There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.
It is impossible to stop evil from happening. Simple low tech attacks by individuals, a kind of DIY terrorism, cannot always be pre-empted. If you try to do so universally, you will end up even further down the line we have gone down in the UK, where people are continually arrested and harassed who have no connection to terrorism at all, often for bragging on websites. These non-existent foiled terrorist plots are a risible feature of British politics nowadays. Every now and then one hits the headlines, like the arrests just before Remembrance Day. Their defining characteristic is that none of those arrested have any means of terrorism – 99% of those arrested for terrorism in the UK in the last decade – possessed no weapon and no viable explosive device.
In fact the only terrorist in the last year convicted in the UK, who possessed an actual bomb – a very viable explosive device indeed, was not charged with terrorism. He was a fascist named Ryan McGee who had a swastika on his wall and hated Muslims. Hundreds of Muslims with no weapons are locked up for terrorism. A fanatical anti-Muslim with a bomb is by definition not a terrorist.
I am assuming that the narrative that Charlie Hebdo was attacked by Islamists is correct, though that remains to be proved. For argument, let us assume the official narrative is true and the killings were by Muslims outraged at the magazine’s depictions of the Prophet Mohammed.
It is essential to free speech that it includes the freedom to offend. That must include the freedom to offend religious belief. Without such freedoms, the values of societies would freeze. Much social progress has caused real anguish and offence to some people. To have stopped Charlie Hebdo by law would have been wrong. To stop them by bullets is beyond any mitigation.
But that doesn’t make the unfortunate deceased heroes, and President Hollande was wrong to characterise them as such. Being murdered does not make you a hero. And being offensive is not necessarily noble. People who are persistently and vociferously offensive are often neither noble nor well-motivated. Much of Charlie Hebdo‘s taunting of Muslims was really unpleasant. That they also had Christian and other targets did not make this any better. It is not Private Eye – it is a magazine with a much nastier edge. I defend the right of Charlie Hebdo to publish whatever it wants. But once the shock dies off, I do hope a more realistic assessment of whether Charlie Hebdo was entirely admirable or not may be possible. This in no way excuses the dreadful murders.
The ability to say things that offend is an important attribute of a free society. Richard Dawkins may offend believers. Peter Tatchell may offend homophobes. Pussy Riot offended Putin and the Orthodox Church. This must not be stopped.
But that must cut both ways. Abu Qatada broke no British laws in his lengthy stay in the UK, but was demonised for things he said (or even things newspapers invented he had said). Most of the French who are today in solidarity for freedom of expression, are against people being able to express themselves freely in what they wear. The security industry who are all over TV today want to respond to this attack on freedom of expression by more controls on the internet!
I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn, and so we should. But the amount of nuanced thought in the mainstream media is almost non-existent. What will now happen is that conservative commentators will rip individual phrases from this article and tweet them to show I support terrorism. The lack of nuanced thought is a reflection of a general atmosphere of anti-intellectualism which has poisoned public life in modern western society.
KOWN
“‘This being the case, you should be opposed to more road safety legislation being put into place.
Would you agree with that proposition, KOWN?’
No, because it is a typical piece of diversionary Habbabkukian sophistry, and I’m not coming out to play.”
___________________
I don’t think so; it is just an example of where your “logic” should lead you.
Anyway, I thought you try to present yourself as a sophisticated sort of guy on here? Not a Herculean task, I will admit.
Puzzled
“OK so they made Charlies of us all, but where is the third man, the getaway driver if its not the 18 year old?”
_______________
What makes you think there was a third person there? Is it conceivable that one of the brothers might have driven?
Resident Dissident
‘I shall be moving your book to the appeasers section in Waterstones.’
Oh no! Up there on the same shelf as Lord Haw Haw and Prince Philip’s cousins!
Don’t you find it ironic that you puff yourself up as a defender of freedom of speech but your first instinct when I say something you disapprove of is to attack my books?
RoS
“The Tory Manifesto, in May includes a pledge on a 40% support threshold for strikes in core services, which includes health, education, transport and emergency service workers.
As it now stands strikes are valid if they’re backed by a simple majority of workers, regarding turnout.
Historically a 40% turnout would have seen three quarters of previous strikes invalid, in the last four years.”
__________________
Well, I certainly defend the right of people to go on strike.
But strikes in the public sector are, by definition, serious affairs which can potentially hit hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who have nothing to do with the strike; there are not the same as a strike in an individual business or company where the “victims” are the business’s balance sheet and profit and loss account.
Hence they should not be undertaken lightly.
It does not seem unreasonable that a certain percentage of the union(s) concerned should have to express their positive support for a strike. After all, at present, it is sufficient to have a small majority within , say, a 16% turn-out for the devmaring of
RoS
“The Tory Manifesto, in May includes a pledge on a 40% support threshold for strikes in core services, which includes health, education, transport and emergency service workers.
As it now stands strikes are valid if they’re backed by a simple majority of workers, regarding turnout.
Historically a 40% turnout would have seen three quarters of previous strikes invalid, in the last four years.”
__________________
Well, I certainly defend the right of people to go on strike.
But strikes in the public sector are, by definition, serious affairs which can potentially hit hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who have nothing to do with the strike; there are not the same as a strike in an individual business or company where the “victims” are the business’s balance sheet and profit and loss account.
Hence they should not be undertaken lightly.
And it does not therefore seem unreasonable that a certain percentage of the union(s) concerned should have to express their positive support for a strike. After all, at present, it is sufficient to have a small majority within , say, a 16% turn-out for the declaring of a strike to be deemed legal.
After all, unions now have to call postal ballots. If 84% of the membership does not bother to give an opinion – cannot be bothered to give an opinion – one cannot interpret that as consent.
Puzzled, 2.34p.m. An anomaly, of course. Plenty of those to be found around all terror attacks. Just a coincidence, rather than an anomaly, naturally.
RoS
“Habb.
Well you are asserting that those who provide an alternative theory are wrong, you call them false flag merchants, who cannot provide evidence, have you provided evidence to contradict them?”
________________
I should certainly attempt to do so if they were to set out cogently and in detail the evidence on which they built their theory at the same time as they present that theory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Resident Dissident; “If Jemand’s link is a forgery then of course it should be removed”
That was not the point I was making, and is just a echo of Craig”s “I condemn, you condemn, we all condemn”; the point was given YOUR habitual eagerness in running to the Mods, demanding for the removal of fake and/or racist links, why have you not done so in the case of Jemand’s proven fake, and very racist link ?
Anon; “believing that you know better from your internet “sleuthing” than the professionals on the ground, that with a few clicks on google you can discover the “truth” from your bedsit”
Coming from somebody who recently lifted a long list of “polls” iro Muslim attitudes from the internet, that fell apart & got exposed as a deceptive fraud as soon as Clarke took the trouble to look into the very first two links, this is real genius satire !
Jemand; “Je sui Choudary? Non”
If you mean that we should listen to why people say what motivates them, then best start here;
http://rt.com/news/221503-paris-gunman-argues-hostages/
@Mark & Dreoilin, thank you for the introduction to the Irish journalist.
@Jemand:
People often rip into Imam Anjem Choudary. Not me. Why should this guy be abused for saying what he believes to be true? Are all his views supported by all muslims? Probably not. So what? He speaks from a position of authority as an Islamic cleric and he has a large following. I think that says a whole lot more than some Libturd parroting Islamic PR.
Jemand, don’t taint your credibility by referring to the ‘rent a rant’, honey-pot cleric and the mad mullah, that the media so loves. It’s gone past the point of debating whether he is an agent provacateur and MI5 asset.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrueU4xd2w
Are all his views supported by all muslims? Certainly NOT.
You referred him as Imam Anjem Choudary. Imam of which mosque and of which following?
Who gave his this ‘position of authority’ as an Islamic cleric when he can’t even translate simple words correctly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDHSx0AWND8
He has a large following??? what millions, thousands? I’m sorry that is just laughable. From which Muslims? Wahhabis, Salafis, Barelvis, Deobandis, Tablighhees? JI, Shias, Twelvers etc…
When he came to Birmingham to preach with just a handful of his disciples, he was heckled and lambasted for his views from everyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sNIfjmj45o
As the video below correctly asserts his followers are no more than the size of an average Asian wedding and that too at it’s peak, several years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phlHb6tHRGU
@Habbabkuk, It may have escaped your noticed, but Craig’s opening paragraph addresses your constant bewilderment as to why people here don’t often post about situations over which we have no control, pay special attention to the last sentence;
“There is no question to which the answer is to wander round killing people. It takes a few words or keystrokes for any right thinking person to condemn the killings in Paris today. But that really doesn’t take us very far.”
A completely new phenomena in Norwich today, on a sunday. A far right polish group, all seven of them, was demonstrating for the release of the Golden Dawn leader imprisoned in Greece.
faces covered to keep their jobs, this is a first in Norwich and I’m surprised that there is not a single policeman to be seen, what what.
http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/far_right_demonstration_at_norwich_station_1_3912479
John Goss – a more unfortunate outcome of a million strong march is that it may only encourage more attacks.
17 westerners are gunned down in a western country – and huge marches are the outcome. Ten thousand times that number die in Syria and where is the march?
Indeed some the world’s leaders who have stoked the flames in Syria lead today’s protest. The sanctimonious hypocrites like Cameron who voted for the Iraq war – the very thing which ‘radicalised’ these men. The French establishment which proclaims “freedom” – though not to dress as one chooses if one is a Muslim woman. The establishment which created the disintegration of Libya and has supported war, not peace, in Syria.
They have called it “The French 9/11”, “Three days of terror” and so on. I doubt the difference in impacts will go unnoticed.
It looks like this article is a re write of previous stories, it could be true, or it could be the clarion call for more actions against Assad, neatly parcelled with Hezbollah, Iran and North korea.
Off course all of this comes from spying on phones and multichannel traffic, were UK listening posts in Cyprus involved in this, by monitoring sub sea communication traffic.
“But the clearest proof that it is a nuclear facility comes from radio traffic recently intercepted by a network of spies. A voice identified as belonging to a high-ranking Hezbollah functionary can be heard referring to the “atomic factory” and mentions Qusayr. The Hezbollah man is clearly familiar with the site. And he frequently provides telephone updates to a particularly important man: Ibrahim Othman, the head of the Syrian Atomic Energy Commission. ”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/evidence-points-to-syria-still-working-on-a-nuclear-weapon-a-1012209.html
The Daily Telegraph’s David Blair has told Jayne Secker that the presence of both Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is an “act of symbolism” in itself, and something that won’t be lost on audiences in the Middle East.
Sky News
‘Don’t you love farce?
My fault, I fear.
I thought that you’d want what I want –
Sorry, my dear.
But where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns.
Don’t bother, they’re here.’
http://artists.letssingit.com/stephen-sondheim-lyrics-send-in-the-clowns-ms8d5sh
Video:Campaign demands accountability for Palestinian children killed by Israel Defence of Children International/Palestine
No more forgotten lives: This is heart wrenching video putting human face on such inhumane actions. Its hard to even fathom the pain those families must feel and made worse by the lack of justice they receive.
http://www.nomoreforgottenlives.com/#20
Here Lies My Brother
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGo4Z7-Pmbo
Talking of the Telegraph, has Ba’al seen this;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11337856/How-Tony-Blair-Inc-spent-57-million-in-four-years.html
As penance for my crime in hastily posting a false link without having first authenticated it, I am posting this to assuage the hurt feelings of various Libturds. I hope you appreciate the gesture.
Anyone a fan of John Howard, “man of steel”, ex-PM of Oz?
http://theaimn.com/complaint-john-howard-international-criminal-court/
Mary – Netanyahu leading a march against assassinations – how absurd. He’s a worse murderer by far than the three men they are marching against.
Jemand.
Are you German, by any chance? and what did you think of the anti-Muslim/immigrant marches, throughout Germany last week.
If so, in your eyes has Chancellor Merekel, and the whole of Germany for that fact, become an apologist country.
Thanks.
I am not a knee-slapping, sausage eating Hun as some here would have you believe, RoS.
I wasn’t aware of anti-muslim/immigrant marches in Germany. The news here reported a big “multicultural/tolerance” march or festival. I was amazed at first but it seems to make sense when you read about the German finance minister preference for a go-hard immigration program that meets the needs of the business community and the economic endless growth cult.
Germany has not been in any position to be grandstanding on social issues for the last 65 years. It has a burden which reminds it to keep its mouth shut most of the time. Although, Merkel did state a couple of years ago that multiculturalism has failed, tho’ I don’t think she followed that up with an alternative. I was quite surprised by her admission.
Germany needs France to lead the way. And Britain might need France to take the brunt of the damage before it finds the coward’s courage to declare a credible response to escalating social unrest.
Hang on. Yes, there was reports of an anti-muslim protest rally that was put down(?) by the police(?). I’ll need to read up on that to refresh my memory.
The latter event in support of Libturd pet projects came later.
With so many major incidents occurring, it’s hard to keep up with the news.
Boko Haram are alleged to have sent a 10yr girl into a Nigerian market place with an explosive vest, resulting in the deaths of up to 20 people. These kinds of incidents create a blur of global calamity.
Jemand.
Thanks you for your candour.
……………………….
Meanwhile.
Habb.
This one is for you.
If its not to much to ask,could you, or anyone else for that matter of fact, give me an honest opinion of it.
Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAk5G9x9Jdw#t=43
.. as latter events usually do.
That video you posted, RoS, shows some pretty chaotic activity. To a layman’s eye, it looks somewhat unprofessional.
The initial flash inside the store, would be, I expect, a stun grenade.
The heavily geared up cops where probably readying to storm the building and the guy firing off those rounds might have been shooting rubber bullets to shock/stun everyone inside the place.
Remarkable that he was firing off behind the other cops although perhaps it was planned that way so the gunmen wouldn’t see the use of a firearm that might have resulted in an immediate retaliation with real ordnance.
Conclusion? Possibly an unexpected strategy mixed with some incompetence and over excitement explains the images. It wouldn’t be the first time that cops react strangely to a situation.
Thank you Jemand, for your opinion.
Its is remarkable, to say the least, that he didn’t hit any fellow officers, firing from that distance, and through a crowd of bodies.
“@Mark & Dreoilin, thank you for the introduction to the Irish journalist.”
Macky, he’s not a journalist as far as I know. He describes himself as an “independent political analyst”. I have no idea what he does 9 – 5.
https://twitter.com/broadfordsoviet
NATO’s civilian figurehead Jens Stoltenberg this week urged Russia to be a partner against terrorism. He was speaking the day after the deadly gun attack on a magazine in Paris where 12 people, including three police officers, were killed by assailants purporting to be affiliated with radical Islamists.
During a visit to Germany, the NATO general secretary called upon Moscow to be “an ally in the fight against terrorism” – adding: “We think it is important that Russia, which is our biggest neighbour in Europe, and NATO are working together on important issues like fighting terror.”
Well, how about that for a screeching U-turn? After all, has it not become NATO policy, since the Ukraine crisis blew up last year, to terminate all security co-operation with Russia in a bid to ostracise the latter?
Only a few weeks ago, Stoltenberg and other NATO officials were accusing Russia of being the biggest threat to security in Europe, asserting without evidence that Moscow has aggressive designs on Ukraine, the Baltic states and other eastern European countries.According to NATO, Russian leader Vladimir Putin is on a revanchist revamp of the Soviet Empire, casting a sinister spectre over the entire continent.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/10/nato-trips-on-own-lies-with-u-turn-on-russian-aggressor.html
“Macky, he’s not a journalist as far as I know.”
Oops, I take that back. I’ve just seen him described on RT as “journalist and author”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfcJT91Z7w&feature=youtu.be
This is a great piece from South Africa.
Am I Charlie?
Ben Cashdan
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2015-01-09-am-i-charlie/
Ben Cashdan is a filmmaker and television producer based in Johannesburg. He produces South Africa’s town hall discussion programme “The Big Debate”. Previously he was an economic advisor in the Mandela Presidency
“The voice of Gerry Adams was played by an actor”