There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.
It is impossible to stop evil from happening. Simple low tech attacks by individuals, a kind of DIY terrorism, cannot always be pre-empted. If you try to do so universally, you will end up even further down the line we have gone down in the UK, where people are continually arrested and harassed who have no connection to terrorism at all, often for bragging on websites. These non-existent foiled terrorist plots are a risible feature of British politics nowadays. Every now and then one hits the headlines, like the arrests just before Remembrance Day. Their defining characteristic is that none of those arrested have any means of terrorism – 99% of those arrested for terrorism in the UK in the last decade – possessed no weapon and no viable explosive device.
In fact the only terrorist in the last year convicted in the UK, who possessed an actual bomb – a very viable explosive device indeed, was not charged with terrorism. He was a fascist named Ryan McGee who had a swastika on his wall and hated Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims with no weapons are locked up for terrorism. A fanatical anti-Muslim with a bomb is by definition not a terrorist.
I am assuming that the narrative that Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamists is correct, though that remains to be proved. For argument, let us assume the official narrative is true and the killings were by Muslims outraged at the magazine’s depictions of the Prophet Mohammed.
It is essential to free speech that it includes the freedom to offend. That must include the freedom to offend religious belief. Without such freedoms, the values of societies would freeze. Much social progress has caused real anguish and offence to some people. To have stopped Charlie Hebdo by law would have been wrong. To stop them by bullets is beyond any mitigation.
But that doesn’t make the unfortunate deceased heroes, and President Hollande was wrong to characterise them as such. Being murdered does not make you a hero. And being offensive is not necessarily noble. People who are persistently and vociferously offensive are often neither noble nor well-motivated. Much of Charlie Hebdo‘s taunting of Muslims was really unpleasant. That they also had Christian and other targets did not make this any better. It is not Private Eye – it is a magazine with a much nastier edge. I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants. But once the shock dies off, I do hope a more realistic assessment of whether Charlie Hebdo was entirely admirable or not may be possible. This in no way excuses the dreadful murders.
The ability to say things that offend is an important attribute of a free society. Richard Dawkins may offend believers. Peter Tatchell may offend homophobes. Pussy Riot offended Putin and the Orthodox Church. This must not be stopped.
But that must cut both ways. Abu Qatada broke no British laws in his lengthy stay in the UK, but was demonised for things he said (or even things newspapers invented he had said). Most of the French who are today in solidarity for freedom of expression, are against people being able to express themselves freely in what they wear. The security industry who are all over TV today want to respond to this attack on freedom of expression by more controls on the internet!
I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn, and so we should. But the amount of nuanced thought in the mainstream media is almost non-existent. What will now happen is that conservative commentators will rip individual phrases from this article and tweet them to show I support terrorism. The lack of nuanced thought is a reflection of a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism which has poisoned public life in modern western society.
If the self appointed senior troll thinks I am going to waste time answering facile questions, he has another think coming.
I clearly didn’t get the nature of the forgery right originally – I was comparing the cartoon in issue with other work from Coco where the illustration was of a far higher quality and the signature was signed differently (there was a curl at the top of the c and the underlining was in a different position. But that is really not the issue – the cartoon was still a forgery – the transcription was translated from French to English (accurately btw Habba) – but this clearly was done by someone attempting to copy Coco’s script style not very successfully and even more significantly the cartoon was taken from the original context within Charlie Hebdo where is was part of a series of linked cartoons – I very much doubt that such a treatment was approved by Coco or Charlie Hebdo, so despite by original error it is still a forgery and it was most definitely not taken from the magazine as Mackt claimed.
All this of course does not explain why Macky although claiming that the cartoon was offensive is happy to link to it several times? Or why he is happy to defend those who doctor the cartoon by changing the language of the caption and print it out of context – who at best are engaged in theft and at worst are trying to stir up hatred, while at the same time pretending that they are offended by the cartoon? I’m afraid my original error pales into insignificance compared with those who are using this whole event in order to stir up trouble (and that applies to both sides of the argument I’m afraid).
Je suis Charlie
PS and no I’m not autistic as the lovely Herbie asks.
This is a sensible well reasoned piece from Counterpunch. There are articles by other authors, including Tariq Ali, listed on the LH side of the page.
Guilty by Association, All 1.6 Billion of Us!
4 Reasons Why ‘Je Suis Fatigue’ From Islamophobia
by KHALISHAH K. STEVENS
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/09/4-reasons-why-je-suis-fatigue-from-islamophobia/
Khalisah K. Stevens is an American-Malaysian living in the Middle East. A graduate with a degree in International Relations and a minor in History. She follows current events and gender issues and champions multiculturalism to create a space for third culture kids (TCKs) like her(self).
Macky
If Jemand’s link is a forgery then of course it should be removed – hopefully you would same the same about links you posted to a cartoon that you argue is offensive, if only to clear yourself of the charge of gross hypocrisy.
Mary
Could you just start to answer serious questions regarding your own posts?
Aye, a proper Charlie.
Another that comes recommended.
Robert Fisk
Friday 9 January 2015
Charlie Hebdo: Paris attack brothers’ campaign of terror can be traced back to Algeria in 1954
Algeria is the post-colonial wound that still bleeds in France
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html
A reminder of de Gaulle’s time.
‘Although the military campaigns led against Algerian nationalists were complete successes, with most prominent FLN leaders killed or arrested and terror attacks effectively stopped, the brutality of the methods employed failed to win hearts and minds in Algeria, alienated support in Metropolitan France and discredited French prestige abroad.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War
“Orbiting blue teapot time again. You can’t disprove it therefore it must be true.”
“More to the point can those certain posters provide any sound evidence that their theories are correct?”
_________________________
Kempe.
A nice, but childish, attempt to degrade the question, so I’ll pose it to you, we know their are no “Blue orbiting teapots.” but do you know, that certain poster are/were wrong with their theories over the Paris incident.
Its not up to the poster to provide evidence as such at this moment in time, remember theirs are theories, but you and Habb, are to all effects denigrating the posters, without first showing undeniable proof that they are in fact wrong.
Thanks.
There’s no mistranslation.
It’s word perfect.
Now you’re criticising the fuckin lettering!
If you’re not autistic, please see a doctor. You’re not well.
The reason you don’t like the link is because you don’t want anyone to see what these cartoonists were up to.
Muslims and their supporter are certainly entitled to show people the abuse they have to put up with, and none of your twisted garbage can take away from that.
You’re a twisted distraction artist pure and simple.
Nothing to do with free speech. Pure abuse, from a bunch of over-rated turds. Even the drafting quality of their work is fuckin abysmal. For a country that prides itself on its love of animation, it’s poor stuff. Even the Brits can manage better than that.
Mary
“If the self appointed senior troll thinks I am going to waste time answering facile questions, he has another think coming.”
__________________
If my questions are facile, surely even you should be capable of answering them?
(Facile : a.1483.{Fr. facile or L. facilis..} 1. That can be accomplished with little effort. 2. Presenting few difficulties; easy to understand or to use 1531.
Shorter Oxford English Dictionary.)
@Resident Dissident, sorry but if that was some sort of half arsed apology, it’s pathetic as even that; you should really stop digging yourself further & further into a hole of cringing embarrassment, and you should stop deluding yourself that the image published in Charlie Hebdo differs in any meaningful way that it can possibly be called a forgery;
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/hndhv3h8gp7x98ku8e7s.jpg
Professor Herbie
“There’s no mistranslation.
It’s word perfect.
Now you’re criticising the fuckin lettering!
If you’re not autistic, please see a doctor. You’re not well.
The reason you don’t like the link is because you don’t want anyone to see what these cartoonists were up to.”
______________
I neither like nor dislike the link for the simple reason that I can’t find it. Which is why I asked someone to give me the two texts here.
You may well be right that there is no mistranslation, but I’m sure you’ll understand that I’d like to check that and then pronounce. After all, I prefer not just to take your word for it because (1) I don’t know how good your French is and (2) your word is not necessarily the most trustworthy on here, is it.
So please supply. Failure to do so might make me think you are hiding something.
Republicofscotland
“Kempe.
A nice, but childish, attempt to degrade the question, so I’ll pose it to you, we know their are no “Blue orbiting teapots.” but do you know, that certain poster are/were wrong with their theories over the Paris incident.
Its not up to the poster to provide evidence as such at this moment in time, remember theirs are theories, but you and Habb, are to all effects denigrating the posters, without first showing undeniable proof that they are in fact wrong.
Thanks.”
___________________
With great respect, you’ve got things the wrong way round again.
Neither Kempe nor anyone else came on here double quick to say the official narrative was correct, did they.
But there were several who were quick to say that it wasn’t and that this was a false flag.
It is therefore up to those who started off this discussion by casting doubt on the official narrative to back up their claims.
Only when they have done so satisfactorily can you ask Kempe and others who think like him to explain why the official narrative is correct.
Please remember what our friend Mr Scorgie used to ask for : links, sources and reasoned argument to back up claims.
My word is fine, habby.
It’s yourself and your racist chums who always seem to be having problems with truth.
Sometimes it’s simple stupidity of course, but I’ve found that stupidity and lying often go together.
And I’m afraid we’ve seen quite a bit of that today, haven’t we.
Look for it yourself. You’re a bit too much of a lazy shit, for my liking. Do a bit of work for a change. Don’t always be parasiting off others.
“sorry but if that was some sort of half arsed apology”
It was no apology at all – I make a point of not apologising to those who post doctored cartoons which they claim to be offensive, whose raison d’etre is to hypocritically stir up hatred. The truly offended do not behave in such a manner. I again note your facile attempts to avoid the questions raised – but please carry on, the more you do so, the more obvious your behaviour becomes.
Mary
“A reminder of de Gaulle’s time.
‘Although the military campaigns led against Algerian nationalists were complete successes, with most prominent FLN leaders killed or arrested and terror attacks effectively stopped, the brutality of the methods employed failed to win hearts and minds in Algeria, alienated support in Metropolitan France and discredited French prestige abroad.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War”
_______________
Could you just remind us of when
1/. the Algerian war started
2/. General de Gaulle became President
3/ the Algerian war ended?
I hope those questions are not too facile for you.
Testing, testing, testing (this time without a web site URL, but a Twitter URL), in the hope that I can escape Spamalot-land.
And I’ll say again that I would like all Christians on this thread to apologise for the Breivik massacre in Norway.
(Mods, I appreciate your help thus far, but if this one doesn’t get through I think we should call it a day. I’ll go back to just being a reader of Craig’s blog.)
“It’s yourself and your racist chums who always seem to be having problems with truth.”
So as well as being autistic we are racist – you really are a nice piece of work.
“Look for it yourself. You’re a bit too much of a lazy shit, for my liking.”
_____________
What on earth makes you think I’m on here for you to “like” me, Herbie?
You have a fine opinion of yourself, I must say! 🙂
Anyway, I note that you are unable to supply the French original and the English translation and will consider your “response” to be strangely evasive as well as uncouth.
Resident Dissident
Don’t worry about Herbie, Macky and the others in their congerie. They are obviously on the run again – as always when they receive a few salvoes from yourself, me, Kempe and Anon at the same time.
Kempe
“orbiting blue teapot time” – is that a reference from Alice in Wonderland by any chance?
If so, we all know by now who the Red Queen is, but who is….the Mad Hatter?
“But there were several who were quick to say that it wasn’t and that this was a false flag.”
“It is therefore up to those who started off this discussion by casting doubt on the official narrative to back up their claims.”
___________________________________
Habb
Can you prove it wasn’t a false flag?, can they prove it was a false flag?
I’m afraid it is you who has it back to front, an no matter who comments first, as whether its a genuine or false flag incident, neither you, nor they, can provide sufficient enough evidence at this time, to say either way.
Ergo, why do you and your friend Kempe feel the need to mock and ridicule such theories.
The only thing we know for sure is that those who voiced their theories on here, did so knowing that, previous incidents might have been dubious, which allows for reasonable doubt, for any newer incident.
And with all due respect, isn’t that a plausible assumption.
Feel free to add anything you may find, that brings substance to the matter.
Thanks.
Macky
Another question – are you on some sort of commission for posting links to cartoons that you consider offensive (and which to be honest don’t particularly appeal to me although I don’t think they can be used as a facile justification (or explanation in your speak) for murder? You don’t need to say who is paying you.
Resident Dissident; “It was no apology at all”
Well yes, it takes a degree of integrity that you seem to lack.
Resident Dissident; “I make a point of not apologising to those who post doctored cartoons”
LOL! Guess “doctored” is an improvement over “forgery”, next it will be “lifted” or “cropped” or “edited” ! Keep shuffling those weasel wordings !
Resident Dissident; “which they claim to be offensive, whose raison d’etre is to hypocritically stir up hatred”
“claimed” ? Are you saying that the CH cartoons are not offensive, and meant to stir up hatred ?!
Resident Dissident; “The truly offended do not behave in such a manner”
If you refer to the original post, my comment was a cut & paste of a very good question somebody raised on Medialens; it’s only in response to your false accusations of forgery, & then differences that prompted the reposts, so as to prove you are talking out of your backside;
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/01/terrorism-and-nuance/#comment-501468
“Can you prove it wasn’t a false flag?, ”
Can you prove that it wasn’t done by aliens from another planet?
Before ROS becomes a convert to the works of David Icke perhaps he should first acquaint himself with Occam’s trusty razor.
RoS
“I’m afraid it is you who has it back to front, an no matter who comments first, as whether its a genuine or false flag incident, neither you, nor they, can provide sufficient enough evidence at this time, to say either way.”
_______________
onanism
Well, I do think that if you make an assertion you should back it up without having to be asked; accordingly, the question of who posted first is in fact relevant.
And if the false flag merchants cannot provide evidence, why do they post – is it just attention seeking and/or a desire to impress their fellows with their “acuity”?
Enough about the distractionists.
It appears that a senior policeman leading the investigation into Charlie Hebdo has committed suicide.
His name is Helric Fredou, 45 years old.
Can’t see anything on that in English on Google news. Is that a Google issue or hasn’t the story appeared in English yet. Dunno.
It would be a surprise that English language media who have been covering this story 24/7 wall to wall, wouldn’t cover something like that, but perhaps they’re waiting for instructions.
It’s English language media who make most of the running on these things. HQ, if you like.
Let’s see.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=Helric+Fredou
That’s it Macky hide behind your friend on Medialens as a means of avoiding the questions raised. Many of the reposts were entirely unnecessary to the point you were making – and the original post, and as for the original question on Medialens how low do you wish to go.
The Vyshinsky’s of this world of course never answer questions
http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/limousin/2015/01/08/limoges-suicide-d-un-commissaire-de-police-626916.html
Herbie
The guy wasn’t leading the investigation – senior policemen from the across France were involved in the investigation he was just one of them from Limoges
He had a history of depression and recently lost one of his colleagues
The English media are probably trying to get at the full facts before they see whether it is really related to the CH case
Of course it doesn’t stop you trying to use it as evidence for your crackpot theories/insinuations.
You don’t have questions, Res Diss.
You have only distractions, which have been comprehensively torn to shreds, despite the best efforts of habby and others in trying to rescue you.
They always seem to pop up when you’ve dug yourself another hole.
You do that so often you should really get a job down the council.