The Independent have Jack Straw well and truly cornered:
Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Craig Murray, who was sacked as UK ambassador to Uzbekistan in 2004 after alleging that Britain used intelligence obtained by the CIA under torture, said he attended a meeting at the Foreign Office where he was told that “it was not illegal for us to use intelligence from torture as long as we did not carry out the torture ourselves” and claimed this policy came directly from Mr Straw.
The former Foreign Secretary said: “At all times I was scrupulous in seeking to carry out my duties in accordance with the law. I hope to be able to say more about this at an appropriate stage in the future.”
I hope so too, and I hope that the appropriate time is either at the Old Bailey or The Hague.
Straw has climbed down a bit from his days of power and glory, when he told the House of Commons, immediately after sacking me, that there was no such thing as the CIA extraordinary rendition programme and its existence was “Mr Murray’s opinion.” He no longer claims it did not exist and he no longer claims I am a fantasist. He now merely claims he was not breaking the law.
His claim of respect for the law is a bit dubious in the light of Sir Michael Wood’s evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry. Wood said that as Foreign Office Legal Adviser, he and his elite team of in-house FCO international lawyers unanimously advised Straw the invasion of Iraq would be an illegal war of aggression. Straw’s response? He wrote to the Attorney General requesting that Sir Michael be dismissed and replaced. And forced Goldsmith to troop out to Washington and get alternative advice from Bush’s nutjob Republican neo-con lawyers.
Jack Straw did not have any desire to act legally. He had a desire to be able to mount a legal defence of his illegal actions. That is a different thing.
Should any of us live to see the publication of the Chilcot Report, this will doubtless be clear, though probably as a footnote to page 862 of Annex VII. That is how the Westminster establishment works.
The SNP has weighed in on the side of the angels:
Revelations by the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan of the UK’s knowledge and acceptance of torture must see those involved answer questions on what happened.
In an article in the Mail on Sunday, Mr Murray reveals that he attended a meeting at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office where he was told that “it was not illegal for us to use intelligence from torture as long as we did not carry out the torture ourselves” and revealed that this policy came directly from Jack Straw.
Mr Murray also reveals that “there was a deliberate policy of not writing down anything… because there should not be evidence of the policy.”
Craig Murray also states that “for the past year the British Ambassador in Washington and his staff have regularly been lobbying the US authorities not to reveal facts about the UK’s involvement in the CIA torture programme” and claims that is one of the reasons the full Senate report has not been published.
The SNP has called for a full judicial inquiry to be set up as a matter of urgency to get to get to the truth of who knew what and when.
Commenting, SNP Westminster Leader Angus Robertson MP said:
“Mr Murray’s revelation of the attitude taken by then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw only adds to the urgency with which we need a full judicial inquiry.
“Craig Murray’s article lifts the lid on the UK’s role in the human rights abuses that the US Senate has reported on and there can be no more attempts to avoid answering the tough questions that have been posed.
“Clearly answers are needed just as much from the politicians who led us at the time as from those directly involved in what was going on. The need for an independent judicial inquiry is now clear for all to see.
“It is also long past time that the findings of the Chilcot inquiry were published and there can be no more delays to that report being made public.
“There needs to be a full judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of the UK’s involvement in rendition flights that passed through UK territory and the UK’s wider knowledge of the abuses that the Senate has revealed.”
Craig Murray’s revelations can be viewed on page 25 of today’s Mail on Sunday
But with Malcolm Rifkind being promoted everywhere by the BBC to push his cover-up, it remains an uphill struggle.
“A spokesman for Mr Blair’s office said the ex-premier believed torture of suspects in the war on terror was not only “totally unacceptable” but “counter-productive”.”
“A spokesman for Mr Blair’s office said: “For the avoidance of doubt, Tony Blair has always been opposed to the use of torture, has always said so publicly and privately, has never condoned its use and – as is shown by internal government documentation already made public – thinks it is totally unacceptable.
“He believes the fight against radical Islamism is a fight about values, and acting contrary to those values – as in the use of torture – is therefore not just wrong but counter-productive.” ”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11294571/Tony-Blair-condemns-torture-in-wake-of-CIA-report.html
Even the premisses are fictions.
“Err, there’s no mention of ““Malvinas/Falklands” !!”
Have a look at the context, Macky, and stop making an ass of yourself.
Here, I’ll give you a hand.
This is what John was responding to
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/31406/#comment-482980
There is some shit even the EU will not eat:
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-12/cp140178en.pdf
The (General)Court (of the European Union) annuls, on procedural grounds, the Council measures maintaining Hamas on the European list of terrorist organisations.
But they’re still embargoed.
The Senate report on torture has an Israeli Supreme Court decision approving torture under certain circumstances used in a draft Department of Justice memo from a month or two after 9/11 on how torture might be justified. The DOJ memo actually uses the word “torture”.
Walter Pincus has a new column in the Washington Post, Tortured roots of enhanced interrogations, mentioning another early case of the Israeli example helping to lead to U.S. torture shortly after 9/11:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/08/tony-blair-human-rights-torture
(2009)
Tony Blair was “appalled” when it was first revealed, some five years ago, that Iraqi prisoners were being tortured in Abu Ghraib. “Nobody underestimates how wrong this is or how wrong this will seem to be,” said the then prime minister….
…As for Tony Blair, he did underestimate how wrong it was. He was never quite appalled enough about torture to remonstrate publicly with his ally in the White House as the Bush administration betrayed the west’s best values and the very causes of human rights and the rule of law that they were supposed to be fighting for in Iraq and Afghanistan. If there is any evidence that Tony Blair used his private face time with George W Bush to protest about what was being perpetrated in the names of America and Britain, I have never come across it
More from Fantasyland.
Looks like their story is coming together though.
“Hillary Clinton: torture is wrong and ‘yes, black lives matter'”
Interesting the extent to which acceptance of their story requires complete ignorance of long term history, recent history and even current events.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/17/hillary-clinton-torture-is-wrong-and-yes-black-lives-matter
Someone should tell Mary that it’s not very polite to refer to others in the third person, in their presence, particularly in such derogatory terms.
I wonder if Mary knows what a “troll” actually is ?
There are people on this board who debate one another. To dismiss those tending to a particular position as all “trolls” is, frankly, idiotic.
That’s like the statement: “I always lie.” It contradicts itself.
“I wonder if Mary knows what a “troll” actually is ?”
__________________________
Do you live under a bridge?
“Or, to save people scrolling, John’s original comment is here
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/31406/#comment-483010
Dreoilin, I knew about that comment. As you can see it says nothing about the indigeneous people of the Falklands being driven out by the Brits. It was about former colonial invasions of Argentina to which it referred. If some gormless twonk wants to interperet it as that who am I to stop him. If I recall correctly I made it quite clear by mentioning the film “The Mission” in a later comment, but I’m not going looking for it. Even in that thread it was Noddy trying to divert those who largely stay on topic, like he is in this thread, which is incidentally about torture. So sorry, no apology.
Some more re Israel FAO the troll.
Wednesday, 17 December 2014
IOP newsletter headlines – 15 December 2014:
Night home invasions: Israeli troops kill resident (20)
Israeli soldiers beat up and hospitalise boy (14)
Occupation settler vehicle runs over and hospitalises 8-year-old child
More night home invasions: 2 minors abducted
Night peace disruption and/or home invasions in 4 refugee camps and 11 towns and villages
2 attacks (1 Israeli ceasefire violation)
31 raids including home invasions
2 beaten – 1 dead – 3 injured
2 acts of agricultural/economic sabotage
26 taken prisoner – 10 detained
114 restrictions of movement
http://palestine.org.nz/phrc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2277&Itemid=44
Dreoilin; “Have a look at the context, Macky, and stop making an ass of yourself”
The context is the current dispute on this thread;
Habbabkuk; “that the British threw out (you may even have said exterminated) the “indigenous population of the Falklands”.”
+
Habbabkuk; “Mr Goss used that expression in some comments he made on another thread some time ago”
John Goss; “Habbabkuk, you need to look this up. You will find you are wrong.”
And indeed Habbabkuk is factually wrong as John never used the expression “indigenous population of the Falklands”
There are comments by Giyane (especially), Habbabkuk, John Goss, Sophia and Ba’al Zevul to which I need to respond, but that will now be much later as I am off to a reception by Joan Walley MP, Chair of the Environmental Audit Select Committee. I hope to find out who are supporters of a judicial inquiry into the UK’s involvement with torture and preventing torture.
Can anyone else persuade Giyane to spell out the crimes I have committed?
lysias & Republicofscotland – From the way you two jumped at my teaser of an inconsistency there, it is clear your criticisms can be levelled only at one “side” of these discussions.
If you have anything of substance to contribute, perhaps you would be kind enough to define a “troll”. Or is Mary’s definition good enough for you, which appears to be “anyone who does not agree with me” ?
when you search BBC.co.uk for news on the presumed illegal detention, imprisonment & expulsion of an Italian ex-MEP this week, because he was going to speak on a debate “Is Russia Europe’s Enemy?”
this search:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=Giulietto+Chiesa&sa_f=search-serp
gets precisely ZERO relevant results from the BBC cloud, other than something from 2005 about another Italian. The BBC do helpfully link to a few articles elsewhere on the Web but as they are Itar-Tass I won’t add them. Estonia is spinning like mad on what they actually did or didn’t do and why, perhaps the US embassy in Tallinn could comment directly with the correct line to take? (avoids “Chinese Whispers”)
I can see that free speech in Europe does manifestly not exist at present
Meanwhile the ayrshire ‘Troon Times’ has studied Prestwick on Rendition flights, ‘wasting police time’ was the summary
http://www.troontimes.com/news/ayr/articles/2014/12/17/519100-prestwick-cia-investigation-waste-of-time/
and finally, exactly on Weasel Words, the Yorkshire Post has this comment
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/columnists/chris-moncrieff-weasel-words-and-a-quest-for-the-truth-1-7008078
Interesting account, from Jeffrey Sachs, about the very different financial treatment meted out to Poland and Russia.
Sachs was on the inside as an economist trying to sort out their respective finances.
Poland was aided by the West. Russia was shafted.
“While American and European generosity and the long view prevailed in Poland, American and European actions vis-a-vis post-Soviet Russia looks were much more like the horrendous blunders of Versailles. And we are paying the consequences to this day.”
“Where Poland had been granted debt relief, Russia instead faced harsh demands by the US and Europe to keep paying its debts in full. Where Poland had been granted rapid and generous financial aid, Russia received study groups from the IMF but no money. I begged and beseeched the US to do more. I pleaded the lessons of Poland, but all to no avail. The US government would not budge.
In the end, Russia’s malignant financial crisis overwhelmed the efforts at reform and normality. The reform government of Yegor Gaidar fell from grace and from power. I resigned after two hard years of trying to help, and of accomplishing very little indeed. A few years later, Vladimir Putin replaced Yeltsin at the helm.
Throughout this debacle, the US pundits blamed the reformers rather than the cruel neglect by the US and Europe.”
So here we are, where we are, today.
Long term planning, eh.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30483873
Wonder what Crawford has to say about this. He was looking after matters Russian around this time, before heading off to sort out the Balkans.
You were ducking and diving on that September thread, John.
And you’re still at it.
As I said to you then, I don’t have time for you. Talk away. It’s the one thing you’re good at, even when you’re in the wrong.
———————————
“There are people on this board who debate one another. To dismiss those tending to a particular position as all “trolls” is, frankly, idiotic.”
+ 1
And Bibi responds — “the Holocaust”! Netanyahu: Europe ‘learned nothing’ from Holocaust:
Looks like, wretched Old Droopy Chop HRH, may abdicate on Christmas day according to the bookies, that would make way for Prince Dobby aka Prince Charles, to become king.
If it is the case, we’d have an inept halfwit as PM and the other half on the throne, oh how I long for the days of Edward the 8th, at least we knew, he wasn’t make of sterner stuff.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/547424/Queen-Christmas-lunch-Royal-family-bookmakers-bets-abdication
Enjoy your Christmas dinner Mam, mind the fish bones, if you’re having fish.
Iain Orr
I know you from village FCKO land. You know nothing. Please kind Englishman tell Have I any wrong done.
Pretending to be a village idiot while you are the former employee and current pensionee of Her Majesty seems to be part of the FCO training.
“ysias & Republicofscotland – From the way you two jumped at my teaser of an inconsistency there, it is clear your criticisms can be levelled only at one “side” of these discussions.”
_______________________
RO
Don’t take it to heart I was just pulling your chain, I’ve no idea if you’re a troll or not?
Unless of course you’ve had plenty of work making the Lord of the Rings movies, or the Hobbit movies, if you haven’t then its probably not.
“Is there any technical way of finding easily/rapidly posts from John Goss (containing the word “Malvinas”)without having to wade through every single comment made on every thread over the last six months or so?”
____________________________
Habb
Erm!…..NO!
For once in your miserable life, you’ll need to do some research, and not parasite other comments.
Happy hunting.
Dreoilin, Habbabkuk does not debate. He takes a sentence out of context to see how quickly he can divert the blog-post. My comment from which he lifted a single sentence and then went into a deluded spin about the indigeneous population of the Falklands was this.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/31406/#comment-482834
If you read it all you will notice it is on topic. Thanks. Since then Habbabkuk has formed some kind of erroneous idea about what I said, and manufactured it into some fantasy about me talking about the Brits driving the indigeneous population off the Falklands. The man is a loon. Quite frankly most people are not interested in his false point-scoring, yourself excluded.
RoS
If the Queen wishes to resign her position, would it not be more appropriate to drop the ad feminems, to encourage her in her decision. Call her heir droopychops by all means.
Dreoilin this was the comment which Habbakuk twisted. It was actually he who talked of the Brits invading the Falklands. Now can we let it drop?
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/31406/#comment-482980
Nitpick: ad feminam. (But, since homo/hominem refers to humans of both sexes — unlike vir/virum — there’s no reason not to use the usual “ad hominem”.)
Brent Crude still going south.
“We can, of course, stick to our guns and insist that “sanctions are having an effect”. But what will we gain if the only effect is to destroy the Russian economy? Perhaps the hope is to destabilise the country so much that Putin is overthrown. (I detect much schadenfreude among observers, who desperately hope a collapse of the Russian economy will bring about Putin’s fall.) If so, it is a highly dangerous game of chance. Pouring fuel on Kremlin clan wars that we barely understand would be the height of folly. We have no idea what the outcome might be – and it could be much worse than what we have at present.
Or perhaps the hope is that the Russian people, ground down into poverty and despair, will rise up against the Kremlin and install a government of the west’s choosing. Dream on!”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/16/russia-economy-west-vladimir-putin
As we have been insisting, sanctions against Putin won’t reach Putin. How many Russian kids will we force-feed paint-chips to?
Dreoilin
Many thanks for finding Mr Goss’s post about the Falklands and communicating it (and also for giving me a tip on how to find things like that in future)
Since it was Iain Orr who wondered what that particular “John Goss Moment” actually was, I think we can leave it up to him to decide whether Mr Goss was referring to an “indigenous population” (which never existed) back in September or whether he wasn’t referring to the F
Falklands at all, as he now seems to be claiming.
Isn’t Mr Goss wonderfully Soviet Union? Deny something ever happened and brazen it our with evasions and feeble glosses when the truth comes out.
His moustache is probably in honour of Uncle Joe.
If Obama is able to reverse decades of U.S. policy on Cuba, now that the 2014 midterm election is past and he has nothing political to lose, perhaps there could also be a rethink on Palestine/Israel?