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3,629 thoughts on “Amnesty International Conference on Torture

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  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, yesterday you wrote that you’d like to see Ukrainians prevail in Ukraine. But Ukraine seems to be ideologically split. I have the impression that many in Eastern Ukraine wished to reject the new government in Kiev, and that the Kiev forces lacked legitimacy among the people there. Please expound.

    The above is the point I regard as important. Secondarily, I think this is why some commenters are calling you a supporter of fascists.

  • Mark Golding

    “No I think there should be really tough economic sanctions…

    ..and screw the poor folk trying to feed their children a crust – many humans deserve goose egg!

  • Clark

    Mark Golding, that’s why I asked the above:

    “How could this be targeted so as to hit real wealth and not economically cripple ordinary Russians?”

  • Resident Dissident

    “No I think there should be really tough economic sanctions…”

    Too ignorant to read everything else I said – I don’t think that there are many poor Russians with bank accounts and investments in the West – but then your sympathy for poor children always a saccharin front which soon dissolves when the slobbering Dauphin was creating 3m Syrian refugees.

  • Clark

    John Goss, I’m sorry I got angry, but you really are making things very difficult; your comments seem aggressive and accusatory. It really is like you’re just propagandising on behalf of Russia – which is no better than propagandising for “the West”. Clarity is needed. Please.

  • Clark

    RD, you too. I don’t know who you’re replying to; you seem to be calling either me or someone else “ignorant”.

    I know an ordinary Russian in Wembley. Freezing her bank account would adversely affect her children. She probably doesn’t have investments, but you didn’t specify that she would have to have both for sanctions to apply. Please try to be very clear and precise.

  • Resident Dissident

    Clark

    I have never proclaimed perfection for the Government of the Ukraine – unlike some here I am quite capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time in that I can criticise democratic governments at the same time as attacking those who oppose democracy. The armed putsch against the Ukrainian state and in clear breach of International accords in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, which was backed and planned from Russia, was not a democratic act. You can of course believe that the Orange Revolution and the Maidan were just US/NATO inspired revolts against corruption, vote rigging and Russian interference, inspired and led by fascists (look at their votes in the ensuing elections) and that ordinary Ukrainians had no view on those matters whatsoever – but perhaps you might wish to do your own research on the matter.

  • Peacewisher

    Why is it that (nearly) every time the Ukrainian army hits civilian areas, the BBC and other outlets try to make out that the separatists are bombing their own people? Do they really think Brits are that stupid they’ll believe anything. Mugs, maybe, Phil, but only to a point.

    Perhaps I misunderstand the media… perhaps they are doing it with irony! They still get paid by their corporate masters, and the British people can still read between the lines.

  • Resident Dissident

    Clark

    The comment was clearly aimed at the Putin sycophant and not yourself – as for your ordinary Russian in Wembley – she should soon be able to demonstrate the legitimacy of the source of funds paid into her account and have it unfrozen if that is the case.

  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, you are losing other readers’ support through your acrid and superior language. Really, remarks about people’s ability to “walk and chew gum” are unhelpful.

    So far as I know, both sides acted undemocratically. I thought one of the new government entered the government chamber wielding an automatic weapon. Sorry, my brain is merely human. No, I don’t know the distribution of political views on the new Ukrainian government; and none of us can quantify the knowledge of all the readers, who far outnumber us commenters. Please be considerate and post links to evidence. I know you do sometimes, but if commenting is worth doing at all, then it’s worth doing well.

  • Clark

    RD, your income might be completely legitimate. Down here with the dregs of society, people are worried about doing a little work on the side, selling a little bit of cannabis, etc. etc. These people are not warmongers. A better suggestion is needed. Being poor has been effectively criminalised for over a decade in the UK.

  • Parky

    The second hatchet job on UKIP by state controlled media airs tonight on BBC2 and has been widely publicised by mouth-pieces other than them. This comes after the one last Monday by Channel 4, a poorly produced ‘mockumentary’imagining the dystopian future created if UKIP ever got to power, not that that is ever likely to happen. However, it seems Nigel does have the Establishment on the run, it will be an interesting General Election and everything is up for grabs.

  • Resident Dissident

    Perhaps those who don’t want tougher economic sanctions or military action to enforce Putin to comply with international agreements might suggest what alternative measures they would wish to see – my guess is nothing, because like Mr Goss they have no problem with Putin’s Russia restoring the old “sphere of influence”. There are many problems in the post Soviet republics – but having seen not a few I do know that the one common factor is not to see a restoration of their old Soviet masters, even among those who are their ideological ancestors.

  • Peacewisher

    @RD. Regarding Crimea. The west talks a load of bull about it (e.g. “brutal occupation”)

    Here’s a quote from The Saker’s blog in December 2013, before Maidan turned truly nasty:

    “To make a long story short, the Crimean authorities have officially warned that they would not allow the pro-EU thugs to dictate the future of the Crimean Peninsula. They have also told the population of Crimea to be ready to defend its autonomous status and future. It appears that unlike the lukewarm and confused pro-Yanukovich demonstrators from the Eastern Ukraine who traveled to Kiev, the Crimeans are far more determined and focused. On one hand, this is very good, but on the other, this is also very scary because if it comes to a violent standoff between the central authority (whoever will be in power in Kiev after Yanukovich) and the population of the Crimean Peninsula there is a 100% certitude that the forces of the Black Sea Fleet will get involved.

    In purely military terms, the Black Sea Fleet forces can defend the Peninsula, but that would mean a de-facto war between the Ukraine and Russia. Again, in purely military terms, Russia can easily beat the Ukraine, but the human and political costs could be horrendous, and the risks of a NATO intervention very big, especially if a crazy person like Hillary is in power in DC.

    This is stuff of nightmares and may God prevent that from occurring.”

    The way Crimea quietly slipped into Russia hands avoided this nightmare. It must have intensely annoyed the US strategists, but it stopped Russia being the bad guy… it did in my eyes anyway.

  • Clark

    RD, it seems to me that before the Maidan, uprising and change of government, Russia already had such influence as it required. Your comment please.

    So after those events, Russia had been disadvantaged. Comment please.

    So is is possible to see Russian actions not as an attempt by Russia to restore the Russian Empire or the USSR, but to regain abilities that it recently lost. Comment please.

  • Resident Dissident

    Clark

    I think you will find that when it comes to “acrid and superior language” I am much more of a recipient than a giver.

    Just a guess but most proceeds of petty crime do not go through banks accounts – only the rather more serious criminals need to use banks accounts for money laundering.

    As for sources of what happened in the Orange Revolution and Maidan any search engine will lead you accounts not written by allies of Putin. If you want a good account I’d recommend Andrei Kurkov’s (and ethnic Russian) Ukrainian diaries – his satirical novels on post Soviet corruption hit the mark as well) – or Timothy Snyder if you want some historical perspective.

  • Peacewisher

    @RD: Yes, of course there will be Russian dissidents. They are not likely to portray the leader of that country in a positive light. But this is a minority opinion. Whether you like it or not, Putin has the overwhelming support of his people in protecting his country’s “sphere of interest”.

  • Resident Dissident

    Clark

    I don’t disagree – the real question is whether Russia’s influence in Ukraine was legitimate or wanted by a large majority of the Ukrainian population – turning off gas supplies in winter (did we hear Mr Golding bleating about the suffering poor children then?), rampant corruption, rigging elections. poisoning politicians etc.etc. Being signed into Putin’s customs union was only the straw that broke the camel’s back.

  • Clark

    RD, my feeling is that the first priority is to prevent escalation. Would you agree?

    In that context, the demonization of Russia is counter-productive. Agree or not?

    To encourage Russia to calm down, Russia’s recent losses need to be assessed, quantified and acknowledged, and then alternative arrangements need to be negotiated. ?

    The above represents the incentive. Your suggestions of disincentives against Russian money in the “West” seem sensible too, but I think they need to be targeted much more precisely.

  • Resident Dissident

    “Whether you like it or not, Putin has the overwhelming support of his people in protecting his country’s “sphere of interest”.”

    Just like US Governments had the same support for interfering in their own backyard of Latin American – doesn’t make either right however.

  • Clark

    RD, regarding acrid language, I know other sin worse than you, but you are more reasonable – there’s little point in me appealing to them.

  • Resident Dissident

    “To encourage Russia to calm down,”

    And how would you suggest getting Mr Putin to calm down and stop interfering? Shower him with love and appeasement? Remember how that worked with the real Nazis in the Sudentenland?

  • Peacewisher

    It appears that a small 500 person march in Kharkov, Donbass, has been “bombed”. Two fatalities. Probably not filtered out to the mass media yet. Based on NI civil war, this could be militant separatists or a false flag, but it is predictable that Russia will be blamed.

    “Many more will have to suffer. Many more will have to die. Don’t ask me why”
    -Bob Marley

    As ever, qui bono?

  • Resident Dissident

    “Putin has the overwhelming support of his people in protecting his country’s “sphere of interest”.”

    The history of Russian leaders making such a claim while at the same time abusing the peoples (and they are not his people btw – these little slips really do give you away) human rights back at home is not a happy one.

  • Clark

    RD, I don’t know how useful the comparison is; I don’t know history in sufficient detail, and I expect the history is contested anyway.

    If you want someone to change their path, you do better to open an easier path before blocking the one currently in use. According to Ba’al, important issues for Russia entail the availability of an ice-free port, presumably both military and commercial, and a land corridor for access. There are probably others too, and I encourage you to list as many as you can think of.

  • Peacewisher

    RD: No “slips”, just stating my mind! Why don’t you all just leave Russia alone? If it wasn’t for the sacrifice of the USSR under the brutal Stalin, we’d all be living under the 3rd Reich.

    Why provoke Russia into a war that will only benefit the arms manufacturers and those who wish to rule the world?

  • N_

    I just received a note advertising this petition:

    Announce an immediate British withdrawal from NATO.

    They say:

    The worsening relations between the US and Russia risk starting a nuclear war in Europe, and the US nuclear installations in Britain are an obvious military target.

    The Soviet era ended more than 20 years ago. The NATO era needs to end too, right now.

    We call on prime minister David Cameron to announce an immediate and total British withdrawal from NATO. This is a decision for the British government, and does not require negotiation with any foreign government. We recognise that the full withdrawal of the US military from British soil will take time, but a ban on the use of US military facilities in Britain in any conflict whatsoever must come into effect immediately.

    Don’t wait until you see nuclear mushroom clouds in British skies and then wish you had signed this petition.

    This petition is not party political. Involvement and signatures are invited from all who support the aim.

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