This is my last comment for the year as we are off to spend Hogmanay as the guests of an Ambassador in Paris. Out of deference to my family, who have had the brunt of it these last few days, I am definitely not taking the laptop, so I will no longer be able to take part in the popular new bloodsport of proving your loyalty to the SNP by being nasty to Craig Murray.
My parting thought is that, as every year of my entire life, it has been a disastrous one for the Palestinians. Yet more land occupied, settlements built, homes destroyed, olive trees uprooted, shipping vessels sunk and yet another murderous onslaught on Gaza.
I warmly recommend this rare public appearance by Col. Larry Wilkerson, ex-Chief of Staff to Colin Powell and a fellow recipient of the Sam Adams Award for Integrity. His brief musings here on Israel and Syria come from a deep store of knowledge and a razor-sharp intellect.
Do have a wonderful celebration. The future will be good. We are closer to a transformational change in society than you may realise.
Irving opines Hitler was completely sane right until the very end, backed by amongst others documented evidence of his own doctors’ private notes. His alleged military ineptitude is not backed by facts either, he read many situations and particularly Russian tactical moves astutely, only to find out his orders had been ignored by the desk-bound army staff hierarchy, substituting their own preferred plans, plans he had demolished and accurately predicted the disastrous outcomes that would and did result from them, with which he justifiably berated their abilities and loyalty. Many of them were by the mid-point of the war working against the Nazis and for the allies, but information leaked to British intelligence immediately then was delivered to the Soviets, officially as allies, but material not intended for the Soviets also unerringly found its way to Moscow through deep penetration of Britain’s security services. German successes in radio warfare, cracking diplomatic codes of dozens of nations, routinely tapping and easily unscrambling transatlantic telephone communications even most between Churchill and Roosevelt, and a host of other channels, could be viewed having outdone the patchy successes of the GC&CS at Bletchley, the greatest successes of which, coming at highly fortuitous times, from sloppy or predictable Enigma operators’ errors, helped them tweak the routing of Atlantic convoys and mitigate their shocking losses, and aided in locating and harrying German submarines and their support vessels, without it their actual submarine detection or tracking abilities were almost non-existent.
Ishmael, I and many others I’m sure appreciate your comments, you force us to think and your meaning is always clear, however some may seek to misinterpret you. That you’re being discredited by the usual silly sods, suggests you’re hitting some of the right, sensitive, buttons and nerves that make them jump.
Anon: Your post confirms some religious people are quite barmy. I wouldn’t like to say which of the religions is the worst of them, reckon they’re all pretty much as deluded and dangerous as the next, unfortunately when under extreme stress many more turn towards religion for solace and usually half-baked guidance which deepens their plight and estranges them from their brother man. Alas there is no cure for those stricken with religion. Belief in supernatural beings or some cases the supremacy of their co-religionists must surely predispose or be a marker for erratic behaviour, irrational attitudes and their easy manipulation by crafty sorts inside and outside their cult group. Given the crap Muslims have had to put up with, I’m not surprised some would theoretically like to strike back in some abstract way at their leading persecutors, there’s only so much some could reasonably be expected to endure. What you are seeing and describing is cause and effect, and you are a component of the cause side of that terrible equation; what goes around invariably comes around, and your fear is palpable
I think the planet however has reached peak-religion, there are limited reserves of hoary old tall tales and magic books full of spells and incantations to go around as all have been mined and exploited to exhaustion and are worn out, those still in use are poor facsimile nth generation copies and their power is greatly dissipated.
Nevermind: This Allen character must have been struggling to keep a straight face when peddling such nonsense, it truly is an alternative world these types inhabit, a world colliding noisily and more often with reality, as US credibility collapses worldwide.
Whatever Assad (or his father) may or more likely than not, haven’t done (he’s thin on details here), pales somewhat alongside the destruction and genocidal scale of death which the US, UK, the lunatic fringe have themselves wrought upon Iraq next door and now via their proxy ISIS have done to Syria itself and the Syrian people. The rise of ISIS/Daesh with direct US support in the form of weapons and training, lethal and non-lethal aid from all and sundry, including Cameron’s blank cheque from UK taxpayers, to destabilise both Syria and also Iraq all over again accounts entirely for the otherwise highly improbable rise of ISIS. Bogeymen don’t just arise, they’re conjured up on demand and are ever rarely what they appear to be or the conjuror suggests.
Anon: the curious fact is that people who chastise the Muslim religion for its illiberality then proceed to become even more illiberal when talking about it.
Technicolour
“According to the polls, a third of British people support torture.”
I think 24% of British people responded that they would support ‘some torture’ if it prevented terrorism, which was low compared to other countries. A lot of people in their ignorance probably believe that waterboarding and sleep deprivation aren’t really torture. They are wrong to support any kind of torture but though mistaken, it is at least a rational conclusionto come to. Believing women should be stoned for showing a bit of leg is not.
Of course his doctors’ ‘private’ notes would say Hitler was sane. He was clearly barking.
” Irving opines Hitler was completely sane right until the very end, backed by amongst others documented evidence of his own doctors’ private notes. ”
Slight problem there in that Hitler’s doctor was a notorious quack.
” without it their actual submarine detection or tracking abilities were almost non-existent. ”
As a new year treat buy yourself one half way decent account of the Battle of the Atlantic; and then read it.
Ishmael, your point about Nazi Germany and the non-hatred of most ordinary Germans for the Jews and others that they persecuted and exterminated actually backs up my point about ordinary people being prepared to hurt others who’ve arbitrarily been classified as “enemy” or “undesirable”, or just simply “not one of us”.
Macky, Mary, RepublicofScotland and John Goss find it acceptable to insult and denigrate (ie emotionally or psychologically attack) Habbabkuk, Anon and Resident Dissident, and Resident Dissident, Habbabkuk and Anon find it acceptable to insult and denigrate John Goss, Macky, Mary and RepublicofScotland.
These that I’ve named are not the only ones; I often feel the urge myself, and I try to overcome it.
. . . . .
You are right that there are differences between insults on a blog and violence committed by a state, but the differences are of degree and of societal acceptance or legitimacy rather than of principle. When a state commits violence, it makes use of the innate human tendency to inflict hurt; it amplifies it by putting the hurters together so that each one’s violence legitimises and normalises the others’ – see the Stanford Prison experiment, etc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
This is why enforcement of and adherence to human rights law matters so much – if abuse is permitted to increase it can viciously spiral out of control.
Technicolour
“Anon: the curious fact is that people who chastise the Muslim religion for its illiberality then proceed to become even more illiberal when talking about it.”
I’m not chastising the Muslim religion or Muslims, Technicolour, though much Islamic teaching does leave a lot to be desired, I’m sure you would agree, if you’re not completely blinkered.
REALLY Sticks in my craw, This Chomsky’n “Get your own hall” argument…
Privilege defending privative, and group-think.
Yes, it was a rather loaded question. Thanks for the clarification. I don’t believe that the majority of Muslims believe it’s “right to be stoned for showing a bit of leg” for a second: and I’ve travelled.
Anon; “No, obviously I didn’t compile it myself. Whatever the obsessions of the person who did, the facts contained still stand. Posting it required no effort at all”
Well perhaps not so surprising, you don’t seem too keen in revealing where you lifted this from. The “facts contained” actually don’t mean much even as a mass generalisation, each poll needs to be carefully examined for built in assumptions, missing contexts etc, etc
Does apparent terrorist support from others not interest you ?
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/31/5955077/israeli-support-for-the-gaza-war-is-basically-unanimous
Technicolour; “Hmm, maybe, not really, but still, significantly higher than the 95 percent you guoted *in favour* of violence2
?? 70% is higher than 95% !!!??
Hitler had all his marbles. Sane does not mean normal. If you believe Hitler was insane then by law he was not responsible for his actions.
I think most systems which tell people what to do ‘leave a lot to be desired’; which doesn’t mean I don’t honour the good in them. Anon, the Muslim religion, like the Christian religion, or Buddhist, or Hindu, contains moments of inspiration and kindness. It would be silly and destructive to ignore that.
Resident Dissident, 11:46 pm
Yes, this is the approach I’d like you to take with John Goss, for instance. Work out what you can agree upon, and proceed to explore from there. When it breaks down, regroup at your most recent point of agreement.
Macky
I have no interest where it came from. Unless you can show that the information is incorrect then that is of no relevance.
More from Oliver Stone: glad he really gets it about what’s happening in Ukraine:
http://rt.com/news/219211-stone-ukraine-us-policy/
I’m sure RD would have an alternative hypothesis, inspired by the NYT.
Clark
“Ishmael, your point about Nazi Germany and the non-hatred of most ordinary Germans for the Jews and others that they persecuted and exterminated actually backs up my point about ordinary people being prepared to hurt others who’ve arbitrarily been classified as “enemy” or “undesirable”, or just simply “not one of us””
That wasn’t Ishmael’s original point, nor is it the point of the Stanford Prison experiment, nor is it the point of the Milgram experiment, nor is it Arrendt’s point, nor is it Bauman’s point.
The keyword here is “bureaucracy”.
Perhaps if you revisit these works you’ll understand better the transactions taking place here and not let these bigots so easily off the hook.
Clark
“Yes, this is the approach I’d like you to take with John Goss, for instance. Work out what you can agree upon, and proceed to explore from there. When it breaks down, regroup at your most recent point of agreement.”
I don’t think you’ll get anywhere if you speak to him like a child in a classroom, Clark 🙂
“ordinary people being prepared to hurt others”
But what im saying is that’s not really a proven thing. What MAY have been proven is some people are ok to let others do it, and in the dark so to speak, and that’s without even considering the truth of what they are meant to be endorsing.
ie That it somehow gains truth, or makes safe. saves lives. etc
I wouldn’t think anyone who could conceive a hatred/grudge towards millions of people and encourage/theaten other people into killing them, was sane.
And most people are ok with “hurting” others, it’s just a fact of a messy life, most do it to some extent sometimes, But we must live on.
This is not the same thing.
“I wouldn’t think anyone who could conceive a hatred/grudge towards millions of people and encourage/theaten other people into killing them, was sane.”
Really.
So our leaders are all insane?
Is that your explanation?
Certainly.
More work needed then.
Anon; “I have no interest where it came from. Unless you can show that the information is incorrect then that is of no relevance”
Yet enough interest to find it & post it here; I doubt very much that many of those “polls” meet basic academic surveying rigor, so it’s your overall attempted mass generalisation that is of no relevance whatsoever, apart from what it may say about you of course.
You take someone, Just a human being, who is totally helpless, totally under physical domination. Then persist to cause cruel and unusual harm.
Yes it’s disturbed behaviour individually of a certian type, some in high places who push it, but very few are nuts. And it’s not that that does it, it’s following that does the damage.
Who think’s, as human beings, it’s a good or nessary thing to be torturing eachother. Looked at it that way it’s a kind of insane madness.
Oh, always.
No point in attempting to invent a rather poor wheel when a perfectly servicable one is already in existence.
I’ll try to make it simple.
Those who inflicted pain in the Milgram experiment would not ordinarily do so in their everyday lives, generally.
Something else had to be present for them to do so. That’s the point.
And it’s the point of all those other works I mentioned above.
Please read them and learn what they’re showing us.
This discussion has been a travesty of all the academic research into this area.
Only Ishmael got it correct originally, but then for some reason he fluffed.
Perhaps it was a Milgram moment…
“Only Ishmael got it correct originally, but then for some reason he fluffed.”
No I never “fluffed”, it don’t ever happen. (:
Well, thanks to the Milgram experiment, we now all know that if someone ever asks you to inflict pain on someone else, don’t, because it’s appalling.
And so we progress.
“Yet enough interest to find it & post it here.”
I googled “Surveys of British Muslims” and it was the first result.
“I doubt very much that many of those polls meet basic academic ic surveying rigor”
They seem to me to be pretty standard, representing a wide variety of media from the Telegraph to Russia Today. I have no reason to doubt their findings. Perhaps you would point out some of the issues you have?
“So it’s your overall attempted mass generalisation that is of no relevance whatsoever”
No mass generalisations. As has been pointed out, extremist Muslims are in the minority in most of the polls. What is worrying and very relevant is the size of the majorities
Thanks