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3,629 thoughts on “Amnesty International Conference on Torture

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  • Calgacus

    @ Clark, I note with interest that you have not responded to the link from John Goss concerning the Guardian article on the crisis in Ukraine.

  • John Goss

    Anyway, some will be glad to know I am going to take a short break. I have wasted too much time here recently.

    Clark, who is clearly lonely, does not believe that Google Earth images come from a satellite. I used to think Clark was a bit of a science boffin. Anybody who has accessed the old Google Earth may recall you could zoom in to a certain point and then it forbade you seeing more detail. Do you really think the military can not zoom in?

    Here are some images from 2014 which they will let you see. They can zoom in a lot more than you can.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/12/09/_2014_in_photos_the_year_s_best_satellite_images_from_digitalglobe.html

    I actually believe there was a build up of Russian troops on the Ukrainian border in the first quarter of 2014. But after all it is their border and a lot was happening which was a potential threat to Russian security. These were subsequently pulled back if you recall. But there have been numerous accusations of the Russian military (not volunteers) having crossed the border. I have challenged Resident Dissident and Clark to provide evidence. Resident Dissident has linked to pro-western propaganda blogs and outlets, and Clark has supported RD in his grainy combine harvester evidence. Clark believes that Google Earth satellite images are taken from a plane. I give up. Channel 4 did this report.

    http://www.channel4.com/news/russia-nato-ukraine-military-satellite-images-border

    I’m out.

  • Mark Golding

    No western leader has spoken up about the revival of fascism in the heart of Europe – with the exception of Vladimir Putin, whose people lost 22 million to a Nazi invasion that came through the borderland of Ukraine. At the recent Munich Security Conference, Obama’s Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, Victoria Nuland, ranted abuse about European leaders for opposing the US arming of the Kiev regime. She referred to the German Defence Minister as “the minister for defeatism”. It was Nuland who masterminded the coup in Kiev. The wife of Robert D. Kagan, a leading “neo-con” luminary and co-founder of the extreme right wing Project for a New American Century, she was foreign policy advisor to Dick Cheney.

    Nuland’s coup did not go to plan. Nato was prevented from seizing Russia’s historic, legitimate, warm-water naval base in Crimea. The mostly Russian population of Crimea – illegally annexed to Ukraine by Nikita Krushchev in 1954 – voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, as they had done in the 1990s. The referendum was voluntary, popular and internationally observed. There was no invasion.

    At the same time, the Kiev regime turned on the ethnic Russian population in the east with the ferocity of ethnic cleansing. Deploying neo-Nazi militias in the manner of the Waffen-SS, they bombed and laid to siege cities and towns. They used mass starvation as a weapon, cutting off electricity, freezing bank accounts, stopping social security and pensions. More than a million refugees fled across the border into Russia. In the western media, they became unpeople escaping “the violence” caused by the “Russian invasion”. The Nato commander, General Breedlove – whose name and actions might have been inspired by Stanley Kubrick’s Dr. Strangelove – announced that 40,000 Russian troops were “massing”. In the age of forensic satellite evidence, he offered none.

    The responsibility of the rest of us is clear. It is to identify and expose the reckless lies of warmongers and never to collude with them. It is to re-awaken the great popular movements that brought a fragile civilisation to modern imperial states. Most important, it is to prevent the conquest of ourselves: our minds, our humanity, our self respect. If we remain silent, victory over us is assured, and a holocaust beckons.

    You are either with us or with these Neo-Con terrorists… there is no grey area – В гостя́х хорошо́, а до́ма лу́чше – Who trusts a man carrying fire in one hand and water in the other?

  • Phil

    Oooh, looky here. After completely abandoning any commitment to leave the NATO war machine the SNP are now backtracking on Trident.

    Let alone the arming of police and building big brother databases that everyone here has been ignoring Fred about.

    The SNP, just another centralized neo-liberal party.

  • John Goss

    “It is to identify and expose the reckless lies of warmongers and never to collude with them.”

    Couldn’t agree more Mark. And with “You are either with us or with these Neo-Con terrorists”. It is black and white. Everybody on this blog sees it like that, including me. I’m with you.

    I question your translation: В гостя́х хорошо́, а до́ма лу́чше which means: Visiting is good, but being at home is better.” 🙂 I am guessing “Who trusts a man carrying fire in one hand and water in the other?” was not a translation but an additional idiom. “Кто доверит человеку с огнем в одной руке и водой в другой,” or something. I’ve not come across it before.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Dave 05/03/2015 11:24pm

    Thank you for this link, Dave, I was not previously aware of this film “Act of Killing” re the Indonesian genocide.

    Kind regards, John

  • Clark

    Evidence is disputed, but decisions must be made. We have some degree of influence over our governments’ policies.

    * What policies should be supported if the Kremlin is not concentrating military resources near the Russian border with smaller neighbouring countries?

    * What policies should be supported if it is?

    Further, an assessment of internal Russian news media should be undertaken. If the Kremlin is about to attempt expansion of its influence into neighbouring countries, it will be using propaganda to condition the Russian people to support this. This can be examined and assessed.

    Please folks, keep your minds open. Please welcome and encourage people with personal experience of Russia or countries bordering it, and people who can read Russian and/or the languages of countries bordering Russia.

  • Phil

    John ‘Marks&Sparks’ Goss
    “Anyway, some will be glad to know I am going to take a short break. I have wasted too much time here recently…I give up…I’m out.”

    Hilarious. Your grandly announced departure lasted 47 mins. You are so full of shit.

  • Clark

    John Goss, please go find some overhead photographs of actual combine harvesters and make a comparison.

    I posted a comment comparing Google views taken from aircraft compared with actual satellite imagery. I measured and compared cars on each:

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/02/amnesty-international-conference-on-torture/comment-page-14/#comment-512792

    Your latest photos from Digital Globe further confirm my assessment; try measuring some cars on that. Please John. Don’t just fight me; check my work. I’ll happily admit it if I’m wrong. I really, really want to find that RT and the media that subtend from it are being truthful because that would indicate less threat from the Kremlin; heaven knows, I want peace. But, I’m really sorry to say, what I’ve seen so far indicates the opposite; Kremlin controlled media is trying to trick us, passing off artillery as combine harvesters. Please don’t just criticise me again. Measure the cars on the photos, and find some actual combine harvesters on Google Earth or Digital Globe.

  • Phil.

    John ‘Marks&Sparks’ Goss
    “Anyway, some will be glad to know I am going to take a short break. I have wasted too much time here recently…I give up…I’m out.”

    Hilarious. Your grandly announced departure lasted 47 mins. You are so full predictably of shit.

  • Clark

    From John Pilger, quoted by John Goss and Mark Golding:

    “It is to identify and expose the reckless lies of warmongers and never to collude with them”

    I agree. And I continue to agree even if some of the warmongers are Russians.

    Just because one side is doesn’t mean the other side isn’t.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    The SNP, just another centralized neo-liberal party.

    Syriza’s not looking quite so radical now either. It’s a fair criticism, Phil, but I am still asking, what are the alternatives? The extent to which power is concentrated in the hands of unproductive financial gamblers is completely unprecedented. The global tentacles of consumer capitalism are ubiquitous, and growing daily. This week globalism’s chief sales exec, Blair, spent two days telling appreciative audiences in Vietnam to sell off state assets as fast as they could, on the grounds of increased ‘efficiency’. (We saw how efficiently private enterprise could beggar the poor in 2008, but no matter). Last week, Serbia, Albania and Romania – same message.

    By perverting Marxism to exclude the ‘ownership of the the means of production…by the people’, the neocons have erected something very efficient and self-perpetuating. Popular uprisings against this have a way of going badly wrong: peaceful ones are simply sidelined, and armed ones are overcome with the cooperation of the globalised ‘state’ – this knows few borders; money talks a common language.

    Sooo….what the hell do we do?

    (a) We decide to go down fighting*. Odds are we’ll go down, and the usual millions of innocent bystanders will get hurt.
    (b) We form alliances within the existing, permitted framework, and try at least mitigate the evil effects on the majority of the greedy, unsustainable, inherently unequal, ultimately vapid market philosophy.
    (c) Nothing.

    I’d welcome other alternatives, and I’d jump at a viable one. Till then, The SNP doesn’t look too bad to me.

    *For which we need arms. Unfortunately, as far as British consumers are concerned, globalisation hasn’t been reflected in the law yet. Although the usual requirement for money would exist even if it had.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Those look an awful lot like tanks and nothing whatsoever like combine harvesters.

    Everyone knows that the best time to harvest grain is during the middle of the Ukrainian winter…

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Satellites orbit at over 1,000,000 feet.

    Yes, Clark, but they have sensors with very long FL lenses/mirrors. Google is talking about the effect, not the method. These are satellite pics, not exclusively at visible wavelengths, but composites (see seafloor imagery on Google map) and at considerably less resolution than current military kit is capable of (believed 3-10 cm, but I may be well out of date there)

  • fred

    “Yes, Clark, but they have sensors with very long FL lenses/mirrors. Google is talking about the effect, not the method. These are satellite pics, not exclusively at visible wavelengths, but composites (see seafloor imagery on Google map) and at considerably less resolution than current military kit is capable of (believed 3-10 cm, but I may be well out of date there)”

    They are capable of directing a satellite over something like a nuclear installation and taking some very high resolution pictures.

    However if they are looking for heavy artillery in something the size of Eastern Ukraine they aren’t going to do that, they will cover ground rather than look at detail.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Sorry Fred -‘These are satellite pics..’ was intended to refer to Google Earth, not military satellite capability. The main constraint on the resolution available to mil sats is probably the time it takes to transmit the data, so what you said, yes.

  • Clark

    Ba’al, I think we may be talking at crossed purposes. The disputed artillery or combine harvester images were taken one August. And are you saying that the image on the left (linked below) was taken from a satellite? That’s what sott.net are saying and I say that’s rubbish:

    https://www.sott.net/image/s10/205868/full/10628364_10204789575645070_105.jpg

    Here’s the top result returned if you search on Google with the term:

    about google maps satellite

    Google Maps
    Provides directions, interactive maps, and satellite/aerial imagery of many countries. Can also search by keyword such as type of business.
    Find and get directions with … – ‎My Maps – ‎Sign in – ‎Google Maps Help

    My emphasis.

    For goodness sake help people see that these Kremlin controlled websites are trying to kid us all. Now why would they be trying to do that, eh?

  • Phil

    John Spencer-Davis
    ““Act of Killing” re the Indonesian genocide”

    A truly remarkable film. Genuinely chilling, creative and informing. Reading about it is interesting but do get to see it.

    I appreciate the efforts of film makers to go beyond standard documentary formats, to engage viewers with unfamiliar techniques. Have you seen Adam Curtis’ latest? It’s even more so than his previous films. Aside from his politics, which can frustrate me, I do not know how to feel about it. A 2.5 hour dreamworld of the harshest realities imaginable. A weird juxtaposition. The use of music is both brilliant and possibly dminishing. There’s so much horror in there but one scene with a disfigured child in party dress and plastic tiara being stage managed by a western tv crew sticks in my mind.

    Anyway, can’t recommend it highly enough. There’s no other film about Afghanistan like it.

    It’s on iplayer for a year.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake

    I’d love to talk about this if anyone else has seen it.

  • Clark

    Ba’al, the main constraint with looking down is almost certainly the same as that looking up – atmosphere. That’s why they site astronomical observatories on mountaintops despite the expensive pressurised staff quarters necessary, and why they bother launching telescopes into space, such as the Hubble.

    I expect the military exaggerate the capabilities of their equipment, and quote the very highest figure from within the tolerance band and under absolutely the best conditions. Every military always pretends everything of theirs is the very, very best (while keeping the actual test result secret, of course). Precision strikes? Collateral damage. Smart bombs? Yeah, we know how they turn out.

  • Clark

    Phil, I’ll watch that film later, to avoid my download limit.

    There’s another film I’d like to talk about, but you wouldn’t let me, remember?

  • Clark

    Mary, well, yes. I agree I’m trying to disrupt propaganda, including that from the Kremlin. I don’t like deception no matter where it comes from. Deception and propaganda assault autonomy by distorting free thought.

    I thought Angrysoba was wrong about some stuff, but that he was honest and fair. Recall the argument about Iran – Ahmadinejad saying Israel should be “wiped off the map”. He found someone who could translate and admitted that it had been misinterpreted. He suffered guilt by association with Larry from St Louis, but when Larry dismissed Arabs as “towelheads” Angrysoba turned on him instantly.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Phil
    06/03/2015 1:10pm

    Very good of you to post this link: I haven’t seen it but will look forward to doing so.

    Kind regards,

    John

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