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3,629 thoughts on “Amnesty International Conference on Torture

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  • Clark

    If you two just want to have a go at each other, please exchange e-mail addresses and do it in private. It’s just good manners, like going outdoors if you’re going to have a fight.

  • Resident Dissident

    “He is an opponent of Putin in the Liberal Democratic Party,”

    A clear demonstration if one was needed that Mr Goss knows nothing about Russian politics.

  • Clark

    RD, there are all sorts of questions I’d like to ask you, but I need a clear(ish) head in order to ask them. John Goss could probably ask better ones, but he apparently can’t be bothered, regarding insults as more useful.

  • John Goss

    “John Goss, you reveal ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by calling Resident Dissident a fascist and then linking to some propaganda video.”

    Clark it’s only a propaganda video if you can explain what is wrong with it. It says that the government in Ukraine got there by a coup d’etat (true). That Obama’s personnel (We) engineered the overthrow (true). That in terms of legitimacy the coup government has none in international law (true). That most of the valuable natural resources are in the Donbas region (true). That the real reason war was declared on these poor people was, as with Iraq and Libya, to steal these resources via puppet governments (true). You can disagree with it, but then you need to be able to argue that it is wrong?

  • Resident Dissident

    Could Mr Goss please explain what Putin means by the “vertical of power”? I’m sure Clark would like to know as well given Mr Putin has recently expanded his territory and seems keen for further extension so it would be nice to know what style of government the new territories might experience.

  • Clark

    RD, I regard the presence of Russian and pro-Russian forces in east Ukraine as proven. However, I also think the Ukrainian forces to be very unpopular with many of the people there.

    John Goss, are you prepared to engage in a discussion about facts? Some facts may be contentious, and I’m looking for evidence from both perspectives. Such a discussion would at least stand a chance of being useful, informative.

  • John Goss

    One more thing Clark. There have been more than twice as many people killed in Ukraine as in Palestine. You opposed the Israeli bombardment of Palestine. The bombardment of Ukraine was not reported (unless you watch Russia Today). It was no coincidence that these two wars started on the same day. We have evil governments in the west. If Scotland had voted for Independence we would have accepted it. Donbas did. And we did not accept it. That is the same duplicity that certain people on this blog demonstrate. No names to please you.

  • Resident Dissident

    “That Obama’s personnel (We) engineered the overthrow”

    Peacewisher has already accepted that this is not what they actually said.

    So if the Ukrainian govt has NO legitimacy in international law why is it a member of the UN and most countries have established diplomatic relations with Kyiv.

  • John Goss

    “RD, I regard the presence of Russian and pro-Russian forces in east Ukraine as proven.”

    Evidence needed. That is what the video said. Our media have said it that many times that there are Russian forces in East Ukraine yet not one shred of evidence. Now that really is propaganda.

  • Resident Dissident

    Mr Goss

    Who was doing the bombarding of Debaltsevo – where the puppet leader of the DNR claimed 3000 were killed?

  • Resident Dissident

    Evidence needed.

    Go and look at Belingcat – and then comeback when you have a proper argument rather than propaganda. As for leaving weapons that only the Russians have in a ceasefire agreement that is then ignored – of course they only did that because Putin was a gentleman. You really are something of a joke – you certainly cannot be taken seriously.

  • John Goss

    “So if the Ukrainian govt has NO legitimacy in international law why is it a member of the UN and most countries have established diplomatic relations with Kyiv.”

    For the same reason Margaret Thatcher was a friend of Pinochet. World leaders do talk to fascist dictators

    For the same reason Putin talked to Poroshenko (even though he despises him) Putin is looking for a peaceful solution. He initiated the first Minsk agreement.

  • Macky

    Resident Dissident; “Read what I said a little closer – you will find that your question is based on your own invention – as you know only too well.”

    Well your wording was rather bit ambiguous; still I’m glad to learn that you believe that the armed Coup was illegal; so does it not therefore follow that a) the Ukrainians who also believe this, are right not to accept to be ruled by an illegal regime b) Russia was right to regard the regime as unlawful & invalid ?

    Resident Dissident; “As for your thesis on ad hominem well I am glad that you are now concentrating on something where you have undoubted expertise.”

    You are being far too modest, as anybody who has been here a while will already know!

    Resident Dissident; “As for Ron Paul he is wrong as he is on most things”

    Ok, don’t do a Hab-Ad-Hominen ! Spell out where & why he is wrong in your view.

  • John Goss

    You don’t seem to understand Resident Dissident that Debaltsevo is in Eastern Ukraine, where the good citizens lived until the Kiev fascist unelected coup government sent its forces to try and smash it. They fought off these soldiers. I don’t call these soldiers fascists but conscripts (who would rather not be there). The fascists have punch-ups in parliament but you don’t see them at the front.

  • Clark

    John Goss, 12:15 am

    “it’s only a propaganda video if you can explain what is wrong with it”

    It’s clearly propaganda. It’s made from disjointed images overlaid with assertions by some Australian. It does not involve any interviews, statistics, investigations into the locals’ opinions, or anything like that.

    “That Obama’s personnel (We) engineered the overthrow (true)”

    That seems untrue. There was much popular support for a change of government, which is consistent with the history of Ukraine; we saw thousands of supporters at Euromaiden, and we have personal testimony from Phil’s friends. This could be discussed, but if all you’ll do is call RD a fascist…

    “It says that the government in Ukraine got there by a coup d’etat (true)”

    Well, what’s the difference between coup d’etat and revolution?

    “That in terms of legitimacy the coup government has none in international law (true)”

    Someone help me with international law, but if it was a revolution then I think it has legitimacy.

    “That most of the valuable natural resources are in the Donbas region (true)”

    I suspect this is true. If so, I’d expect Russia to fight over it too. As they seem to be doing.

    “That the real reason war was declared on these poor people was, as with Iraq and Libya, to steal these resources via puppet governments (true)”

    I suspect that the objectives of Russia and the objectives of the NeoCons who interfered are different from each other. Russia’s interests are pretty obvious. The NeoCons are probably just finding another front on which to weaken Russia.

    Resident Dissident, I’ve written this to John Goss, but do please address the points also. Lets see if a discussion is possible.

  • John Goss

    “If so, I’d expect Russia to fight over it too. As they seem to be doing.”

    Russia is not fighting over it. You keep saying this. Where is your evidence?

  • Clark

    RD, I accept that there was widespread support for the overthrow of the former Ukrainian government. Do you accept that US diplomatic personnel interfered with appointments within the new government?

  • Clark

    JG, Belingcat is a data gathering exercise; you should take a look. But on YouTube I’ve seen substantial military convoys; one you linked to yourself described the convoy as “Russian”.

  • John Goss

    Clark, you choose not to believe something I think because you have preconceived ideas. Tony Blair said there were no weapons of mass destruction. The media said the same. Did you believe that to be true then? I can tell you, I did not.

    People like Resident Dissident will just shrink into oblivion when the truth comes out about MH17, the fascist coup. Thankfully, hopefully, this civil-war will soon be over at great cost to mankind. I think the west will have another go at Russia. There have been scores of conflicts in which the US and its puppets have been involved since this century started. I get sick of hearing about Chechnya. Surely you can get a perspective of what is happening.

    2000–2009

    2000 – Sierra Leone: On May 12, 2000, a U.S. Navy patrol craft deployed to Sierra Leone to support evacuation operations from that country if needed.[RL30172]

    2000 – Nigeria: Special Forces troops are sent to Nigeria to lead a training mission in the county.[10]

    2000 – Yemen: On October 12, 2000, after the USS Cole attack in the port of Aden, Yemen, military personnel were deployed to Aden.[RL30172]

    2000 – East Timor: On February 25, 2000, a small number of U.S. military personnel were deployed to support the United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor (UNTAET). [RL30172]

    2001 – On April 1, 2001, a mid-air collision between a United States Navy EP-3E ARIES II signals surveillance aircraft and a People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) J-8II interceptor fighter jet resulted in an international dispute between the United States and the People’s Republic of China called the Hainan Island incident.

    2001-present – War in Afghanistan: The War on Terror begins with Operation Enduring Freedom. On October 7, 2001, U.S. Armed Forces invade Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks and “begin combat action in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda terrorists and their Taliban supporters.”[RL30172]

    2002 – Yemen: On November 3, 2002, an American MQ-1 Predator fired a Hellfire missile at a car in Yemen killing Qaed Salim Sinan al-Harethi, an al-Qaeda leader thought to be responsible for the USS Cole bombing.[RL30172]

    2002 – Philippines: OEF-Philippines, As of January, U.S. “combat-equipped and combat support forces” have been deployed to the Philippines to train with, assist and advise the Philippines’ Armed Forces in enhancing their “counterterrorist capabilities.”[RL30172]

    2002 – Côte d’Ivoire: On September 25, 2002, in response to a rebellion in Côte d’Ivoire, U.S. military personnel went into Côte d’Ivoire to assist in the evacuation of American citizens from Bouaké.[11]

    [RL30172]

    2003–2011 – War in Iraq: Operation Iraqi Freedom, March 20, 2003, The United States leads a coalition that includes the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland to invade Iraq with the stated goal being “to disarm Iraq in pursuit of peace, stability, and security both in the Gulf region and in the United States.”[RL30172]

    2003 – Liberia: Second Liberian Civil War, On June 9, 2003, President Bush reported that on June 8 he had sent about 35 U.S. Marines into Monrovia, Liberia, to help secure the U.S. Embassy in Nouakchott, Mauritania, and to aid in any necessary evacuation from either Liberia or Mauritania.[RL30172]

    2003 – Georgia and Djibouti: “US combat equipped and support forces” had been deployed to Georgia and Djibouti to help in enhancing their “counterterrorist capabilities.”[12]

    2004 – Haiti: 2004 Haitian coup d’état occurs, The US first sent 55 combat equipped military personnel to augment the U.S. Embassy security forces there and to protect American citizens and property in light. Later 200 additional US combat-equipped, military personnel were sent to prepare the way for a UN Multinational Interim Force, MINUSTAH.[RL30172]

    2004 – War on Terror: U.S. anti-terror related activities were underway in Georgia, Djibouti, Kenya, Ethiopia, Yemen, and Eritrea.[13]

    2004–present: The U.S deploys drone strikes to aid in the War in North-West Pakistan

    2005–06 – Pakistan: President Bush deploys troops from US Army Air Cav Brigades to provide Humanitarian relief to far remote villages in the Kashmir mountain ranges of Pakistan stricken by a massive earthquake.

    2006 – Lebanon, U.S. Marine Detachment, the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit[citation needed], begins evacuation of U.S. citizens willing to leave the country in the face of a likely ground invasion by Israel and continued fighting between Hezbollah and the Israeli military.[14][15]

    2007 – The Mogadishu Encounter, on November 4, 2007, Somali Pirate’s boarded and attacked a North Korean merchant vessel. Passing U.S Navy Ships and a helicopter that were patrolling at the time responded to the attack. Once the ship was freed from the pirates, the American forces were given permission to board and assist the wounded crew and handle surviving pirates.

    2007 – Somalia: Battle of Ras Kamboni, On January 8, 2007, while the conflict between the Islamic Courts Union and the Transitional Federal Government continues, an AC-130 gunship conducts an aerial strike on a suspected al-Qaeda operative, along with other Islamist fighters, on Badmadow Island near Ras Kamboni in southern Somalia.[16]

    2008 – South Ossetia, Georgia: Helped Georgia humanitarian aid,[17] helped to transport Georgian forces from Iraq during the conflict. In the past, the US has provided training and weapons to Georgia.

    2010–present

    2010-present – al-Qaeda insurgency in Yemen: The U.S has been launching a series of drone strikes on suspected al-Qaeda and al-Shabaab positions in Yemen.
    2010–11 – Operation New Dawn, On February 17, 2010, U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates announced that as of September 1, 2010, the name “Operation Iraqi Freedom” would be replaced by “Operation New Dawn”. This coincides with the reduction of American troops to 50,000.
    2011 – 2011 military intervention in Libya: Operation Odyssey Dawn, United States and coalition enforcing U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 with bombings of Libyan forces.
    2011 – Osama Bin Laden is killed by U.S. military forces in Pakistan as part of Operation Neptune Spear.
    2011 – Drone strikes on al-Shabab militants begin in Somalia.[18] This marks the 6th nation in which such strikes have been carried out,[19] including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen[20] and Libya.
    2011-present – Uganda: U.S. Combat troops sent in as advisers to Uganda.[21]
    2012 – Jordan: 150 U.S. troops deployed to Jordan to help it contain the Syrian Civil War within Syria’s borders.
    2012 – Turkey: 400 troops and two batteries of Patriot missiles sent to Turkey to prevent any missile strikes from Syria.
    2012 – Chad: 50 U.S. troops have deployed to the African country of Chad to help evacuate U.S. citizens and embassy personnel from the neighboring Central African Republic’s capital of Bangui in the face of rebel advances toward the city.
    2013 – Mali: U.S. forces assisted the French in Operation Serval with air refueling and transport aircraft.
    2013 – Somalia: U.S. Air Force planes supported the French in the Bulo Marer hostage rescue attempt. However, they did not use any weapons.
    2013 – 2013 Korean crisis
    2013 – Navy SEALs conducted a raid in Somalia and possibly killed a senior Al-Shabaab official, simultaneously another raid took place in Tripoli, Libya, where Special Operations Forces captured Abu Anas al Libi (also known as Anas al-Libi)[22]
    2014-present – Uganda: V-22 Ospreys, MC-130s, KC-135s and additional U.S. soldiers are sent to Uganda to continue to help African forces search for Joseph Kony.[23]
    2014-present – American intervention in Iraq: Hundreds of U.S. troops deployed to protect American assets in Iraq and to advise Iraqi and Kurdish fighters.[24] In August the U.S. Air Force conducted a humanitarian air drop and the U.S. Navy began a series of airstrikes against Islamic State-aligned forces throughout northern Iraq.[25][26]
    2014 – 2014 American rescue mission in Syria: The U.S attempted to rescue James Foley and other hostages being held by ISIL. Air strikes were conducted on the ISIL military base known as “Osama bin Laden camp”. Meanwhile the bombings, Delta teams parachuted near an ISIL high-valued prison. The main roads were blocked to keep any target from escaping. When no hostage was found, the American troops began house to house searches. By this time, ISIL militants began arriving to the area. Heavy fighting occurred until the Americans decided to abandon the mission due to the hostages being no where in the area. Although the mission failed, at least 5 ISIL militants were killed, however 1 American troop was wounded. According the reports, Jordan had a role in the operation and that one Jordanian soldier had been wounded as well. This was unconfirmed.
    2014-present – American-led intervention in Syria: American aircraft bomb Islamic State positions in Syria. Airstrikes on al-Qaeda, al-Nusra Front and Khorasan positions are also being conducted.
    2014-present – Intervention against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant: Syrian locals forces and American-led coalition forces launch a series of aerial attacks on ISIL and al-Nusra Front positions in Iraq and Syria.
    2014 – 2014 Yemen hostage rescue operations against al-Qaeda: On November 25th, U.S Navy SEAL’s and Yemeni Special Forces launched an operations in Yemen in attempt to rescue eight hostages that were being held by al-Qaeda. Although the operation was successful, no American hostages were secured. In the first attempt, six Yemenis, one Saudi Arabian, and one Ethiopian were rescued. On December 4, 2014, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) threatened to execute the Somers if the U.S failed to the unspecified commands. AQAP also stated that they would be executed if the U.S attempted another rescue operation. On December 6th, a second operation was launched. 40 U.S SEALs and 30 Yemeni troops were deployed to the compound. A 10 minute fire fight occurred before before the American troops could enter where the remaining hostages (Somers and Korkie) were being held. They were alive, but fatally wounded. Surgery was done in mid air when flying away from the site. Korkie died while in flight, and Somers died once landed on the USS Makin Island. No American troop was killed/injured, however a Yemenis soldier was wounded.

  • John Goss

    “JG, Belingcat is a data gathering exercise; you should take a look. But on YouTube I’ve seen substantial military convoys; one you linked to yourself described the convoy as “Russian”.”

    That’s what they do. They keep calling Russian separatists, those who would like to align with Russia, Russians. They do it often enough and a lot of people who ought to know better, like yourself, believe it. But there is and never has been one iota of evidence. Somebody on this blog was rattling on about Russian tornado systems being used in Mariupol because Poroshenko said so and insisted on their removal being written into the Minsk Protocol. So they appeased him knowing that if the weapons are not there they will be easy to remove.

  • Macky

    @Clark, your post at 12.38 is if anyhing more extreme than RD’s position; I initially thought you were just loyally taking Craig’s position, but can it be that you actually believe in what you are posting ?!

    It’s late for me now, but as I will very interested, especially as you like debunking CTs, in your squaring of your position with the points made here, so debunk away !;

    http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ukraine-and-the-new-hitler-fairy-tale-what-lies-behind-the-putin-did-it-conspiracy-theory

  • Clark

    John Goss, I’m aware of many of the incidents listed above.

    None of this changes the fact that many Ukrainians supported the Kiev revolution/coup. It is NOT clear-cut. Someone commented earlier that young people have been leaving Ukraine, and many are disillusioned by the new government. Well, if they’re disillusioned now, they must have had some hopes before, so it WASN’T just a case of US Americans paying them or telling them what to do.

    Look you have to give some credit to a popular movement that overthrew a government. They broke political representatives out of imprisonment. We should be GLAD that such things to occur when governments are unjust. We saw the videos of ordinary people within the ridiculous palace paid for by money robbed from the Ukrainian people. We saw people in the streets distributing food and singing their respects to the revolutionaries.

    It seems to me that the people’s revolution was hijacked by the US NeoCons; “fuck the EU”. It was EUROmaiden, John; the Kiev revolutionaries wanted their national culture to thrive in Europe, as many other countries’ cultures do, free from repression by a greater power. But the NeoCons hijacked it, pushed it too fast and manipulated the new government to their advantage.

    But Russia isn’t accepting any of the Kiev people’s perspective. Russia is condemning the WHOLE of Euromaiden, and organising Antimaiden – in Russia! That’s contemptuous of the Kiev Ukrainians and all they fought for. If Russia was being fair they’d be supporting Kiev’s bid for closer cooperation with the EU.

    If you stop projecting Russian propaganda you can have a proper discussion with Resident Dissident.

  • Clark

    John Goss, when you write something like you did at 12:35 am:

    “Debaltsevo is in Eastern Ukraine, where the good citizens lived until the Kiev fascist unelected coup government sent its forces to try and smash it”

    you’re projecting the Russian government’s perspective. You need to acknowledge the perspective of the Kiev public – it was the people who overthrew the government, no matter that the new government proceeded to attack east Ukraine.

    To imagine that all those people out in the streets of Kiev were just doing it in response to US money and propaganda is to fail to give them credit, to fail to respect them. It’s like when Erich Von Daniken says that Egyptians couldn’t have built the pyramids and it must have been aliens. It’s disrespectful.

    But that’s exactly what Evgueni, Uzbek in the UK, Phil’s friends in Kiev and those who know Ukrainian history have been trying to tell you about Russian nationalism – it’s disrespectful of Ukrainians. It’s racist.

  • John Goss

    Clark, the young people are leaving Ukraine because they do not want to die in Poroshenko’s/Yatsenyuk’s civil-war. They are draft-dodgers (and I agree with them).

    Yes there was disillusionment on the Maidan, not for the first time, it’s there even now, but now the fascist police are a lot stricter. But there had not been guns until Nuland and company got it started using their extreme friends. I cannot understand how anybody, especially after the Catherine Ashton/Urmas Paet leaked conversation (both from the west remember) which stated that the shots had come from their side.

    There were a lot of people who were sat at home and not on the Maidan square, a lot more than were protesting. So I ask you, if the Tottenham rioters had taken over the Houses of Parliament would you have called it a legitimate government?

  • John Goss

    “I cannot understand how anybody, especially after the Catherine Ashton/Urmas Paet leaked conversation (both from the west remember) which stated that the shots had come from their side, could believe that it was anything but a western-led coup.” Addition to finish the sentence.

  • Clark

    Dreoilin, I don’t know who Bellingcat is.

    I know that everyone here who has personal experience of Russia or personal testimony from Ukraine has been abused by a bunch of people singing an identical song straight off the Russian government’s song-sheet.

    And I find it unbelievable that Russia wouldn’t be interfering in east Ukraine. Just as unbelievable as the NoeCons not interfering via Kiev.

    And I know that there was a massive anti-Maiden demonstration in Moscow – think about that, Dreoilin. Think about people demonstrating against Irish or Scottish independence in London.

  • Mary

    Putin: War with Ukraine ‘unlikely’
    Russia’s Vladimir Putin says war with Ukraine is ‘unlikely’, and that the recent Minsk ceasefire deal is the best way to stabilise the country’s east.
    Putin: ‘Hardly possible’ Watch
    Defiant mood as Donetsk marks holiday Watch
    Why is east Ukraine hit by conflict?
    What is new Minsk agreement?
    Poroshenko bruised by retreat Ukraine crisis in maps

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31596634

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