revolution, as tinkering with its inherent characteristics, is pissing in the wind, like complaining about the symptoms, but ignoring the disease.
That’s your opinion, Mr. Brand. But I think we can take it that the assault direct will fail. The odds against a successful revolution by an unarmed populace against massively wealthy institutional forces are virtually nil, and even should a revolution succeed, we’d be back to the status quo ante within the decade. Or worse (see Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc…). And as long as your camp argues in favour of the mechanisms of subjugation, of which maximum labour flexibility at minimum cost is one, so will any other approach. Got any other good ideas?
Still, if we’re being nasty, I’m happy to see that your concern for the poor of other countries transcends that for the poor of this one. Such unselfishness will doubtless be rewarded, come the revolution.
And see:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/18/growth-destructive-economic-expansion-financial-crisis
Thanks for the comment, Macky!
Skotskinorge
19 Nov, 2014 – 1:12 pm
“It’s a pity that the more extreme left (especially the ‘human rights’ branch) appear to be heading to the top of the campaign for independence.”
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You seem to suggest here, that human rights are an exclusive policy of the extreme left. Are you serious?
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“Dougie, I presume you occupy the extreme left end of the political spectrum (that part of it with miniscule popular support but massive over-representation in the leadership of the Yes movement).”
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Skotskinorge
20 Nov, 2014 – 12:03 pm
……………………………………
Thank you for your long winded but not very informative reply Skotskinorge but I’m non-the-wiser as to why you presume I’m on the extreme left.
You said that the extreme left have “over-representation in the leadership of the Yes movement.”
That implies that you mean the leadership of the Yes movement, which was Alex Salmond.
Now you say: “I don’t regard Alex Salmond as belonging to the ‘extreme-left’, even if he is sometimes influenced by the views of those who do belong to it.”
Can you now tell us who on the extreme left influences the SNP leadership? Do you have any names?
You also said: “After WW2, any Serbs who expressed their concern about the ethnography of Kosovo were labelled nationalists or racists, so people tended to keep quiet about the subject.”
I asked you to back-up that statement but you haven’t. A link or two might help.
You said: “When I say extreme-left, I mean modern, western European extreme-left ideas…” Then you give feminism as a [not very convincing] example and follow that with:
“…what I don’t want to see is have the day come when local authorities cannot order a park bench without having prior meetings to decide whether the legs on the said bench show signs of gender bias. I refer you to Sweden if you think that’s not possible.”
Can you back that up with a link please?
You go on: “The majority of women in the group [Women for Independence] are not ultra-feminists, by any means, but the group is being pulled in that direction by its more extreme representatives – many of whom form part of the leadership of that group.”
Can you give back up and name names please?
You go on further: “Another example of this [extreme left] ideology would be – I recently saw a Gay Pride parade… in Oslo where floats of half-naked gay people danced with their scantily-clad children alongside them.” And “…I don’t want to live in a world where homosexuality is advertised in this way.”
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“You say [Doug] ‘a mere’ 4.4% of the British population are muslim [sic] – 4.4 is such a small digit, but if you convert it into real numbers it amounts to c.3 million muslims.[sic] That’s rather a lot…”
…………………………………………………………….
It seems a lot Skotskinorge but it is still only 4.4%, a small fraction in other words.
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“As for your (discriminatory) comment on Serbs, it’s too awful to pass much comment on.”
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I used to live in Leeds (West Yorkshire) years ago and a particular district there had many Eastern Europeans who emigrated from their own countries after the war.
Some of those groups had their own social clubs; Serbian; Polish and Latvian. The common denominator was a colour-bar to these clubs which operated right up to the 1980s.
I remember that the Serbian club also refused membership to women and they could not enter unless accompanied by a [white] male.
That was the culture of the time; I was there. I don’t know if the culture is better today but I hope so.
Dougie, you’re clearly a twat, so I’ll refrain from commenting again.
Skotskinorge says, “…so I’ll refrain from commenting again”
I do hope you’re a person of your word!
Mr. Scorgie, I’d say your work is done. 🙂
That’s it, group together nice and tight now. It’s all you people know.
Fred
20 Nov, 2014 – 9:07 am
“Fuck off and die retard cunt.”
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Retard was used in the past to describe a person with an intellectual or developmental disability. Since then, it has morphed into a slang word to mean things like stupid or idiotic.
Many people [including Fred] think it is socially acceptable to use the word in this way but the truth is, it hurts and dehumanizes those with an intellectual disability and their family and friends.
When I was at school the word spastic (descriptive of cerebral palsy) was used in the same way.
“You’re a spastic twat” for example.
Or…”Fuck off and die spastic cunt.”