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3,629 thoughts on “Amnesty International Conference on Torture

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  • Daniel

    Macky, it’s clear that NATO has now become a kind of self-perpetuating war machine that simultaneously creates conflict scenarios and global instability and then argues that it needs to mop up the dangers it itself creates. It reminds me of the arguments of those generals who argue for greater foreign military interventions in terms of boots on the ground in places like Afghanistan and Iraq mainly for the purpose of guarding the guardians. I think the phrase used is “managing the risks of the risk takers – a kind of consultancy management for war mongers. This is the situation we have currently arrived at in Ukraine.

  • Macky

    Glenn_uk; “Not blasé at all about it. It’s disgraceful that record keeping on major decisions in office are not kept. In itself, this is not a “smoking gun” about H. Clinton though. It looks like a stupid error of judgement on her part, just because it generates suspicion and gives teabaggers yet another reason to start foaming at the mouth.”

    You don’t think she was deliberately doing a Blair in keeping dirty, maybe even illegal shenanigans officially off the record ?

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/03/hillary-clinton-email-revelations-why-it-matters

  • Macky

    Daniel; “Macky, it’s clear that NATO has now become a kind of self-perpetuating war machine that simultaneously creates conflict scenarios and global instability and then argues that it needs to mop up the dangers it itself creates.”

    It is firstly an instrument for US hegemonic interests; but it’s also a vital part of the Military Industrial Complex, in that many people get super rich both from the support industries around it, and of course from it’s wars, as every bullet, missile, bomb etc that’s fired, every plane, tank, jeep, etc that needs updating, means profits for somebody; & more conflicts equal more profits !

  • Dave

    @RobG

    “Dave, can you give me some links? (and you should be aware that I’m well up to speed on the latest fusion research)”

    What are you talking about here Fusion which is dead in the water or LENR?

  • Clark

    Daniel,5:34 pm:

    “Will you please elaborate further on your contention that the Kremlin “appears” to bear considerable responsibility for the coup in Ukraine?”

    From the article originally linked to by Macky, now easier for me to find on my server. Note that I’ve deliberately edited this to show the Kremlin’s part in the responsibility, because that’s the part we’re discussing. Macky will no doubt howl; ear-plugs are available at the first-aid station.

    http://www.killick1.plus.com/uploads/ukraine-summary.html

    But in August 2013 Russia hit back. The Ukrainian employers’ federation, whose members account for 70% of the economy, stated that they have to conform to such extensive quality checks at the Russian border that it practically amounts to an import ban. A close economic advisor of Putin PUBLICLY stated that this was just a taste of what’s to come if Ukraine follows the ‘suicidal path’ of the EU association agreement.

    My emphasis. Putin told the Ukrainian people that he would punish them if they joined the EU. “Suicidal” – ie he threatened fatal results. This was presumably a coded message that Kremlin controlled Gazprom would turn the gas off in winter if Ukraine didn’t comply. This is a credible threat as it had been used to coerce Ukraine and other countries many times before:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_Russia#Energy_disputes

    To continue, missing a section about Ukrainian decisions:

    The story that follows is well known. With the taste of an EU-agreement on their lips, disappointed demonstrators took to the streets in Lviv and Kiev. It started relatively small with a peak of 40.000 people on the 23th of November. But when the Berkut resorted to batons and tear gas and the images were spread on a large scale through social media, the protests soon grew into the hundreds of thousands.

    So the Kremlin created the conditions, the Russian-leaning Ukrainian government attempted violent suppression of protest, and the people revolted – encouraged by US manipulation of social media, but come on – you know who your actual friends are on Facebook, don’t you? It couldn’t all have been US influence. Have a look at the various opinion polls:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Public_opinion_about_Euromaidan

  • Tony_0pmoc

    Is Craig O.K. ?

    Some very interesting posts and links.

    Clark,

    I feel that unpaid moderators should be unseen and not heard, or if they do write and moderate someone elses blog, they should do so without identifying themselves.

    Otherwise, they end up being Piggy In The Middle without any real Responsibility. I’m sure Craig very much appreciates what you do, particularly at the technical level. However, I think you are getting to far too emotionally involved, and setting yourself up for personal attack, whilst appearing far too arrogant, which escalates emotions, which can in fact be dangerous specifically to your own well being.

    Its perfectly O.K. to behave however you feel to all visitors to your own blog, and blast them away to hell, even if just because they write a point of view you don’t agree with. But this is Craig Murray’s blog, not yours.

    Blogs like this should be about the issues, and not the personalities, even if some of you have know each other for years.

    If you are not being paid, it is certainly not worth risking cracking up over it. We are all emotional beings, and vulnerable to personal attack, even if we try to pretend we are not.

    Take, it easy and become a bit more emotionally detached, and please stop ordering people about and telling them how to behave. Its just a blog. The internet is full of them.

    Chill,

    Tony

  • Clark

    It is generally the CIA that is regarded as inducing coups (with or without the use of death-squads) such as Operation Ajax against Iran and several in South America, whereas NATO is generally better known for its illegal outright wars.

    That’s not to say that there were no elements of this in Kiev, but there were clearly strong elements of popular revolution by the Ukrainian people, too.

  • Mark Golding

    As a whistleblower, former CIA officer Jeffrey Sterling went through channels to inform staffers of the Senate Intelligence Committee about the ill-conceived and dangerous CIA action known as Operation Merlin.

    Background:

    https://exposefacts.org/why-the-cia-is-so-eager-to-demolish-whistleblower-jeffrey-sterling/

    Ignore Netanyahu on Iran – I don’t think so. Timed to hamper the on-going nuclear talks between Iran and the P5+1, which are due to reach a final agreement by the end of June, plus, the recently signed military agreement between Russia and Iran, Jeffrey Stirling will go down for life, his family wasted- while a mushroom cloud of polemic opinion erupts that forces the IAEA to review it’s findings on Iran’s nuclear credibility.

    Huffington are spot-on..

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/norman-solomon/cia-evidence-from-whistle_b_6757856.html

  • RobG

    @Dave
    5 Mar, 2015 – 11:06 pm

    Dave, I am very anti-nuke, and never try to hide that.

    “LENR is the acronym of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, also universally known as Cold Fusion”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re still talking about nuclear fusion here, cold or otherwise?

    To put it simplistically, it’s alchemy: turning lead into gold, the age old dream; except that in this instance it turns lead into stuff that is far, far more poisonous and totally useless and pollutes the environment for ever.

    I also have hopes for nuclear fusion, but it will never happen until the human race grows up. In the meantime, all this bollocks about ‘cold fusion’ is nuke industry propaganda.

  • Clark

    Tony_Opmoc, if you want to help me feel better, invite me along to one of the gigs you go to. I could meet your lovely wife and friends. That would really cheer me up. I love live music. That’s why I do the Doune festival with Craig and his son.

  • Clark

    Tony_Opmoc, if Craig objects to the way I’m commenting, he has both my ‘phone numbers. If you object, you can use the comment form; that goes straight to him, I believe. Or if you like, I’ll text him that you object. Would you like that?

  • Clark

    RobG, 11:40 pm, loads of unstable isotopes are extremely useful. You can’t cut science up into “good bits” and “bad bits”.

    I’m opposed to water cooled solid fuel nuclear power reactors and nuclear weapons in particular, and most power reactors in general – these are the major sources of risk and unwanted unstable isotope stockpiles – actinide “waste”. I particularly want any reactors that depend upon a pressure vessel to be shut down as soon as possible. BWRs and PWRs are pressurised to 75 and 150 atmospheres respectively, and melt down if the pressure vessel fails. They are disasters waiting to happen.

    Are you opposed to X-ray machines, even ones to check for metal fatigue? Are you opposed to americium smoke alarms?

  • RobG

    Slow down, Clark.

    How anyone can support nuclear energy is a matter for the psychiatrists; but that’s neither here nor there.

    In the context of this blog, it seems to me that you are not doing yourself any favours.

    I don’t agree with many of the voices on here, but I would never, ever censor them.

    As others have said, this blog is a brilliant resource.

    If you try to destroy it you will be judged by your actions.

  • Daniel

    Clark,

    I guess our point of contention relates to what is regarded as “considerable” and at which point one considers to be the historical starting point. I would argue that the more serious threat than that posed by the disintegration of the Soviet Union in 1991 was the project of expanding the EU and NATO through Eastern and Central Europe and into the former USSR, pursued relentlessly by Bill Clinton and George W Bush. As George Friedman puts it:

    “Ukraine is about 300 miles from Moscow at its closest point. Were Belarus and Ukraine both admitted to NATO, the city of Smolensk, which had been deep inside the Soviet Union, would have become a border town. Russia has historically protected itself with its depth. It moved its borders as far west as possible, and that depth deterred adventurers—or, as it did with Hitler and Napoleon, destroyed them. The loss of Ukraine as a buffer to the West leaves Russia without that depth and hostage to the intentions and capabilities of Europe and the United States”

    https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russia-examines-its-options-responding-ukraine

    Like the rulers of China, India and Brazil Putin wants globalisation on his terms that allows a greater assertion of national power and a weakening of US hegemony. He is determined to keep NATO away from Russia’s borders. He fought a brief war with Georgia in August 2008 to make the point.

    Putin skilfully exploited the Syrian war to increase Moscow’s global leverage and denounce US global ambitions. So it was inevitable that if Ukraine tilted westwards, Russia would react, as Putin did, first by trying to block the partnership deal with the EU, and then, after Yanukovych’s fall, by seizing Crimea.

    Politics in Ukraine must be seen as the continuation of gangsterism by other means. Political power has seesawed between two rival gangs of oligarchs, each with their own regional bases. The 2004-5 “Orange Revolution” marked a victory for the western gang, headed by Viktor Yushchenko and Yulia Tymoshenko.

    Yanukovych, the loser in that contest, beat Tymoshenko in the 2010 presidential election, only to provoke the occupation of Independence Square in Kiev known as “Euromaidan” in November 2013 in protest against his rejection of the EU partnership deal.

    The protest movement seems to have been motivated by a mixture of opposition to Yanukovych, illusions in “Europe”, hatred of all the oligarchs and their political cronies, and the Western version of Ukrainian nationalism, which gave an important opening to the extreme right.

    Yanukovych fell because one section of oligarchs – Akhmetov and Firtash – who had been key backers of his Party of the Regions reacted to the popular mobilisation by withdrawing their support and instructing the deputies they controlled to vote for his removal by the Ukrainian parliament:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/how-oligarchs-in-ukraine-prepared-for-the-fall-of-yanukovych-a-955328.html

    The newly installed government as well as the oligarchs close to the new regime have all mutually benefited from the coup which resulted in some oligarchs being rewarded by the said government in terms of them being appointed governors of eastern provinces. The main beneficiaries though were the West. This last “colour revolution” was merely the latest twist in Ukraine’s corrupt game of Tweedledum and Tweedledee. But it was a twist too far for Putin.

  • RobG

    Mind you, if I was doomed to live in Essex I’d probably be a bit mad as well.

    Bottom line: we are all human beings.

  • Clark

    Macky, 5 Mar 11:02 pm:

    [NATO is] also a vital part of the Military Industrial Complex in that many people get super rich both from the support industries around it, and of course from it’s wars, as every bullet, missile, bomb etc that’s fired, every plane, tank, jeep, etc that needs updating, means profits for somebody; & more conflicts equal more profits !

    Actually, Russia is the biggest exporter of arms:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#World.27s_largest_arms_exporters

  • technicolour

    Macky, you say you are being persistently misunderstood. Which I’m sure is an extremely annoying feeling.

    I can’t help noticing that you often write in extremely long and convoluted sentences, which become more confusing as they go on:

    “I originally linked the article from which these quotes are from, primarily for the Odessa Massacre debate I was having with Peacewisher & RD, exactly because the last few paragraphs concerned the Odessa Massacre; indeed I did recommended the whole article as worth reading, which does not automatically mean I agree with all its points; also it should be obvious that because it tries to cover so much ground, it does so very superficially, hence all those provided follow-up links, so to quote some of these brief lines as full & definite, is misleading, and finally you have to keep in mind that the article is already six months old, so not only are certain factors better known now, but I have also linked to dozens of more up todate articles that elaborate better on the points I keep making.”

    If you want to be understood, I’d say you can afford to take the time to write in shorter sentences. This small tool can be a marvellous aid to clarity.

    Thank you.

  • John Goss

    “That’s not to say that there were no elements of this in Kiev, but there were clearly strong elements of popular revolution by the Ukrainian people, too.”

    I would agree with that. The fascists turned it to their advantage by opening fire on both sides as the article says.

    As to your interpretation of Russian involvement, the quality checks at the border were an economic measure, what used to take the form of GATT agreements. But the bit you missed out was the miserly less than a million dollars the EU was prepared to offer Ukraine for its survival and inclusion, the rest to be made up from IMF loans which would have been punitive to the populace already suffering from austerity. Russia provided Ukraine with a much better deal, 33% gas price reduction and a loan of 15 billion dollars.

    It had nothing to do with the Maidan protests, except that some, mostly in Kiev wanted to be closer to the European Union. Well now Poroshenko has signed an agreement with the EU for closer trade ties. So let’s see now that the genuine Maidan protestors have got their way how much the economy improves. It is looking very shaky at the moment, and a significant loan of 17 billion from the IMF with the same austerity ties (of which a few billion have already been paid) has not been enough to bring anything but war and starvation from the unelected western-sponsored fascist coup.

  • Clark

    Daniel, 12:33 am; thanks for the details of Ukrainian politics.

    Has it occurred to you that some of the new members of NATO may well have joined to gain protection from Russia? I don’t know if thas is so, but Russia is effectively a corrupt gangster state, and if I were living in a small country on its border I would probably vote for a political party whose manifesto was to try to join NATO.

  • Clark

    RobG, I respect CAAT. Please link to the appropriate page. And do learn to edit Wikipedia instead of just moaning about it.

  • RobG

    Or should I get back to neutron bombardment, that I know everyone reading this will be really, really interested in.

    Howabout ‘Jihad Johnny’, always good for a laugh.

  • John Goss

    Clark, calling Russia the biggest arms exporter is not quite accurate. It is one of the two biggest arms exporters, the other being the US, which even in the Wikipedia article is shown to be the biggest exporter from 2000-2012. Russia was only the biggest in 2013.

  • RobG

    Well, as well as spare batteries for my torch, I now also have extra water bottles and valium as I crouch in my cupboard under the stairs.

    I listen to the BBC religiously to tell me how to think and act.

  • Daniel

    “Has it occurred to you that some of the new members of NATO may well have joined to gain protection from Russia? I don’t know if thas is so, but Russia is effectively a corrupt gangster state, and if I were living in a small country on its border I would probably vote for a political party whose manifesto was to try to join NATO.”

    Clark, yes it did occur to me and that I would argue is almost certainly a calculation in their decision. The point I tried to make is that the situation in Ukraine must be seen in the context of two contesting imperial powers in which an ascendant one is seeking to dominate a weaker one. It seems to me to be logical that Putin would want to defend his ground against a rampant foe. It is not my intention here to act as some kind of apologist for the actions of our own rulers’ rivals. As a socialist, I recognise that imperialism is a hydra-headed beast that ultimately needs to be killed in its totality in order to save our planet. It’s sometimes easy for long in the tooth Stalinist’s on the one hand, and ardent neoliberal’s on the other, to come down in favour of one side or the other. Personally, I don’t buy that kind of ideological-based partisanship. For me, all imperialism’s manifestations have to be obliterated if we desire a world worth living in.

  • Clark

    John Goss, 5 Mar 9:57 pm:

    “It looks like you made this up about Google satellite images.”

    No, you proved my point. Look. Here’s one of the QuickBird images that you found, at full resolution. Note that a car is about 2mm by 1mm, and pedestrians can’t be recognised at all:

    http://content.satimagingcorp.com/static/galleryimages/quickbird-cabo-san-lucas.jpg

    And here’s the sott.net image from a Google overhead view. Pedestrians are easily recognised, and cars are at least 10mm by 5mm. These were taken from aircraft:

    http://www.sott.net/image/s10/205868/full/10628364_10204789575645070_105.jpg

    The QuickBird images are advertisements, so they’ve presented three of their very best pictures, taken in the clearest conditions in the brightest sunlight. The military pictures (on the sott.net link above) are taken in poorer conditions. The resolution is possibly a bit higher than from QuickBird, maybe thanks to a military spec camera and maybe a lower altitude (military satellites are considered expendable so they sometimes drop them slightly into the atmosphere for a few minutes). The smallest vehicle is probably bigger than a car, but it shows up at about 4mm by 1.5mm. But this is still not nearly as detailed as the Google pictures taken from much closer range from an aircraft.

    Did you find any combine harvesters to compare? I’ll tell you; those NATO pictures are not combines. RT and sott.net are misleading you.

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