The Independent have Jack Straw well and truly cornered:
Writing in the Mail on Sunday, Craig Murray, who was sacked as UK ambassador to Uzbekistan in 2004 after alleging that Britain used intelligence obtained by the CIA under torture, said he attended a meeting at the Foreign Office where he was told that “it was not illegal for us to use intelligence from torture as long as we did not carry out the torture ourselves” and claimed this policy came directly from Mr Straw.
The former Foreign Secretary said: “At all times I was scrupulous in seeking to carry out my duties in accordance with the law. I hope to be able to say more about this at an appropriate stage in the future.”
I hope so too, and I hope that the appropriate time is either at the Old Bailey or The Hague.
Straw has climbed down a bit from his days of power and glory, when he told the House of Commons, immediately after sacking me, that there was no such thing as the CIA extraordinary rendition programme and its existence was “Mr Murray’s opinion.” He no longer claims it did not exist and he no longer claims I am a fantasist. He now merely claims he was not breaking the law.
His claim of respect for the law is a bit dubious in the light of Sir Michael Wood’s evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry. Wood said that as Foreign Office Legal Adviser, he and his elite team of in-house FCO international lawyers unanimously advised Straw the invasion of Iraq would be an illegal war of aggression. Straw’s response? He wrote to the Attorney General requesting that Sir Michael be dismissed and replaced. And forced Goldsmith to troop out to Washington and get alternative advice from Bush’s nutjob Republican neo-con lawyers.
Jack Straw did not have any desire to act legally. He had a desire to be able to mount a legal defence of his illegal actions. That is a different thing.
Should any of us live to see the publication of the Chilcot Report, this will doubtless be clear, though probably as a footnote to page 862 of Annex VII. That is how the Westminster establishment works.
The SNP has weighed in on the side of the angels:
Revelations by the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan of the UK’s knowledge and acceptance of torture must see those involved answer questions on what happened.
In an article in the Mail on Sunday, Mr Murray reveals that he attended a meeting at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office where he was told that “it was not illegal for us to use intelligence from torture as long as we did not carry out the torture ourselves” and revealed that this policy came directly from Jack Straw.
Mr Murray also reveals that “there was a deliberate policy of not writing down anything… because there should not be evidence of the policy.”
Craig Murray also states that “for the past year the British Ambassador in Washington and his staff have regularly been lobbying the US authorities not to reveal facts about the UK’s involvement in the CIA torture programme” and claims that is one of the reasons the full Senate report has not been published.
The SNP has called for a full judicial inquiry to be set up as a matter of urgency to get to get to the truth of who knew what and when.
Commenting, SNP Westminster Leader Angus Robertson MP said:
“Mr Murray’s revelation of the attitude taken by then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw only adds to the urgency with which we need a full judicial inquiry.
“Craig Murray’s article lifts the lid on the UK’s role in the human rights abuses that the US Senate has reported on and there can be no more attempts to avoid answering the tough questions that have been posed.
“Clearly answers are needed just as much from the politicians who led us at the time as from those directly involved in what was going on. The need for an independent judicial inquiry is now clear for all to see.
“It is also long past time that the findings of the Chilcot inquiry were published and there can be no more delays to that report being made public.
“There needs to be a full judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of the UK’s involvement in rendition flights that passed through UK territory and the UK’s wider knowledge of the abuses that the Senate has revealed.”
Craig Murray’s revelations can be viewed on page 25 of today’s Mail on Sunday
But with Malcolm Rifkind being promoted everywhere by the BBC to push his cover-up, it remains an uphill struggle.
Daily Mail: I saw British agents at secret torture sites, says boss of CIA’s brutal interrogation programme.
And, according to CBS, most Americans think torture is an effective in eliciting useful information from terrorist suspects and 49% approve of the use of torture.
We really are the Nazis this time. Vive Putin!
“We really are the Nazis this time.”
The Decline of the West mimics Rome. Let’s all go to the Circus for some bear-bating.
It is interesting that all these former Soviet satellites that gained their freedom are going out of their way to rehabilitate their ww2 fascist leaders and turn them into heroes. At first, I thought it was just Ukraine, but with the latest revelations regarding Estonia, and apparently also in Latvia, the practice seems much wider.
Should we be concerned?
““E. H. Carr was a scholar.”
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as well as one of the Soviet Union’s useful idiots.”
I call you Noddy because you make such stupid statements. Yes, Carr’s multi volume history was called “A History of Soviet Russia” the first volume of which was “The Bolshevik Revolution”. You have to remember it was alost 35 years ago when I was reading this. But you will find that the secret treaty of Rapallo is referred to as the secret treaty of Rapallo, though Lloyd George knew about it shortly afterwards.
John.
The tag team did their deceitful stuff…YAWN!
Exactly the pincer movement that was used for a while so successfully to upset and distract Mary.
The torture thread, though full of BS, wasn’t derailed. You let them get under your skin. Who can blame you.
And all because you wrote this, “I am longing for somebody to explain to me the precise mechanism by which our bombing Islamic countries helps prevent terrorist incidents in the UK.”
It doesn’t. Fortunately up to now the UK Muslim community has been long-suffering over defamation by the media. Young UK Muslims, who in my opinion and those of their families, misguidedly went to fight in foreign wars on ideological grounds, are more likely to come back horrified by war than radicalised against UK residents. We encouraged this action against Assad until oilfields were threatened by the western-creation ISIS.
Cameron needs a raison d’être to bomb. There is an election next year and he is the protégé of Thatcher, who when her popularity was flagging got it back on course with her war in the Falklands. Anything will do. So they make it up, beheadings and all. I’m sick of it and urge everybody of all parties to lobby their MPs against voting for Cameron’s war.
Thank you.
…
“When you know who you are; when your mission is clear and you burn with the inner fire of unbreakable will; no cold can touch your heart; no deluge can dampen your purpose. You know that you are alive.”
Chief Seattle, Duwamish
Sofia, thank you. I am struggling at the moment. Not regarding myself, but others, friends and relatives whose burdens we must all try to share. I might give the blog a rest again for a while.
John; Don’t take it so hard. It’s not necessary to answer the snide asides. Let it roll dude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ncxyOBsK6Y
John… you were right about RD! Apart from that, I’m sure there are lots of past and present global issues that we can debate, and Habby will be happy to distract us all over the place based on his nitpicking. As this thread on torture is so important, perhaps we should not allow ourselves to be distracted.
If the EU is so against torture, why does it support torturous regimes?
Mr Goss
You would make life much easier for yourself it you could simply own up to getting things wrong rather than persisting in your error.
“But you will find that the secret treaty of Rapallo is referred to as the secret treaty of Rapallo, though Lloyd George knew about it shortly afterwards.”
I don’t give a stuff whether E.H. Carr also referred to Rapallo as a secret Treaty. A Treaty that was widely known a mere few days after its negotiation and which was subsequently registered with the League of Nations is not a “secret” Treaty.
I can keep this up as long as you do, Mr Goss
“It is interesting that all these former Soviet satellites that gained their freedom are going out of their way to rehabilitate their ww2 fascist leaders and turn them into heroes. At first, I thought it was just Ukraine, but with the latest revelations regarding Estonia, and apparently also in Latvia, the practice seems much wider.
Should we be concerned?”
__________________
No, we should not be concerned at all.
The Balts see their WW2 leaders not as fascists but as people resisting the Soviets and Communism.
With good reason. The 1940 and 1945 incorporations of those countries into the Soviet Union refer.
“John.
The tag team did their deceitful stuff…YAWN!
Exactly the pincer movement that was used for a while so successfully to upset and distract Mary.
The torture thread, though full of BS, wasn’t derailed. You let them get under your skin. Who can blame you.”
_________________
Why do you – a middle-aged man – post as a young girl?
Do you think it adds gravitas to what you witter on about?
John Goss
But I’m sorry to hear you’re under pressure and I hope that the problems will soon be resolved. Best wishes.
Habbabkuk,
Stop being such a dunderheid.
A secret treaty need only be secret for a few hours,or a day…enough,say,to win a vital battle or political advantage.
Richard Silverstein on New Luntz Hasbara Handbook, “ What continues to fascinate about Luntz’s approach is that it is almost totally devoid of facts or evidence. The PR maven specializes in sentiment and emotion.”
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2014/11/17/new-luntz-hasbara-handbook-u-s-tax-dollars-fund-hamas-terror-tunnels/
One aspect so far overlooked is the affects on the renewable industries. Renewable energy was only viable with government grants and subsidies when oil was over $100, there is no way they will be able to compete now. That is another horse the SNP put a lot of money on.
Am i wrong in thinking that these grants and subsidies are not devolved at present?
@Habbabkuk :
”
You have a number of correspondents, so I appreciate your time in answering as you did. Particularly because you tackled the most important point, as far as I’m concerned.
I had rather taken it as read, that there was no praise to be made for Mao, or Stalin, from any sane person. I’d also rather assumed a great general sympathy for Tibet, among anyone with the least degree of humanity or plain decency. You suggest that this assumption is misplaced – we are clearly at an important point here.
My posts are largely ignored, most likely because I waffle too much. But could anyone reading this please weigh in, and tell me if I’m wrong in my assumptions in what I consider the progressive, liberal crowd here?
Is Habbabkuk correct, when he says:
Seriously – one of us has totally misread the general mood here. Which of us has it right?
It might be worth noting that, although the oil price is down at the moment, the situation may be temporary, and the resource is in any case finite. Not to mention the environmental catastrophe it is in the process of causing.
Oil getting below $60 is not the “end game” which some appear to be assuming here.
“Hope you have a good time with your guests and a Happy Christmas.”
Thank you, John. And a very Happy Christmas to you and yours too.
Long article here by Mike Whitney entitled
“The Oil Coup”
US-Saudi Subterfuge Send Stocks and Credit Reeling
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40501.htm
The chief of the general staff says we sre losing our courage. Does he want a little more war, war?
Britain Losing Courage, Military Chief Warns
General Houghton says the world is “more dangerous” than 12 months ago and he “worries” about Britain’s role.
http://news.sky.com/story/1393737/britain-losing-courage-military-chief-warns
The Israelis are taking away Palestinian academics and imprisoning them without charge or trial. It’s called ‘administrative detention’.
Please send letters as indicated here.
http://www.palestinematters.com/PALESTINIAN-ACADEMICS-ADVOCATES-TARGETED-FOR-IMPRISONMENT-WITHOUT-CHARGE-OR-TRIAL_Appeal_3132.aspx
~~~
See Palestine disappear in the banner and they talk of a two state solution.
16 December 2014
Kerry discusses Palestinian bid to end Israeli occupation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30498850
I see Blair has been scuttling around in this piece of theatre.
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Elbit has lost a order from Brazil. Jolly good.
Read here about suicide drones. What evil and what evil people.
‘Suicide Drones
Lieutenant Colonel Itzhar Jona, who heads Israel Aerospace Industries, spoke about “loitering munitions” — what he called a “politically correct” name for Suicide Drones. They are a hybrid of drone and missile technology that have “autonomous and partially autonomous” elements, and are “launched like a missile, fly like an UAV [unmanned aerial vehicle],” and once they identify a target, revert to “attack like a missile.” Jona called the Suicide Drone a “UAV that thinks and decides for itself,” then added, “If you [the operator] aren’t totally clear on the logic, it can even surprise you.” Jona praised the advantage of the Suicide Drone because the operator “doesn’t have to bring it home or deal with all sorts of dilemmas.” The Suicide Drone will quickly find a target using its internal logic, which Jona explained in this way: “It carries a warhead that eventually needs to explode. There needs to be a target at the end that will want to explode. Or it won’t want to and we will help it explode.”
http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014/israeli-arms-manufacturers-look-to-cash-in-on-the-war-in-gaza-12946
UK government and torture policy in Northern Ireland 1971-2. Lord Carrington. Eventually stopped by Edward Heath. Revealed to Jim Callaghan by Merlyn Rees in 1977. Eventually the subject of an RTE documentary in 2012 (papers declassified?).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715
First I’ve heard of this… not surprising that there grew an affinity between NI/Irish Catholics and the Palestinian people. Also, not surprising that the IRA hit back with their bombing campaign. As Baroness Jenny Tonge said, we can never condone violence, but we can try to understand how it came about…
The Metro has a photograph of some suicide drones on it’s front page.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/79804000/jpg/_79804460_met18.jpg
Emotionless automatons incapable of reason or independent thought.
Evil indeed.
That link did not work Kempe.
Another piece about the horrors.
Suicide Drones’ and the Spoils of War: Israeli arms manufacturers look to cash in on the war in Gaza
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/suicide-israeli-manufacturers
Glenn_UK
Thanks for yours (above).
No objection of course to you putting your question to commenters, but do not forget the “test” question on Tibet/China which I posed; I should be interested to see if anyone on here (other than yourself) will be able to bring himself to express what you consider to be the general opinion on Tibet/China. I have my doubts, because that would involve critising China – but I may yet be (pleasantly) surprised.
Best to you.
“critising” – let’s try “criticising”
Peacewisher
“First I’ve heard of this… not surprising that there grew an affinity between NI/Irish Catholics and the Palestinian people. Also, not surprising that the IRA hit back with their bombing campaign. As Baroness Jenny Tonge said, we can never condone violence, but we can try to understand how it came about…”
_____________
The info has been in the public domain for decades now.
Your “not surprising the IRA hit back with their bombing campaign” is tendentious because it seems to imply that enhanced interrogation techniques (torture if you like*) preceded IRA shootings and bombings.
I advise some more reading for you to find out if that was actually the case.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* I take it you know the 5 techniques we’re talking about?
Peter Oborne, in the Telegraph, scores again:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11299715/This-infatuation-with-Blair-will-damage-Camerons-reputation.html
David Cameron in this sense represents the survival of Tony Blair through other means: let’s call it Blameronism. This is defined by support for foreign intervention, political modernisation, government by clique, withering contempt for conventional party structures, and unquestioning support for the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel…
…Downing Street support has proved vital for Tony Blair’s business interests. I’m sure that there is nothing so undistinguished and grubby as a formal arrangement between Mr Blair and Mr Cameron. We are talking about nothing more complicated than a bit of mutual back-scratching.
Mr Cameron’s tacit support is essential for the success of Tony Blair Associates. Never before has a British former prime minister been allowed to operate as a plenipotentiary across continents in pursuit of private gain. Yet a few quiet words from the British Prime Minister could put an end to Mr Blair’s unedifying career in international consultancy.
The confusion between Blair’s private interests and official government business is nowhere more worthy of investigation than in dealings last year between Blair, Azerbaijan, BP and UK government officials, presumably in connection with the TAP pipeline project. Hint.
…Oborne ‘s thesis also explains the slow arrival of Chilcot:
Now comes word of a fresh delay. Those criticised by Chilcot have hired (at taxpayers’ expense) hugely expensive lawyers to challenge the conclusions of the inquiry. Bear in mind that Chilcot is the first major investigation into a political/military fiasco since the Gallipoli disaster 99 years ago. Its purpose is not to protect reputations, but to get at the truth and enable lessons to be learnt for the future.
Just so.