There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.
It is impossible to stop evil from happening. Simple low tech attacks by individuals, a kind of DIY terrorism, cannot always be pre-empted. If you try to do so universally, you will end up even further down the line we have gone down in the UK, where people are continually arrested and harassed who have no connection to terrorism at all, often for bragging on websites. These non-existent foiled terrorist plots are a risible feature of British politics nowadays. Every now and then one hits the headlines, like the arrests just before Remembrance Day. Their defining characteristic is that none of those arrested have any means of terrorism – 99% of those arrested for terrorism in the UK in the last decade – possessed no weapon and no viable explosive device.
In fact the only terrorist in the last year convicted in the UK, who possessed an actual bomb – a very viable explosive device indeed, was not charged with terrorism. He was a fascist named Ryan McGee who had a swastika on his wall and hated Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims with no weapons are locked up for terrorism. A fanatical anti-Muslim with a bomb is by definition not a terrorist.
I am assuming that the narrative that Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamists is correct, though that remains to be proved. For argument, let us assume the official narrative is true and the killings were by Muslims outraged at the magazine’s depictions of the Prophet Mohammed.
It is essential to free speech that it includes the freedom to offend. That must include the freedom to offend religious belief. Without such freedoms, the values of societies would freeze. Much social progress has caused real anguish and offence to some people. To have stopped Charlie Hebdo by law would have been wrong. To stop them by bullets is beyond any mitigation.
But that doesn’t make the unfortunate deceased heroes, and President Hollande was wrong to characterise them as such. Being murdered does not make you a hero. And being offensive is not necessarily noble. People who are persistently and vociferously offensive are often neither noble nor well-motivated. Much of Charlie Hebdo‘s taunting of Muslims was really unpleasant. That they also had Christian and other targets did not make this any better. It is not Private Eye – it is a magazine with a much nastier edge. I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants. But once the shock dies off, I do hope a more realistic assessment of whether Charlie Hebdo was entirely admirable or not may be possible. This in no way excuses the dreadful murders.
The ability to say things that offend is an important attribute of a free society. Richard Dawkins may offend believers. Peter Tatchell may offend homophobes. Pussy Riot offended Putin and the Orthodox Church. This must not be stopped.
But that must cut both ways. Abu Qatada broke no British laws in his lengthy stay in the UK, but was demonised for things he said (or even things newspapers invented he had said). Most of the French who are today in solidarity for freedom of expression, are against people being able to express themselves freely in what they wear. The security industry who are all over TV today want to respond to this attack on freedom of expression by more controls on the internet!
I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn, and so we should. But the amount of nuanced thought in the mainstream media is almost non-existent. What will now happen is that conservative commentators will rip individual phrases from this article and tweet them to show I support terrorism. The lack of nuanced thought is a reflection of a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism which has poisoned public life in modern western society.
This former Ex-CIA head of the Bin Laden Unit, destroys a few media myths. There a quite a few people in the centres of US power who take this view, including Chuck Hagel.
It could be argued that it’s media itself which undermines this aspect of the US view, so much so that reporters are confused when he states his view. They’ve just never heard this before, nor of course have most of their viewers.
Anyway, Dersh is sitting there stroking his chin. Don’t think he likes this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IgkO7ir-s4
Interesting to compare this with the views of the former Shin Bet heads in The Gatekeepers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLCX-_HZ_1s
Is it really possible that it is media itself, and US media in particular that is driving the agenda, against the views of the experts working in the field.
Sure seems that way.
Quite horrifying.
@Herbie
“Great stuff, as ever, from Paul Craig Roberts.”
Really – would you regard the following as great stuff?
“In their hatred of “the rich,” the left-wing overlooks that in the 20th century the rich were the class most persecuted by government. The class genocide of the 20th century is the greatest genocide in history.”
“Whites are shrinking into a minority even within their own countries. massive uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration, together with collapsing fertility rates of whites everywhere, foretell a vanishing race.”
“In the U.S., native-born whites already are second-class citizens in their own country. Unconstitutional group privileges have arisen based on race, gender, and disability. White males no longer have equal rights. “
With regard to Milton Friedman …….“great economist of our times.”
“C’est incroyable! All the gangsters-in-charge will be there. The collective noun for gangsters is ‘a knuckle’.
‘On Sunday David Cameron and Angela Merkel, as well as the Ukrainian, Italian and Spanish leaders, Petro Poroshenko, Matteo Renzi and Mariano Rajoy – 30 world leaders in all – will take part in…etc’ ”
_______________
It is the above sort of nonsense – those 30 world leaders are all “gansters-in-charge” – which makes it imposssible to take anything Mary says (or more usually, cuts-and-pa
stes) seriously.
It is just so off-the-wall, unbalanced, unthinking, juvenile…..
“Are you are seriously arguing that the translation of the caption from French to English amounts to forgery ?!!”
Yes and the subsequent promotion of the image out of its original context – basically it was being used by the “offended” in order to stir up further offence – which is of course exactly the same highly hypocritical game that you are playing. Why if you are offended do you continue to post the same links to the images?
Resident Dissident; “Yes and the subsequent promotion of the image out of its original context”
LOL!!!
I really have no comment, apart from that is the most ridiculous & shameless attempt to avoid somebody admitting that they got something wrong, that I’ve ever encountered ! Thanks for the really good belly laught at least !
“In their hatred of “the rich,” the left-wing overlooks that in the 20th century the rich were the class most persecuted by government. The class genocide of the 20th century is the greatest genocide in history.”
This is correct. Aristocrats were almost taxed out of existence. You could see this process ongoing up into the 1960s where their large estates were sold off to rock stars and whatnot. More generally that was the fag end of a process that had been ongoing since the 17th century replacing monarchies with republics. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Not so much now.
What he doesn’t say there is that these old rich were replaced with a new rich.
But yes. I do have a fondness for paleoconservatives.
That’s why people like Peter Hitchens and Peter Oborne are having a new lease of life in these times.
As we now know, the Left weren’t quite what we thought they were. Another deceptive vehicle for altogether other interests. When they’d done their job, they too disappeared.
“Whites are shrinking into a minority even within their own countries. massive uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration, together with collapsing fertility rates of whites everywhere, foretell a vanishing race.”
That’s certainly the trend, though I think it’s more a issue in the cities than it is nationally.
“In the U.S., native-born whites already are second-class citizens in their own country. Unconstitutional group privileges have arisen based on race, gender, and disability. White males no longer have equal rights. “
Absolutely. Haven’t liked political correctness since I saw it twisted in the early 1990s and have said so here many times.
I do believe in equal opportunites. That’s why I don’t like PC. It’s just a media game.
“Milton Friedman …….“great economist of our times.””
Unless he means “great” as in notable, I wouldn’t agree. Though he did understand the evils of banking.
Tony M
You were caught out before with regard to selective quotations from the Hitch taken out of context – I’m afraid I don’t have the time or energy to point out your calumny this time. I am afraid you are suffering from such arrogance that you do not understand that it is quite possible for perfectly intelligent people (as Hitch undoubtedly was) to take different views from the same set of facts driven by the underlying values that they hold.
I would suggest that other intelligent people might wish to read Hitch’s article as a whole and form their own views rather than relying on Tony M’s incredibly distorted precis – of course there are some inaccuracies that came to light, but the general thrust is still largely intact and we have witnessed a very similar reaction from the “ersatz” left as occurred to 9/11.
Macky
As ever you avoid the pertinent questions when challenged. NLOL
@Jemand, I trust you can now see why I rated you as an Einstein as compared to some here ! LOL !!
Res Diss
This quibbling about the cartoon seems every bit as fatuous as your quibbling about the Hitch thing.
It’s like you’re autistic or something. Are you?
Moderate muslims protest over the France attacks –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laC06lAe50Q
Steady Jemand, posting real genuine forgeries like that, you will start to lose your Einstein status !
And you try to make fun of people falling for conspiracy theories ! LOL !
@ Resident Dissident 8 Jan, 2015 – 11:17 pm
“Macky 6:18pm
That cartoon that you promoted was clearly a forgery – the signature is noticeably different from Coco’s (Corinne Ray) usual signature on her cartoons and the artwork is no where near her normal standard. We have to remember that the islamofacists and their sympathisers (such as Macky) put out similar derogatory cartoons depicting Mohammed after their attacks on the Danish cartoons – all of which demonstrates that their real intention is not to show any respect to Mohammed but to stir up hatred against their usual targets.”
Which part of the above refers to Macky translating the caption?
That’s from a fascist site, Jemand.
Are you sure that isn’t London Pakistanis celebrating their cricketing win over Australia from a few months ago.
You’d know about that.
Like why would they specifically allign the Pakistani flag with the Paris shooting. They wouldn’t would they. They’d use some generic muslim symbol.
This should be a banning offence if you’re caught on this.
Up there with the Stormfront affair from a few years back.
Can someone please give me the original French caption and the English translation to which people are referring so that, using my superb knowledge of both languages, I may pronounce and settle this argument once and for all?
Thank you.
Thanks Node, as I forgot about this bit;
“That cartoon that you promoted was clearly a forgery – the signature is noticeably different from Coco’s (Corinne Ray) usual signature on her cartoons and the artwork is no where near her normal standard”
Somehow I don’t think he is pushing this angle anymore, funny that !
You’ve been caught, Jemand!
Using a fascist site to incite hatred against muslims.
This person shouldn’t be allowed to post. They’re dangerous.
The full footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcIwU7-j3qI
This is so close to the Stormfront episode I think we need to think about the agendas of some of the people posting here.
Come on Habby, it’s already double egg on face time, let’s see if you can be the hat trick !
(A knuckle of) gangsters-in-charge?
Certainly. How many of those marching in Paris tomorrow have waged war, primarily on predominantly Muslim countries?
How many human deaths are they responsible for?
How many have blood on their hands just like Blair and Bush?
~~~
The trolls, in concert, are dominating the comments on this thread in particular. Why is that one asks?
Macky
Please supply the original caption and the English translation if you can.
Well done Herbie !
As I said only just a little while ago iro Jemand;
“Of all the regular Posters here, you are without doubt the most disturbingly sinister”
“The trolls, in concert, are dominating the comments on this thread in particular. Why is that one asks?”
_____________
Perhaps because the usual arses are upping their usual mischief?
Anyway, it is normal that I and a small number of others should dominate (intellectually) when faced with a wall of nonsense.
Habbabkuk; “Please supply the original caption and the English translation if you can”
Only if you can explain what the slightest degree of difference the translating accuracy has to do the offensiveness of an image depicting the Prophet Muhammad with a dripping penis.
Mary
Would you care to name any gangsters-in-charge from the Arab world, Africa, Latin America and Asia?
Or is your vision resolutely Euro- and USA- centric?
Macky
I thought part of the argument was about a (deliberate?) mistranslation of the original French caption.
I am an expert in French and English not in dripping penises, so I’d prefer to leave discussions about the latter to the experts; I’m sure there are some on here.
So can you help, or if not, can anyone else supply?
“It would, however, be nice if they occasionally ate a little humble pie and admitted they were wrong. But of course they do not, because they will always deny the existence of “undeniable proof”, as you put it.”
———————————
Habb.
With regards to eating humble pie are you referring to the Paris incident, and if so, can you provide evidence, to show that certain posters are/were, wrong, with their theories.
Thanks.
Habbabkuk; “I thought part of the argument was about a (deliberate?) mistranslation of the original French caption”
You thought wrong in your sly try to muddy the water to help RD out way !
@Resident Dissident, hey Jemand has just posted a real bona fide forgery, a racist one too, so where’s your usual appeals for the Mods to take action ? !!
Can we have a minutes silence on this blog – a French Police Commissioner tasked with investigating a facet of the Charlie Hebdo incident has committed suicide.
” can you provide evidence, to show that certain posters are/were, wrong, with their theories. ”
Orbiting blue teapot time again. You can’t disprove it therefore it must be true.
More to the point can those certain posters provide any sound evidence that their theories are correct?