There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.
It is impossible to stop evil from happening. Simple low tech attacks by individuals, a kind of DIY terrorism, cannot always be pre-empted. If you try to do so universally, you will end up even further down the line we have gone down in the UK, where people are continually arrested and harassed who have no connection to terrorism at all, often for bragging on websites. These non-existent foiled terrorist plots are a risible feature of British politics nowadays. Every now and then one hits the headlines, like the arrests just before Remembrance Day. Their defining characteristic is that none of those arrested have any means of terrorism – 99% of those arrested for terrorism in the UK in the last decade – possessed no weapon and no viable explosive device.
In fact the only terrorist in the last year convicted in the UK, who possessed an actual bomb – a very viable explosive device indeed, was not charged with terrorism. He was a fascist named Ryan McGee who had a swastika on his wall and hated Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims with no weapons are locked up for terrorism. A fanatical anti-Muslim with a bomb is by definition not a terrorist.
I am assuming that the narrative that Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamists is correct, though that remains to be proved. For argument, let us assume the official narrative is true and the killings were by Muslims outraged at the magazine’s depictions of the Prophet Mohammed.
It is essential to free speech that it includes the freedom to offend. That must include the freedom to offend religious belief. Without such freedoms, the values of societies would freeze. Much social progress has caused real anguish and offence to some people. To have stopped Charlie Hebdo by law would have been wrong. To stop them by bullets is beyond any mitigation.
But that doesn’t make the unfortunate deceased heroes, and President Hollande was wrong to characterise them as such. Being murdered does not make you a hero. And being offensive is not necessarily noble. People who are persistently and vociferously offensive are often neither noble nor well-motivated. Much of Charlie Hebdo‘s taunting of Muslims was really unpleasant. That they also had Christian and other targets did not make this any better. It is not Private Eye – it is a magazine with a much nastier edge. I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants. But once the shock dies off, I do hope a more realistic assessment of whether Charlie Hebdo was entirely admirable or not may be possible. This in no way excuses the dreadful murders.
The ability to say things that offend is an important attribute of a free society. Richard Dawkins may offend believers. Peter Tatchell may offend homophobes. Pussy Riot offended Putin and the Orthodox Church. This must not be stopped.
But that must cut both ways. Abu Qatada broke no British laws in his lengthy stay in the UK, but was demonised for things he said (or even things newspapers invented he had said). Most of the French who are today in solidarity for freedom of expression, are against people being able to express themselves freely in what they wear. The security industry who are all over TV today want to respond to this attack on freedom of expression by more controls on the internet!
I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn, and so we should. But the amount of nuanced thought in the mainstream media is almost non-existent. What will now happen is that conservative commentators will rip individual phrases from this article and tweet them to show I support terrorism. The lack of nuanced thought is a reflection of a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism which has poisoned public life in modern western society.
Jemand
Don’t forget Kim John Goss. He’s one of the worst!
Komodo
“If it’s ok to make images of the Prophet (whose religion prohibits any such thing) and mock them, then it has to be ok to go into church and scream obscenities.”
No, such a disturbance would constitute a breach of the peace and the person doing it would likely be bound over to prevent further public order violations. Drawing Muhammad is an entirely different matter and I really couldn’t care less if their religion prohibits it.
Jemand, you’ve hit the nail on the head, and possibly your own head by the sound of it. Almost all blame does lie squarely at the feet of those who deploy western military aggression, wherever. Radicalising, arming, training, financing the crazier elements to enjoin with them, their armies, air-forces, navies, and with Saudi and Gulf state despots, in mass-murdering rampages, killing millions, to destroy whole nations and peoples way of life, culture, means of subsistence, whilst subjecting us to all this hysterical synthetic terror hype, as justification for what they have done and continue doing, rather stinks and these type of incident come as no surprise, feeding as they do the primed compliant media frenzy, which got us here in the first place. Shootings? In France? Let’s first get things in proportion. Obviously nuanced is not a word in your vocabulary, it was all them whirling dervishes fault.
Incidentally, to which medieval cult are you referring Jemand? Paganism?
My recipe for “False-Flag pie”
Ingredients:
Patsies
Actual perpetrators
Means (weapons etc.)
Target
Method:
First select and ensnare a choice patsy or three
Stir well, Preheat media, Bake and serve.
Serves the 1%.
Clark reposts a quote with approval –
“White people don’t like to admit it, but those cartoons upheld their prejudice, their racism, their political supremacy, and cut it how you will — images like that upheld a political order built on discrimination.”
Read –> White people don’t like to admit it …
It takes real hubris to make an overtly racist statement like that. While Clark is busy defending an ideological cult on the basis that NOT ALL muslims engage in or support political violence, he endorses a blanket accusation against ALL white people who, one would expect, wish to maintain hard fought liberties from two world wars in THEIR OWN LAND.
Libturds have no dignity.
Editor at Financial Times accuses Charlie Hebdo of Muslim baiting.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/07/financial-times-europe-editor-tony-barber-accuses-charlie-hebdo-of-muslim-baiting_n_6431346.html
Well, well….
Frank GardnerBBC security correspondent
Tweets: Initial indications are France has successfully ended both hostage situations. 2 #CharlieHebdo gunmen reportedly killed, 53 hours after raid.
No questions there, then
Anon, despite the fact that I am diametrically opposed to many of John Goss’s views on various matters, I have found him to be a very nice person. If you disagree with him in a way that doesn’t spit in his face, then he will politely discuss. It’s a pity that hostilities between you and John were laid down so firmly long ago. You might have found an agreeable way of disagreeing – ie robust and pointed questions without it drifting into the personal zone of the likes we see from others.
I have been very tolerant of people who have sneeringly inferred false motives. For them, I am no longer willing to give them any benefit of the doubt.
Any way, thanks for the support on this topic.
Jemand, I asked if you had some personal grudge against Islam. I still ask, and here’s why.
Religions all look pretty similar to me. They all teach some creation myth, some morals, and some political and societal conditioning. They are obviously a part of human social organisation. Hundreds of them have arisen spontaneously in every human society. Every human society has developed some sort of religion. Religions all teach a similar selection of things.
So why do you think of Islam as so different? Why do you misrepresent it so, such as your claim that Islam is uniform with no branches or varied sects?
Jemand, just look at the figures. In Gaza we see that Muslims killed by Israel outnumber Jews killed by Palestinians about one hundred to one. 9/11 killed a few thousand; in Iraq, the US retaliation killed, at absolute minimum, 120,000 and plausibly 650,000 in the first few years – ratios of about 30:1 and 200:1.
Libya is devastated, lawless.
In terms of raw numbers – oh need I really go on? I expect you know the facts.
Yet you seemingly attribute all the violence to Islam. Why? Islam has some unpleasant ideology, but so do ALL religions.
When reaction is incited, religion acts as an ideological enabler, a way that fighters can justify their actions to themselves and each other. Nationalism, patriotism, and political ideology can all serve the same purpose. This seems obvious to me.
So what’s so special about Islam to YOU?
Tony M – “Radicalising, arming, training, financing the crazier elements to enjoin with them, their armies, air-forces, navies, and with Saudi and Gulf state despots, in mass-murdering rampages, killing millions, to destroy whole nations and peoples way of life, culture, means of subsistence, whilst subjecting us to all this hysterical synthetic terror hype, as justification for what they have done and continue doing, rather stinks and these type of incident come as no surprise, feeding as they do the primed compliant media frenzy, which got us here in the first place.”
There is much in there that I agree with. Throw a stone at a hornet’s nest and you bear some responsibility for being stung.
However, your suggestion that ALL blame lies with military excursions into the Middle East, is not correct. What it has done, is accelerate what normally takes centuries to accomplish like in other parts of the world. As you know, much of South East Asia has been colonised and dominated by this medieval Arabic culture. You wouldn’t be so naive to think that the means by which they came to dominate and displace indigenous people and culture was peaceful, would you? For guidance on how they conduct themselves, please refer to Africa.
“Jemand, I asked if you had some personal grudge against Islam. I still ask, and here’s why.”
Maybe I do, maybe I don’t. It’s really none of your fucking business either way so go ahead and assume anything you want, because that is what you always do in the end, Clark. You assume what fits with your pre-existing ideological positions because it’s all too hard to admit that you are wrong.
“Why do you misrepresent it so, such as your claim that Islam is uniform with no branches or varied sects?”
I never said that. More assumptions to suit your biases.
“Jemand, just look at the figures. In Gaza we see that Muslims killed by Israel outnumber Jews killed by Palestinians about one hundred to one. 9/11 killed a few thousand; in Iraq, the US retaliation killed, at absolute minimum, 120,000 and plausibly 650,000 in the first few years – ratios of about 30:1 and 200:1.”
Ergo, Islam is a religion of peace.
You really can’t see how stupid you really are.
“Yet you seemingly attribute all the violence to Islam. Why? Islam has some unpleasant ideology, but so do ALL religions.”
Seemingly?
You have comprehension issues, Clark. I have never stated anything of a kind. More bullshit from someone who thinks he knows better than EX-MUSLIMS about their former religion.
Mark Golding
“I have entered the mind of Bernard-Henri Lévy, the West’s most visible war-on-Libya advocate and incestuous lobbyist.”
____________________
I hope you took a good shower afterwards!
But, on second thoughts – does BHL have a mind?
My previous post was the second one today that ended-up in Spamelot-land. Does this blog have something against posts with a French IP address?
[craigmurray.org.uk – and this one!]
And in that vein, I could also add that the jingoism displayed by the British media has maintained its usual appalling standard. Coverage of the events in and around Paris has been a constant round of French-bashing. The French media, whilst sometimes taking the mickey out of the Ross-biffs, do not go in for such a bigoted and condescending attitude.
“When reaction is incited, religion acts as an ideological enabler, a way that fighters can justify their actions to themselves and each other. Nationalism, patriotism, and political ideology can all serve the same purpose. This seems obvious to me.
So what’s so special about Islam to YOU?”
Where is all the violence from Buddhists (who outnumber muslims in Australia)?
Where is all the violence from Scientologists?
Where is all the violence from philatelists?
Maybe you should talk to an imam about the Quran. Yes, despite the fact that you think that the Quran is completely irrelevant, it is still printed in the millions, sold in the millions, read in the millions, discussed in mosques by millions of followers and yet – MAGICALLY – is completely irrelevant to understanding what motivates muslims in both the muslim world and the West.
Honestly, Clark. Why do you waste time with an obvious crackpot like me, when all of your questions can be put to REAL LIFE (EX)MUSLIMS? You have a facebook account, don’t you? Go and ‘Like’ some pages – Hizb ut Tahrir, Ex-Muslim Association, Muslim social pages.. there are plenty, Clark. Only an arrogant know-it-all wouldn’t think to engage with actual muslims and obtain answers from them DIRECTLY. So why don’t you do that, Clark? I absolutely guarantee that you will learn a hundred times more stuff about Islam than you could ever hope to learn from me.
RobG – “And in that vein, I could also add that the jingoism displayed by the British media has maintained its usual appalling standard. Coverage of the events in and around Paris has been a constant round of French-bashing. The French media, whilst sometimes taking the mickey out of the Ross-biffs, do not go in for such a bigoted and condescending attitude.”
Murdoch and his mates are a bunch of arseholes. And they are criminals too with their hacking activites.
Just thank the good folk who invented and progress the intergoogle that we can cross check and research what is going on. It’s not perfect. Never will be. But it’s better than ever before.
The spam filter is called Akismet, it uses a remote database to identify spam that is common across many blogs.
You could run a virus check. If your computer has malware it may be acting as a spam-bot, causing Akismet to identify it as a source of spam.
Reboot your router by turning it off for a few seconds; on most connections this gets you a new IP address.
RobG, only 3 comments of yours have come from your current IP address, and all have been sent to spam. Reboot your router for a new address.
Tony M
Furthermore, Western misdeeds do not explain the violent conflict that has raged between Shia and Sunnis for centuries. You would have that thought that the “religion of peace”, being both of them, would have peacably tolerated each other’s minor differences. Wouldn’t you agree?
“…But I was having great difficulty not to laugh. Laugh really hard. I felt a huge amount of shame that I felt like laughing, but I could barely control it. It seemed to me to be trying to burst out of me.
Eventually I had to break off conversation and walk on.”
Clark, I think what you’ve described is an attack of almost-hysterics, brought on by tension. I’ve often felt an urge to laugh back in the days when I used to attend Mass, and once at a funeral. It seems that the more unsuitable laughter is in a given context, the more we feel the urge. In other words, I don’t think your experience is unusual. Or anything to be ashamed of.
hysterics (hɪˈstɛrɪks)
n (functioning as plural or singular)
1. (Psychiatry) an attack of hysteria
2. wild uncontrollable bursts of laughter
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hysterics
“Drawing Muhammad is an entirely different matter and I really couldn’t care less if their religion prohibits it.”
Not quite. Causing offence is an offence in the UK and I’m sure the police would make a big deal about it.
Unless they’re too busy with the usual trivia that seems to wind them up.
Muslims should report every instance and clog the courts with this nonsense.
Dreoilin, I was ashamed at the time, but realised it was obviously caused by tension later.
But I’ve seen far too many US conspiracy sites saying “Look at this [brother | sister | wife | son | daughter] of the so-called deceased; their expression is inappropriate, so they’re acting and it must be a conspiracy!”
@ Clark
“I think this should be remembered when people present videos of people affected by tragedy who display “inappropriate” emotions, and thus get accused of being professional actors engaged in the creation of a hoax.”
Your observations are interesting, but context is relevant. Robbie Parker’s performance has to be considered in the context of, for example, the bing.com cached article from the Newtown Bee that reported the Sandy Hood massacre the day before the massacre is supposed to have occurred and reported statements by the school principal, Dawn Hochsprung, concerning events that did not occur until she was supposed, according to the official narrative, to have already been killed.
In that context, and some other remarkable facts about the alleged Sandy Hook massacre that worked admirably into President Obama’s anti-gun crusade, Robbie Parker’s cheerful demeanor and his resort to a deep breathing exercise before facing the camera is certainly relevant evidence, although of course it is not definitive.
Jemand, 5:20 pm; you are right. What you actually wrote was:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/12/happy-new-year/comment-page-4/#comment-500114
However, this would logically imply that Islam is uniform with no sects or branches. You also wrote:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/12/happy-new-year/comment-page-4/#comment-500137
Jemand, it’s difficult to discuss with you because you seem so angry. It looks like you have something personal against Islam, or maybe against Muslims. But this is only my opinion, and a change in your attitude would change my opinion.
Anyway, you believe that Islam should be suppressed and contained in certain countries. I disagree. I think people can change, and I think that exposure to other peoples, ideas and societies is what changes them. But that sword cuts both ways, and demonising people for their religion is likely to entrench and aggravate them.
Herbie
I’m not aware that drawing Muhammad is an offence in the UK, regardless of whether it causes offence to Muslims.
Why do you wish to clog up the courts with this nonsense?
@Canspeccy: Since your apparent belief is that the Sandy Hook massacre victims were “all actors”, how come they weren’t a little bit better then, huh? Shouldn’t your professional actors remember the appropriate countenance at all times?
Amazing thing with you “false-flag” nuts – you’ll leap on anything, but glaring contradictions in your own story present no cause for doubt.
Canspeccy, a time-stamp is NOT a context to anyone’s personal emotions.
Maybe someone set a computer clock wrong, eh? Bing is Microsoft, who are famous for fucking up all things software.
But keeping to the Charlie Hebdo (or Je Suis CIA LIE, as some have called it) incident, is it not remarkable that the spatter of blood and brains of the poor police officer apparently murdered by a shot to the head by one of the assassins, which were so obviously lacking yesterday were supplied later.
The blood was “put there,” according to the Sky News reporter on the spot, “because of the blood that was shed at this spot yesterday.”
This certainly confirms the point I made yesterday that there was a mysterious lack of blood in the video of the shooting. Quite unlike what one sees in the Zapruder video of Jack Kennedy’s murder. Note both the lack of rifle recoil and the absence of any Newtonian reaction in the body of the man supposedly being executed by a shot to the head.
“But I’ve seen far too many US conspiracy sites saying “Look at this [brother | sister | wife | son | daughter] of the so-called deceased; their expression is inappropriate, so they’re acting and it must be a conspiracy!”
Me too.
But the one CanSpeccy linked to did shock me – initially. I’ve seen it many times since the actual event. Now I think it could be indicative of anything. Shock, tension, grief. Who knows.
Canspeccy, I think you should wait for the autopsy of that police officer. You really can’t say what happened from a mobile phone video on YouTube. Maybe a bullet wound will be found in the left side of that man’s neck.
Meanwhile, conspiracy theorists should just pause for a minute and think “how will I be affecting survivors and victims’ loved ones if I’m wrong, and he really was murdered?”