Honoured to give the keynote speech at Amnesty’s conference on torture in London yesterday. Then dashed back to Edinburgh for a very romantic evening with Nadira – and Cameron!
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Phil; “Well there you have it. This is where we fundamentally disgree. You refuse to call an elitist mass murderer for what he is.”
Do you have comprehension problems ? I said it comes with the territory, ie yes he probably is a mass murderer in the same sense that Obama or Hollande or Cameroon are.
Phil; ” You attack anyone who does. You insist on a lie.”
I don’t insist on lies, but I do attack lies; if you disagree, please provide examples.
Phil; “You cannot challenge the rule of insane elites by cheerleading another insane elite. It’s really that simple.”
Is it not rather daft to argue this, considering what is at stake right now; Russia may soon be in a war with NATO, and if the thought of turning Russia into another Iraq/Libya failed state doesn’t concern you, then think of the real possibility of the war going nuclear; if you survive then you can consider “challenging the rule of the insane elites” all you like in your new underground home ! However it will still be just as pointless as it is discussing it now, but at least it won’t cause any further harm then !
So, yes IT IS really that simple !
“Phil: “Do you agree that Putin is a mass murderer who ruthlessly enforces the rule of a wealthy few?”
That probably comes literally with the territory in certain countries, including many in the West;”
___________________
Dear oh dear, Macky – is that really the best you can do? You’ll be busted down to private again if you carry on like that.
“..in certain countries, including many in the West” – can you name a few of those “many countries in the west”, Macky?
You know, those “many countries in the West whose leaders are mass murderers”.
Off you go, Macky.
“Newcomer” = sockpuppet.
Mary
“Gosh. He is worked up about the sexual abuse of children isn’t he.”
_____________
Yes, it’s probably because I have children.
Right.
You’ve got two insane elites.
One has enough power to dominate the planet, should they rid themselves of the opposing insane elite.
The other insane elite can’t dominate the planet, but can quite effectively hold off the other insane elite, for a while, from dominating the planet.
That’s where we’re at.
So, if the big insane elite manages to dominate the planet you get insane elitism worldwide.
If the smaller insane elite manages to hold off the big insane elite what you get is cooperation.
That cooperation is necessitated by the fact that the smaller insane elite isn’t capable of dominating the planet.
That’s called working with what you’ve got.
You can see this at the moment in the way the US has complete contempt for international law and institutions, whereas Russia is very careful to stick as closely as possible to them.
Keep it simple, Macky.
These fuckers aren’t that bright.
But they’ll use any complexity to twist what you’re saying.
Phil is a teenager. Hates all govts and somehow thinks he can fight them all. But he can’t. That don’t matter so much. He just enjoys the process.
Him and his mates, heroes of the revolution.
Anyway, see ya later.
Herbie
So your only choices are:
1) A world dominated by one insane elite.
2) A world dominated by two bickering elites.
This is ludicrous thinking. Not only is the idea that we have two insane elites a farcical wrong but can you not consider that there is, at the least, a third choice: to oppose all insane elites.
You want one insane elite to tackle the rule of an other insane elite. This will not stop the rule of insane elites.
This is you: The king is dead. Long live the king!
Perhaps your thinking is borne from your inability to imagine a world not dominated by7 elites. Perhaps this is reinforced by your own personal lack of taking action. May I recommend you start taking action to oppose our local elites rather than cheering for another insane elite on the other side of the planet. Perhaps then you will feel less powerless and thus stop wishing for another insane elite to save you from the rule of insane elites.
Or perhaps you just love Putin.
“You know, those “many countries in the West whose leaders are mass murderers”.”
………………….
Erm…
They’re not hard to find
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/57-years-ago-u-s-britain-approved-use-islamic-extremists-topple-syrian-government.html
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
http://web.archive.org/web/20080203204207/http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Report_reveals_Vietnam_War_hoaxes_f_01082008.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3674533.stm
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/5-hours-after-the-911-attacks-donald-rumsfeld-said-my-interest-is-to-hit-saddam-he-also-said-go-massive-sweep-it-all-up-things-related-and-not-and-at-2.html
I could add quite few more but I can’t be arsed.
Putin is, a murdering dictator, but the west has, and has had, its fair share as well.
“So your only choices are:
1) A world dominated by one insane elite.
2) A world dominated by two bickering elites.”
No. The choices are:
1) A world dominated by one insane elite.
2) A world dominated by no insane elite.
Herbie
More aggressive aloof bluster.
You are correct I do want to ultimately see the end of all governments. You are also correct I do work towards this. However, I do not expect to see it in my lifetime (cause I am very far from a teenager).
I have had many years listening to unimaginative belligerent statists. May I recommend you familiarise yourself with anti authoritarian history. The guide mentioned by Iain unfortunately starts after the 100,000+ years of non-hierarchical human civilisation that preceded the neolithic but even so it will open your eyes.
https://libcom.org/files/anarchy-graphic-guide-clifford-harper.pdf
Herbie
FFS. You are all over the place. You said:
“So, if the big insane elite manages to dominate the planet you get insane elitism worldwide. If the smaller insane elite manages to hold off the big insane elite what you get is cooperation.”
We have had a long, long time of a world dominated by various elites. You might have noticed it does not lead to cooperation. It leads to constant war and oppression as the elites try to be more elity.
Phil, I presume you know the old saying about a mushroom.
RobG
I do not.
“You are correct I do want to ultimately see the end of all governments. You are also correct I do work towards this.”
Well, bully for you.
Whilst we’re waiting for you and your chums to deliver us to paradise, I hope you don’t mind the rest of trying to get the best deal in the meantime.
If you look at Chomsky or Finkelstein on Palestine, you’ll find that they work towards what possible and available.
Other variants are pushing for what’s already acceptable etc.
Chomsky has anarchist leanings but he’s practical in the current as well.
Your argument amounts to nothing actually, other than a sense of purity and superiority in not dirtying yourself by exposure to the real world, and a joy in emphasizing that by slagging everyone else off.
You’ve done that with Craig too.
He’s just not as pure as you.
You little rebel.
“Phil, I presume you know the old saying about a mushroom.”
Yes, he was a fun guy.
Phil, kept in the dark and fed shit.
Herbie
More bluster with a claim of support by authority. You are just resorting to name calling.
I almost certainly know far more about Chomsky’s anarchism than you. Of course I am not an internationally known voice and can thus afford the uncomprmising stance he cannot. I also disagree with him on things.
One thing I can tell you is that Chomsky agrees with me on Putin. Chomsky does not in any way support Putin’s regime but does acknowledge that he is subject of NATO propaganda.
RobG
OK. What’s your point?
“We have had a long, long time of a world dominated by various elites. You might have noticed it does not lead to cooperation. It leads to constant war and oppression as the elites try to be more elity.”
You mostly get balances of power. It’s generally the imbalance that cause the problem.
But today, we have laws and institutions.
The Western insane elite for example wants a primacy of corporations to rule the whole planet and they will do so should the US prevail.
The other insane elites don’t have that option and will of necessity have to accept less than they would desire.
It’s kinda obvious that it would have to be more cooperative when there’s more balance.
So outline your plan for anarchy, then Phil.
Is it a before or after the deluge kinda thing you’re thinking of?
Later.
I’m off looking for some insane elite thing down the pub.
@Phil
The boys in blue recently saw off Russian jets from the Cornish coast!
It’s such clumsy/primitive propaganda that it makes me embarrassed to be a British passport holder.
What the feck has happened to my country?!
Herbie
“You mostly get balances of power. It’s generally the imbalance that cause the problem…It’s kinda obvious that it would have to be more cooperative when there’s more balance.”
You live on cloud cuckoo land. History is constant war between elite driven nation states struggling for power.
This balance you mention. How did that work out when the USSR was a balance to the west. Was that a time of just civilisation marked by peace and equity? Just one example.
You may prefer to look at about just every other war waged by modern states.
RobG
“What the feck has happened to my country?!”
Nothing. It has long, if not always, been a war mongering, resource stealing nation. It’s business as usual.
Herbie
I will discuss my dreams and aspirations. You need to be able to at least imagine beyond an elite driven world. Read the guide linked by Iain.
RobG
And of course it was never your country.
Phil, there are lots of very bright people who read and post on this blog, and that includes you.
Forget the cynicism (and also my spelling). We all need to work together for a better world.
It’s really not that difficult, once you take the vermin out of the equation.
We can argue the toss about politics later, once we have ‘society’ back again.
RobG
You will get everywhere with a smiggen of flattery. Not sure how we get society back without politics though.
I actually think I am mentally optimistic rather than cynical.
Phil, although I now live in France, I’m a Londoner born and bred, and I can trace my UK family roots back more than 1000 years.
In the xenophobia of our time, and the fact that England is now the 51st state of America, be very careful who you proclaim as having a stake in the UK.
I’m RentaKill, pal, and want the vermin removed from the UK.
RobG
I’m not sure what you’re saying. My observation that it was never your country has nothing xenophobic about it. I am perfectly happy to say fuck the state. Fuck the UK.
The nation is a mythical conception historically developed by those who own and control the wealth to subjugate those they live off.
Even legally, which is not even what I’m talking about, here in the UK you are a subject. Nomatter how long you can trace your family back.
Phil, I agree with you. I only banged on about my UK credentials because I know that others here will try to use my French residency against me.
Although the trolls seem to have given up on me, so I must be doing something right.
A General Election in a few months time, and dare I say that it is one of the most crucial ones in recent British history. Can I ask who will Phil be voting for?