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1,389 thoughts on “Wow”

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  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, 8:38 am:

    “…saker told his merry band to lie about Russian involvement in Eastern Ukraine”

    RD, I’d appreciate the link for this to save me having to search it out on old comments. I’d also appreciate links to the other evidence you mention in you 11:25 comment – John Goss isn’t your only reader.

  • Peacewisher

    @RD: Sadly, (very, very, sadly) The Guardian was cheerleading Iraq war, so why should this be seen as anything but propaganda of the “Saddam is evil and we’ve gotta get him” variety.

    Surely it is telling that all those EUSA satellites have been watching like hawks since the conflict started and no video evidence.

  • Resident Dissident

    Re Putin’s admission

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/russia-putin-crimea-idUKL6N0N921H20140417

    Re Saker

    “At this point the Russian policy becomes, I think, clear: to covertly support the resistance movement of Novorossia without yielding any proof of intervention which could be used by the AngloZionists to demonize Russia (they already do that, but with very little credibility in the public opinion).”

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/06/cui-bono/#comment-462046

  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, thanks.

    Peacewisher, I think the best way to treat media, corporate or otherwise, is to evaluate the evidence they present but ignore the opinions they project. As best one can.

  • Resident Dissident

    “The Guardian was cheerleading Iraq war”

    The Guardian doesn’t do cheerleading – its style is one of agonising hand wringing paying attention, on the one hand this and on the other hand that, before reaching a heavily qualified conclusion.

  • Peacewisher

    @Clark: Yes, of course you are right, but in this instance I think RD was choosing The Guardian as an example of a liberal, anti neo-con entity – which it isn’t, and hasn’t been for some time on world affairs. I’m sure Craig would vouch for that.

  • Peacewisher

    @RD: I read it most days in the run-up to Iraq… the editorial was supportive of Tony Blair.

  • Resident Dissident

    “RD: The 28th August images were debunked fairly quickly:”

    No they were not

    per your link

    “NATO backed up Obama’s statements with “fake” satellite images (28 August 2014) that allegedly “show Russian combat forces engaged in military operations inside the sovereign territory of Ukraine”. These statements are refuted by a detailed report of the OSCE monitoring mission stationed at the Russia-Ukraine border. The NATO reports including its satellite photos were based on fake evidence.”

    So the repudiation was based on reports from two border crossings that were manned by the OSCE – that is all you can check the Global Research article in detail if you wish). Don’t you think that if the Russians were moving troops etc into Eastern Ukraine then they might just do so by avoiding the two crossings where there were known OSCE observers???

  • Par for the course

    Its really very simple, either porky/yats or putin is the devil. So who did MH17, we must be told of the Kiev ATC communication to the flight, all will become clear.BTW – the devils tried to pull another 911 passport ploy, with new passports as well !

  • Resident Dissident

    “@RD: I read it most days in the run-up to Iraq… the editorial was supportive of Tony Blair.”

    That is not the same as cheerleading – there were plenty of other voices in the Guardian – which is of course why I read the Guardian.

  • Clark

    Peacewisher, 12:12 pm; I don’t think your link debunks the evidence of Russian involvement. The OSCE observers were monitoring two border-crossing points (major roads, I assume). The overhead images show a convoy (presumably military vehicles) travelling cross-country; they could go between the OSCE monitoring points undetected.

  • Clark

    Par for the course; 12:24 pm:

    “Its really very simple, either porky/yats or putin is the devil”

    Silly. If you know anything about “the devil” you know he will use any part of any mind that he can influence, so there’s going to be at least some evil within EVERY party.

  • Peacewisher

    Yes, I take your point, Clark. But if you remember the Minsk agreement followed shortly afterwards, as a result of Putin’s initiative… so what would be the point of sending tanks in and then negotiating a ceasefire?

  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, I worry about media (corporate and otherwise) like you worry about your computer – thought-trojans! We’re offered something wholesome, but there are exploits hidden within it.

  • Peacewisher

    Clever words I read earlier today… all wars are essentially class wars, and therefore “there are always good people on both sides”.

  • Clark

    Peacewisher, I accept that NATO/”Western” power is being projected via Ukraine.

    In Russia’s position, wouldn’t you both infiltrate armed force AND negotiate a ceasefire?

  • Par for the course

    “I worry about media (corporate and otherwise) like you worry about your computer – thought-trojans! We’re offered something wholesome, but there are exploits hidden within it.”

    IMHO – Even Gandhi could not have said it better.

  • Resident Dissident

    “so what would be the point of sending tanks in and then negotiating a ceasefire?”

    So you occupied more land at the time of the ceasefire!

    Even if all wars were not class wars there would still be good people on both sides – unless you take a racist position that some nations/races are wholly evil.

  • Peacewisher

    Not if I knew satellites were hovering overhead! But I’m much too risk averse to be any good at military strategy. I don’t know what Putin’s objectives are, but would imagine he’d want to establish a land link between Russia and Crimea. Ironically, the Minsk agreement stopped that even being a possibility…

  • Peacewisher

    RD… Yes, indeed! That was the point of the quote. We seem to have reached common ground 🙂

  • Resident Dissident

    Clark

    But would you also accept that Putin is seeking to project Russian/Soviet imperialism by hanging onto control of what he thinks still belongs to them? Perhaps we might just want to let the poor Ukrainians decide what they want?

  • Clark

    The great powers have different objectives.* Russia wants power AND peace (or at least order) within Ukraine. The “Western” hawks want power – peace and order don’t matter to them because Ukraine is nowhere near their borders (“fuck the EU”).

    * (The great powers also have internal divisions).

  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, 12:50 pm; Craig told us that the Russian fleet at Sevastopol was unimportant, but denying Sevastopol to NATO probably does matter to Russia a lot.

    I’d love for everyone to have self-determination. No one will get it while the great powers are fighting.

  • Resident Dissident

    “Not if I knew satellites were hovering overhead!”

    But then you can deny the images are what they are and their location. Perhaps some people are forgetting that for the doctrine of plausible deniability to work that the position has at first to have some plausibility – do you really think that the rebels in Eastern Ukraine could really resist and take territory from the Ukrainian army if they weren’t getting substantial support from elsewhere?

  • Resident Dissident

    “Resident Dissident, 12:50 pm; Craig told us that the Russian fleet at Sevastopol was unimportant, but denying Sevastopol to NATO probably does matter to Russia a lot.”

    I never said the Russian fleet was unimportant to Russia or Russians – and I don’t think anyone was seriously arguing that Sevastopol should be denied to Russia – part of the agreement for Ukraine to give up its share of the Soviet nuclear weapons was that a long lease be given to the Russians for their naval base in Sevastopol in return for Russia, UK and US guaranteeing the territorial integrity of the Ukraine.

  • Clark

    Resident Dissident, I think that the US was utterly reckless in precipitating the overthrow of the government in Ukraine, no matter what the various populations in Ukraine wanted. They should have continued supporting their chosen side and let elections take their course. Damn impatient Yankee-country.

    I don’t know if Russia is “projecting Russian imperialism” in this case; they only just (effectively) lost the place! I’m not sure what’s in East Ukraine that Russia may be scared of losing; there was a lot of arms manufacturing there, wasn’t there? Nuclear materials maybe?

    Such transitions should not be forced because to do so is highly dangerous.

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