I put Straw, Blair and Blears in the dock for torture. My article on the leader page of the Mail on Sunday.
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@Ba’al: Tht’s why having David Miliband as leader would have been so damaging… with someone who did not vote for war as leader, labour still stand a chance. Greens also ought to make something of this: Caroline Lucas was the first to come out publicly and call Blair’s actions illegal under International Law.
KOWN: “I’m haunted by the thought of that poor bloke dying of hypothermia, chained naked to the concrete floor and left there”
I think there was another Afghan, very early in TWOT, was was doused with water and left shackled overnight outside in freezing temperature, who also died of hypothermia; things that stick in my mind, are reports such as a female US officier egging on soldiers under her command to take running kicks at the genitals of shackled Iraqi prisoners, and those “I love to make a grown man piss himself” & “I love to hear a man beg me to kill him”, quotes from Charles Graner, one of the Abu Ghraib abusers, but the thing that haunts me most is this image;
http://milesaway44105.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/mn_iraq9.jpg
The contrast of the horrid appearance of the father, with that massive black hood, & the child who is clearly seeking to be comforted by him, is very poignant; imagine the distress of a child seeing his own father, the ones who always protects him, being made so helpless, not even to make reasuring eye or face contact.
Oh dear! Politics around the type of inquiry:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/11293552/MPs-should-judge-the-merits-of-torture-claims.html
If you think support for the 2003 war is going to be a factor next year, you’re deluding yourself, I fear. As usual, it will be about how many sweeties the contenders can hand out, and whether anyone in a swing constituency believes them.
BTW Alan Johnson:
#
Voted moderately for use of UK military forces in combat operations overseas
Voted very strongly for the Iraq war
Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war*
Voted very strongly for replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system…
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10314/alan_johnson/kingston_upon_hull_west_and_hessle/votes
If Blair and Straw are by any mischance hauled before a committee, though, what then? They’ll stonewall their way through it, any documents indicating their complicity will have gone walkies, and can you see the troughers referring the matter to the Hague in the happy event of Blair’s and Straw’s endorsement of torture being adequately proven? I can’t. Imagine the glee of the Tories at Question time if that happened.
*ie. repeatedly.
“Greens also ought to make something of this: Caroline Lucas was the first to come out publicly and call Blair’s actions illegal under International Law.” And if they do, will the BBC and other media deem to report it? Or frame it in a way designed to portray her as a “bleeding heart” naïf, with security “experts” gravely telling us how necessary war crimes are if we are to win wars (true enough – exactly why we should never, ever go to war, since it gives spurious legality to every crime). We live in a culture which explicitly defines maturity in terms of willingness to kill, after all. Not perhaps a vote winner for the Greens, I am sorry to say.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jul/07/war-crimes-legal-powers-straw
I’d love to see him hoist by his own petard, though….
KOWN; “Can anyone explain why we had to ask the Americans what it was we asked them to redact from their report?”
Ahh! Now you’re highlighting the sham of our “democracy”, being the difference between the Deep State & phony front of Parliament.
Not as bad as you think, Briar. I keep mentioning the YouGov survey so here it is:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/12/11/people-in-Britain-divided-over-use-of-torture
The 34% would not exactly be The Greens natural constituency anyway, so alienating them further would probably be no real loss.
@Mike14 Dec, 2014 – 9:58 pm. I followed the BBC link and they (BBC) mentioned that Turkey is (still) busy arresting its deep-state within a state. That’s probably true, and recognises that the Beeb occasionally tells a truth – perhaps whilst trying to force-feed us something else…
reading further in Turkish on these deep-states within states (that helpfully even Rt Hon John Whitaker “Jack” Straw mentioned in the Torture context) led me to this Turkish quote: (about Short Roman Swords & ‘counter-guerillas’)
So the Turkish authorities themselves think that Greece’s deep-state is called “B-8”, Belgium has “SDRA-8”, Germany has “Gehlen”, “Schwert” in Austria, France “Rose des vents” (compass wind), Spain “GAL” and in the UK our deep-state was/is called “Secret British Network”, which goooogle, in its one literary reference to SBN/”C”&MI6 capitalises it as ‘secret British network’
All of this is by now open knowledge, hardly worth the trolls’ efforts to worry about this subject.
what might be a worry to our still extant deep-states – is this highly interesting open technology movement – iamthecavalry.org inspired by this TED talk Corman: swimming with sharks
“What kind of an idiot gets in the water with an Apex predator?”
I can see why I’m getting increased IC generated targeted malware at home & work, key ideas like iamthecavalry would seem to be the antithesis of deep-states and torture-enabled/enabling-regimes, so I urge everyone except the trolls to check them out! before our “sBn” digitally rule forever…
Facts, Urgency & Demand Visibility
Thanks, Peacewisher, for these reminders of how soiled D Miliband and H Blears are; also the disturbing YouGov poll on British attitudes to torture. I have no idea how one could translate the poll into any coherent statement of “British values”. It would be a mistake, however, to take at face value approval of torture (or the use of “information” elicited by torture) for utilitarian reasons. Many people really see torture as “deserved punishment” but most surveys are so worded that they shroud from open recognition this fallen angel of our nature.
There’s evidence of that in this thread, in the wish for Jack Straw to be rendered to Libya and tortured there, as was expressed by Farrukh at 6.47 pm on 14 December (on which I have already commented). There was no suggestion there that a justification for torturing Straw would be to extract information. What’s desperately needed is for him to be cross-examined under oath by the sharpest forensic lawyers available. That falls outside the definition of torture, but it is what Straw must fear more than physical torture or being murdered by a relative of those whose torture to death he has facilitated.
That is a very good point, Ian. People do tend to associate torture with punishment for dastardly deeds, rather than gathering information. However, that in itself is simplistic, unless the person has done something bad and is not just in the wrong place at the wrong time. On one level, torture still brings to mind Monty Python and the Spanish Inquisition.
Yes, the court room is the tried and tested method for getting at the truth, but if that is the case how did OJ Simpson and Rebecca Brooks get found not guilty?
like all here, very pleased for Craig! always a good omen when those with honesty, courage and persistence, abused as a matter of course by a corrupt and moribund establishement, are given a massive validation by an uncontrollable outbreak of truth. well done, Craig. and if you do stand for parliament, this should play well on the hustings. there is a growing appetite for truth in this land. there is a widespread feeling now, amongst ordinary folk, that they’ve gone too far…
footnote: slightly off-topic? not sure…
40,000 Kenyans accuse UK of abuse in second Mau Mau case
castration and inhuman treatment among claims of 41,000 Kenyans seeking damages
Grauniad 29.10.14
Macky
‘Ahh! Now you’re highlighting the sham of our “democracy”, being the difference between the Deep State & phony front of Parliament.’
W..w..what, you’re not suggesting our sparkly politicians are just puppets put in place to sell decisions taken elsewhere by an unaccountable elite, are you? Surely not!
Some good news to report at last. Lamothe (prime minister) has resigned in Haiti soon to be followed, hopefully by President Martelly. This has been brought about by protests on the streets of Port-au-Prince by those not allowed to vote (the majority) in elections. If Martelly clings on and elections are not held before January, ruling by decree, protests could get more violent. This little Christmas present could return Haiti back to the democracy it once was before western money paved the way for rule by decree since which time it has been the most corrupt of governments. If sustained it will be a great victory for the people. And not the first. For very good reason Haitians don’t celebrate Columbus Day.
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/10/13/monster-celebrate-columbus-day/
Even this is a whitewash;
http://picturevip.com/x/images/2014/12/15/p7eNU.jpg
“Bad Intelligence” masks that torturing sadists don’t give a damn if a person is innocent or not, (actually sadists probably get more enjoyment if the victim is innocent), as the main purpose of the torturing was to extract false confessions to retroactively justify Neocon criminal policies.
David Holden, I don’t think the British torture of the Mau Mau is off topic at all. And while we’re on the subject, how come in all the recent furore no one seems to have mentioned the CIA role in the Phoenix Programme in Vietnam, during which many tens of thousands were tortured to death?
From Wikipedia:
‘According to one former CIA officer few of the detainees who were interrogated survived—most of them were tortured to death, and those that survived the torture sessions were generally killed afterwards. The torture was usually carried out by South Vietnamese with the CIA and special forces playing a supervisory role.’
The list of tortures used is stomach turning. Rape by eels?
David Holden, KOWN, I recall our press referred to the Kenyans we tortured as “Mau Mau terrorists” as the US press referred to the Viet Cong they genocided as terrorists. What is the meaning of the word terrorist? I don’t mean the dictionary definition. Enemy? Not one of us? What?
Well done. Its funny old world when its the Mail who delivers….its embarrassing to be seen reading it, but is only 60p and has had a number of scoops. So yes hats off to the Mail on Sunday.
I have been to the Soviet Union in the grey times, I wandered (alone?) around MockBa, I talked to people who struggled. People did disappear, torture was rife.
Therefore when I read a nice article in the New York Times, which covered similar ground, I was interested – except the author wrote the wrong ending – he went on from a great start to vilify Putin, which certainly might be the correct thing to do, but I think he missed something. When I read his article, (I’m not a famous film-maker but an amateur news-junkie and ICT enthusiast), I could see a different ending.
so here’s his start – and my end
Peter Pomerantsev, a British television producer, is the author of “Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible: The Surreal Heart of the New Russia.” wrote: December 12, 2014 NYT Russia’s Ideology: There Is No Truth
snip… all above true..
Peter then goes on to say how Putin invent[ed] a new strain of authoritarianism etc etc … yawn, maybe, whatever, probably true – but this isn’t the story that your opening sentences bring to focus
in fact, in my talks with people who previously lived the above quoted hard soviet life, they see complete disturbing parallels with the direction that our modern western society is heading. That UK Parliament & UK Establishment & 1% have become new politburo & nomenklatura, that BBC is completely the state TV organ, and that most of the western press have become 70’s Pravda & Izvestia. MoS excluded, apparently, occasionally!
I meet people now who are very worried about life in the near future, they see the many current security theatre activities as trying to hide the probably illegal UK security services operations; and UKUSA trying to hide a ‘live’ system for state control of the populace MUCH WORSE THAN THE KGB & the STASI could have developed. USA have actually talked to the KGB, now they are allegedly trying to improve on KGB techniques, do things better! I have friends who now have had to change their behaviour, self-censoring their private correspondence – as it is no longer private, hiding many things – starting to live, yes, in that new UK soviet-state of “lying” in order to survive, to work, to eat.
I can see why pointing off-stage & hissing to a panto threat might be preferable to confronting the UKUSA security state, but it will not solve the boot-on-the-face/forever problem that we face, no matter how bad Vladimir V. actually is. I’m personally not blowing whistles, I’m not a referee, I’d like to live in an era of balance – when many around are seeming tilting things as hard as they can?
YouKnowMyName 2.45pm,
Excellent post.
I,too,know many law-abiding people now who are taking counter measures in daily activities simply because they believe the security matrix is an out of control and ubiquitous danger.
I also hear many everyday conversations where people-often younger people too-are self-censoring with phrases such as “you can’t do/say/email/text that now dude”.
A culture of fear and paranoia indeed-and not from our supposedly fiendishly spectral enemies but from our own supposed protectors.
Very sad and worrying.
Jives; “I also hear many everyday conversations where people-often younger people too-are self-censoring with phrases such as “you can’t do/say/email/text that now dude”.”
Yes, terrorism works, which is why it’s so popular be it extremists or Governments.
KOWN; “‘W..w..what, you’re not suggesting our sparkly politicians are just puppets put in place to sell decisions taken elsewhere by an unaccountable elite, are you? Surely not!”
Sssh ! You’ll set off the barking mad pro-Establishment trolls, snapping & yelping, & foaming at the mouth !
Fred
14 Dec, 2014 – 9:20 pm
“They [The Daily Mail] are also fond of printing pictures of 16 year old heiresses sunbathing in scanty bikinis.”
………………………………………………………………………..
How do you know Fred?
A culture of fear and paranoia indeed-and not from our supposedly fiendishly spectral enemies but from our own supposed protectors.
Clearly Jives and in concert with Craig Murray’s article which lifts the lid on the UK’s role in the human rights abuses, the Australian secret service ISIS, sorry ASIS, hooked up with ‘Group 13’ and hatched the self styled Islamic cleric ‘Lindt’ plot starring ‘Sheikh Haron’ the Iranian lacky and easy mark.
Watch out UK and France et al. as Israel blasts Switzerland for acceding to Palestinians with Geneva Convention meeting we have many more patsies in the bag tuned to our needs.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11374445
John Goss
Good luck with your search for a definition of terrorism. Tricky one. If the local population in Iraq who attack our soldiers are terrorists then so are the French Resistance, right? Oops.
Here’s mine:
“Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich.”— Peter Ustinov
“They [The Daily Mail] are also fond of printing pictures of 16 year old heiresses sunbathing in scanty bikinis.”
………………………………………………………………………..
How do you know Fred? ”
Notoriety I expect. Just run a search for “Daily Mail older then her years”.
OK so this child isn’t wearing a bikini and is 15 not 16 but you get the general tone of their approach.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2333105/Kylie-Jenner-15-looks-older-years-revealing-outfit-supports-friend-Jaden-Smith-After-Earth-premiere.html
One reason (only one) I won’t soil my hands on the Mail and certainly won’t hand over any money to them.
Kempe; “I won’t soil my hands on the Mail and certainly won’t hand over any money to them.”
Yet you will “soil your hands” in going to the trouble of using a search engine to find & access an image & report from the very same Mail, to support an notoriety that didn’t really need supporting if the paper was indeed notorious as you say.
What are you wittering on about?
Doug seemed to be unaware of the Mail’s notoriety in this respect. I provided some evidence.
Kempe; “Doug seemed to be unaware of the Mail’s notoriety in this respect. I provided some evidence”
If that was yor perception of Doug comment to Fred, than that really explains a lot about your superfluous posts on this Blog, and people who make a unnecessary point of bragging of their prim & proper self-righteousness whilst posting evidence of the exact opposite, do tend to attract my bemused attention.
Great article! Thanks Craig.