This is my last comment for the year as we are off to spend Hogmanay as the guests of an Ambassador in Paris. Out of deference to my family, who have had the brunt of it these last few days, I am definitely not taking the laptop, so I will no longer be able to take part in the popular new bloodsport of proving your loyalty to the SNP by being nasty to Craig Murray.
My parting thought is that, as every year of my entire life, it has been a disastrous one for the Palestinians. Yet more land occupied, settlements built, homes destroyed, olive trees uprooted, shipping vessels sunk and yet another murderous onslaught on Gaza.
I warmly recommend this rare public appearance by Col. Larry Wilkerson, ex-Chief of Staff to Colin Powell and a fellow recipient of the Sam Adams Award for Integrity. His brief musings here on Israel and Syria come from a deep store of knowledge and a razor-sharp intellect.
Do have a wonderful celebration. The future will be good. We are closer to a transformational change in society than you may realise.
@Ishmael. Yes, good point. By now the Rouble must be undervalued, so it would make sense to buy. But I guess that would be unpatriotic.
The opinion polls are not wrong, or rubbish, or fabricated. What is wrong is the way they were misrepresented by thereligionofpeace.com for instance the implication that large proportions of the populations of other countries support attacks on “Americans” in general, when in fact the polls had asked specifically about support for attacks upon US troops occupying other countries.
Tony M, Habbabkuk, and Anon;
pretty obviously Meg and Jives have been trolling, so it’s probably best not to feed such behaviour, unless you want more of the same.
Dam Clark, I though that was the plan, gang up on America.
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/1/1/matt_taibbi_and_the_9_billion
As long ago as 2010
“Deeply deplores the decision by the outgoing President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, posthumously to award Stepan Bandera, a leader of the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) which collaborated with Nazi Germany, the title of ‘National Hero of Ukraine’; hopes, in this regard, that the new Ukrainian leadership will reconsider such decisions and will maintain its commitment to European values;”
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=MOTION&reference=B7-2010-0120&language=EN
But that was 2010, Tim. The EU has clearly changed a lot since then. I don’t know why, but policy now seems to manufactured in Washington, not Brussels. Perhaps that was the price of keeping the Euro afloat?
Regional Map of Ukraine by language, showing clearly why it is now in such a pickle…
http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4808810/Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.png
Those with an interest in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill (see my comment above at 3.38 on 1 Jan) may want to scroll down this link http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmagenda/fb150105.htm
to see the details of the Report and Third reading stages in the Commons Main Chamber on 6 and 7 January. Worth encouraging MPs to remove or modify the proposed restrictions on travel and on inviting “extremist” speakers (such as those calling on Obama to respect Habeus corpus?) to address groups of students (or appear on BBC programmes)
Ishmael, 9:44 am:
Ishmael, I share your concern about this. It’s a sad fact that many people are so convinced of the correctness of their own world view (“ego”) that they let the end justify the means in their attempts to propagate that view, and thus descend to attempting to enrage their “opposition” in order to discredit their argument. But that’s a problem in human nature rather than the blog format.
It does serve some purpose. For instance, on this thread we have the example of how a set of factual opinion polls can be misrepresented to suggest nearly the opposite of what they really show – and even more importantly that the person posting the misrepresentation didn’t even notice the distortion. That highlights a flaw in human thinking; the sort of flaw that can and does lead to calamity on a massive scale.
Various people should draw breath, and ask themselves if they really want their world to be destroyed in conflict and strife. They probably won’t – today or tomorrow – but maybe eventually, hopefully while there’s still time…
Ishmael, for you, I suggest you create a Wikipedia editor’s account. Blogs like this draw in links from diverse sources, but the discussion inevitably turns into a slanging match. Over at Wikipedia there are strong rules and a large community of moderators to enforce them. Instead of various lengthening threads, contributors have to focus on individual articles in a process of refinement and consensus-building. You can take the information that surfaces in the disorganised arguments at blogs like this, and build it into something far more usable. And sometimes it’s very rewarding; I found myself correcting the account of the first manned moon landing, the first words spoken from the surface of our moon – my little contribution to the recording of history in my own lifetime.
Iain Orr, thank you for that important information – that’s the sort of thing this blog is useful for.
@Iain: Unfortunately, there is not enough detail on the agenda, and no links to other docs. However, if what you say is true, this would be a nasty piece of newlegislation that runs completely counter to the purpose of an institution of higher learning. Showing my age I know, but I went to university in the mid-70s in London when the IRA were ranking up their campaign. There were no legislation changes in that era, although plenty of bombs went off, and quite a few people were maimed and injured. The IRA campaign was very sensibly dealt with as a police matter, as you would expect in a civilised country.
In my opinion, rather than civilised, the government of this country has, since 9/11 progressively become hysterical. The threat, as with the IRA, is tiny, and the reaction is completely out of proportion.
Clark, you are quite wrong. Those who are “convinced of the correctness of their own world view” are those who have ignored, denied, or attacked me personally for posting a series of facts regarding various attitudes of a sizeable minority of British Muslims.
I think these people are, as Craig would say, either evil, or quite extraordinarily thick, because they have allowed their singular world view, namely that the West is the source of all evil in the world, and that any evil not committed by the West is nevertheless caused directly or indirectly by the West, to completely divorce them from reality. Thus, one of the first responses I received amounted to, “But what about the Jews?”, and then, “But what about the British or Americans?”, followed by Macky’s attacks on me and the source, Jives’ and Nevermind’s personal attacks on me, and Technicolour just coming straight out and blaming the ‘West’ after her whatabouttery failed. You seem to think you are above all this, Clark, but I’d say you are not immune from the tendency to deny reality when it doesn’t suit you yourself.
Who was it who described it as the most disgusting thing ever posted on this site? That was my personal fave 🙂
I expect that you know we are ‘on the road to a stronger economy’. Agent Cameron today standing in front of a graphic that looked like a post war Shell or Esso advert.
Interesting: posting Clark’s excellent research again. It doesn’t wash, to just lie and say the links were fine, you know.
Then in Anon’s list we have this:
61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
“attacks on Americans, attacks on Americans, attacks on Americans…”
NO! FALSE!
These figures refer to approval of attacks on US troops in Middle Eastern countries, and “al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.” referred to is that al-Qaeda want US forces withdrawn.
Anon, this is so flawed; why on Earth did you post it? Did you not check it yourself? Did you hope it would be accepted without scrutiny? What you’ve done is a case of “lies, damn lies and statistics”.
The world IS being destroyed by conflict and strife.
Welby and his cohort are safe in their palaces and vicarages whilst Muslims have been shredded and burned. That is not an exaggeration. Bliar/Bushco created the maelstrom which continues to this day.
Clark, thank you for both these posts. I agree that it’s worth making the effort to learn how to amend and improve Wikipedia entries – and following their firm rules on providing public documentation for facts and opinions that are in any way controversial.
My post about the Counter-Terrorism and Security bills had a mistake. My final phrase should have read “(or appear on BBC programmes?).” The Bill (as I understand it – I have not seen a full text) does not specifically refer to BBC or other media. My bit in brackets was simply meant to hint at how the bill’s provisions might be [mis]interpreted once passed into law.
“Technicolour just coming straight out and blaming the ‘West’ after her whatabouttery failed”
Tsk, tsk, I did no such thing. Try a good, honest counter-argument to the suggestion that our government stops interfering in other countries, please.
Even very small percentages can be worrying. For instance, 6% of British Muslims supported the 7/7 terrorist attacks. That is 100,000 people supporting blowing up innocent people on public transport.
Technicolour
“Tsk, tsk I did no such thing”
So when you wrote:
“Anon, the UK has to stop meddling with people. We don’t have to *do* anything, we just have to stop. Imagine the peace”
This was not intended as a rebuttal to my post?
By the way, as a feminist what do you make of this
“But that’s a problem in human nature rather than the blog format.”
It’s certainly a problem some people have, and who does not get dragged into it again and again.
I did not say there was a ‘problem’ with the blog format, I suggested how it may be changed to de-emphasize those trying to disrupt. I don’t see how involving other people more (who are also involved in human rights issues) is an issue. Not when you consider the extra work, ie that won’t be put into ‘not cutting slack’. Or how it would create a more inclusive positive environment. Or that it could make it more popular with new ideas. Drown them out.
I don’t care about “my contribution”. I care about helping people work on similar things.
Fact is craig is totally out on a limb. Your embattled by negative forces. Work on very little that is beyond saying some stuff. Fighting off the trolls. Make some clever comment, chin up. Bit of history? Guess I could not give a monkeys. I’d rather be part of nothing that feels ok than ‘something’ that’s little but pretence, and hostility.
Ps. I do think though, taking about blogs generally, it is an issue. And imo it’s a quite good idea.
If your fine to go on like this ok. Seems crazy to me.
Pew Research (2013): Large majorities of Muslims favor Sharia. Among those who do, stoning women for adultery is favored by 89% in Pakistanis, 85% in Afghanistan, 81% in Egypt, 67% in Jordan, ~50% in ‘moderate’ Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, 58% in Iraq, 44% in Tunisia, 29% in Turkey, and 26% in Russia.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
???
Question marks indeed.
The question:
Q54. Some people think that if a woman engages in premarital sex or adultery it is justified for family members to end her life in order to protect the family� honor. Do you personally feel that this practice is:
and it was answered NEVER JUSTIFIED by a majority in all Islamic countries apart, very sadly, from war torn Iraq and Afghanistan.
Tech
“Well, away with you & your prophesies of doom.”
You simply don’t understand the academic research, and that ignorance or complacency is itself a prophecy of continuing doom.
Arrendt, Bauman, Milgram, Stanford prison etc etc up to the present day all show the same thing.
You don’t need evil people for evil to occur.
Craig’s own experience is illustrative of the point.
His colleagues who were themselves complcit in the evil are not considered, nor would they consider themselves evil, but yet without them evil would not have taken place.
They go home to their families and friends, take the kids to school, go to church, laugh and joke, mow the lawn, make love…
That is the banality of evil.
It ain’t about goodies and baddies, I’m afraid. That’s much too easy and is unfortunately what the ignorant still assume.
That assumption has of course itself been used for further evil.
The research is saying something very different.
Please read it and inform yourself.
Anon, the good honest counter-argument to the suggestion that the UK stops meddling in other countries, please?
See on the one hand you want anyone to be able to comment. But without forcing people to use their real identity, or banning people, the only way I can see is to expand.
But blogs (as is) are …..awfull.
@ Clark – If only somebody would tell us what turned the WTCs to dust, in the meantime we goyim will have the yarmulkers (anon,etc) v ragheads (macky,etc) boring us with endless statistics/counter-punches/links starting from the King David Hotel to Rigby and the ISIS beheadings. Once who done 911 is known, we will definitely know who the bad guys are, the Senate report on 911 has 28 redacted pages where it says it was the Saudis?!
As for the Telegraph/You Gov survey; it interviewed 526 people, and extrapolated that to cover 2.6 million people. It did not, clearly, interview children, or babies, or people in care homes, or any number of people who are Muslim and might also be expected to have a voice for peace. Incidentally, I talked to someone who at the time felt the bombings were justified. He had, of course, been living through the unedifying nightmare of watching the country he was born in bomb his family and friends abroad for years and for no good reason. He still changed his mind after a bit, and agreed that violence in return was never going to solve anything: but then he was a peaceful soul, who would never have hurt anyone himself.