Bloody hell. Read this. Brilliant.
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Bloody hell. Read this. Brilliant.
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Clark
Putin wants too be able to continue mafia operations in Ukraine and doesn’t want any “colour” revolutions to spread to Russia – he is not at concerned if this is achieved at the cost of disorder or worse in what he sees as the cordon sanitaire of his empire, be it Eastern Ukraine, Chechenya, Abhazia, Kyrgzstan, Uzbekistan or even Belarus.
I think the EU does want peace and order in the Ukraine – witness the efforts of Hollande and Merkel – and I doubt Obama is as interested in a power grap as you think. You miss the fundamental point that most Ukrainians wanted to get rid of the previous President because of his corruption and links to Putin.
Resident Dissident, 1:03 pm Edit
Would you agree that the US broke that bargain (in spirit if not in letter) with their support for the overthrow of the Ukrainian government?
Resident Dissident, is it not the case that the US has just suggested escalating the conflict by pouring weapons in to their preferred side?
“Resident Dissident, I think that the US was utterly reckless in precipitating the overthrow of the government in Ukraine, no matter what the various populations in Ukraine wanted.”
Perhaps you should credit the Ukrainian people with some intelligence and the ability to act on their own behalf. Do you really think that a President, who had rigged elections before and poisoned his opponents with Putin’s help and was awrding over hald of state contracts to his son, who sought to join Putin’s trade bloc (or Soviet Union Mark 2 as dubbed by others) with no electoral mandate – could somehow be trusted to hold free and fair elections?????
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/
Interesting conversation, but this’ll have to be my last word for now… from what I’ve read it seems that the Ukrainians pushed too far into Donbass too quickly (over confident?) and allowed themselves to be encircled. Once the tide has turned, the land grab went into reverse, and it seems that a lot of pro-Kiev forces weapons etc. went into separatists hands. This all happened before 28th August, and wouldn’t have needed military input from Russia, although I’m sure they’d get advice.
While all this was going on the citizens of Donbass were being bombed, bombed, bombed… and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t by their own army or any asymmetric Russians.
In my opinion, the vote of the Donbass people before Poroshenko got elected should have been taken into account, and a federalist arrangement could have made which would have avoided any bloodshed. But I’m a peacewisher, not a peacemaker, and I’m sure it wasn’t as simple as that!
“Resident Dissident, is it not the case that the US has just suggested escalating the conflict by pouring weapons in to their preferred side?”
The US suggests (and I hope that is where it stops) – but Russia does. Can you see the difference?
Resident Dissident, yes I agree; of course Putin/Russian power wants to hold onto the Ukrainian population to exploit them – just as the US wants to open up markets and gain production centres and educaated, low-wage workforce for the corporations that have so much influence upon the US government.
“This all happened before 28th August, and wouldn’t have needed military input from Russia, although I’m sure they’d get advice.”
It is pretty clear that the weapons used were from Russia – being in many cases newer versions that were not available to deserters from the Ukrainian army – no one serious has denied this. You also forget the lenghty ceasefire by the Ukrainian govt before they took action.
Resident Dissident, 1:25 pm
Yes I can see the difference. But Russia has lost and the US hopes to gain; can you see the difference?
These differences actually suggest similarity, yes?
“Are you still arguing that Russia hasn’t supplied the rebel’s weapons?”
I trust Vladimir Putin’s version a lot more than anything that comes out of Washington. Tell me, while Putin and Lavrov have been perpetually calling for peace, and talks round the table, who engineered the Minsk accord, what steps hasve Obama and McCain taken.
All the evidence is that the agressors in this conflict are the leaders and troops of the western-funded coup who started a war that has seen more than 5,000 corpses many of women and children in a land to which civil war was alien before. They are the fascists, supporters of Stepan Bandera.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Everything you have written Resident Dissident has been to try and give them credibility. I’m sure you would have done the same for Hitler.
“just as the US wants to open up markets and gain production centres and educaated, low-wage workforce for the corporations that have so much influence upon the US government.”
So they can exploit them like the Poles, Czechs and Balts that have suffered so much under a similar policy – it is so difficult to understand why the Ukrainians fell for that one!
Jphn Goss, that’s an awful thing to write. Will you not retract?
RD stop this nonsense, the US gave us 6in detailed pics of the Boko Haram, any such high resolution pics of Russian tanks would have made it to the FRONT PAGES of Murdoch newscorp. In fact so would the MH17 if it was Putin.
“Everything you have written Resident Dissident has been to try and give them credibility. I’m sure you would have done the same for Hitler.”
I have now turned my cheek twice to such comments from Mr Goss, the previous one accusing me of being a spook – perhaps Clark might like to comment.
On a factual level – I very much doubt that McCain has very much say on the matter – I think Mr Goss meant John Kerry.
“Is Mr Goss also accusing Amnesty International of lying?”
How dare he accuse whiter than white Amnesty International ? . . . .
http://www.blackagendareport.com/node/14610
Resident Dissident, 1:31 pm
Please, RD, I’m not saying that the Ukrainians were tricked. We know they wanted freedom from Russian exploitation. But the overthrow has precipitated violence and potential disaster. This needed to happen slower, more democratically.
“RD stop this nonsense, the US gave us 6in detailed pics of the Boko Haram, any such high resolution pics of Russian tanks would have made it to the FRONT PAGES of Murdoch newscorp”
Perhaps the US has chosen to play Putin rather differently than Boko Haram for rather obvious reasons.
Mr Goss
“I trust Vladimir Putin’s version a lot more than anything that comes out of Washington.”
__________________
On what basis?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“while Putin and Lavrov have been perpetually calling for peace”
__________________
calling is easy. Since you chose to insult Resident Dissident by linking him with Hitler (that’s a standard Stalinist ploy, by the way), you might recall that Adolf called for peace on several occasions in the late 1930s – after starting to reaem, after going into the Rhineland, after annexing Austria
This needed to happen slower, more democratically.
I think you forget Ukraine’s recent history at the hands of Putin. How long was the Ukrainian ceasefire before they took action against the rebels?
and after dismembering Czechslokaia.
You are really, in debating terms, a thoroughly filthy fellow!
Mr Goss
You are digging yourself into an ever deeper hole. Be careful.
Resident Dissident, from a friend of a friend, and also from what I make of comments by Uzbek in the UK, Ukrainians seem to hold a rather over-optimistic view of “Western Democracy”. It’s presumably an over-reaction against their local propaganda. We see similar effects, though directed the other way, in comments on this site.
Please try to keep calm despite the comment from John Goss. I did comment to him it as soon as I saw it. Good wishes to you.
I do think that Par for the course at 1:36 pm and Node at 1:40 pm have potentially serious points, too.
The Kiev Government is a western construct, from Yatsenyak/yuk to Poroshenko, the uprising which not ended where the Maidan took off, but in a Nuland, we know it all better, wester,n Timoshenko’s raxcists also have a space, mindset. Add to this a shot down airliner, various military advisor’s and trainers from places such as Israel and the US and you end up with the chaos you’ve got, one that suits all the western hawks and arms dealers.
RD might have a little interest at defending this warmongering plan by those who have form, but he forgets that Europe is not America and that thousands of individuals from all wakes of life, workers,academia, science, diplomatic staffs, from all over Europe have said a clear NO to war with Russia.
Those who say it will not come to that should realise that all of Ukraine’s eastern borders were never adopted by either Parliaments, not Russia’s and Not Kiev’s, they’ve been drawn up in the late 50’s but never ratified, which makes ambiguity the basis of these peace talks.
http://www.againstwar.eu/
It seems to have been organised by Poles, but don’t let this surprise you, our very own StWar coalition is a rather top down pressure group that does not like to be political, but they are….
Why so coy,STWC? the prospects of war in Europe are real and they also will mean war in America and Israel, because that is were these pressures for war deride from.
Europeans say no to war and I just hope that the rabid party politicians here will soon say so if they want our votes.
‘Fair Votes and NO to War in Europe’
Par for the course, 1:36 pm
Would these have been aerial photographs, from an aircraft, as opposed to Satellite imagery? The US may not be able to fly reconnaissance aircraft over Ukraine. Satellites images would be lower resolution.
Nevermind
I also say no to war with Russia – my view is that we need much tougher economic sanctions against those who have stolen from Russia – their clearly stolen assets should be seized and visas to visit their schoolkids and whores should be denied.
You might also wish to look what happened to Timoshenko and the fascists in the Ukrainian elections.
Ukraine’s borders were ratified by the 1991 referendum and by the Budapest Accord.
Resident Dissidentplease stop this “you may wish to look” nonsense; it’s so annoying and seems very patronising. Please just state what happened.
“Ukrainians seem to hold a rather over-optimistic view of “Western Democracy”. It’s presumably an over-reaction against their local propaganda.”
They do of course have view of Russian/Soviet imperialism that is all too based on practical experience – and to which we shall give rather more credence.
“RD might have a little interest at defending this warmongering plan by those who have form”
Come on don’t hold back – at least have the courage of your convictions rather than making underhand insinuations.
“Resident Dissidentplease stop this “you may wish to look” nonsense; it’s so annoying and seems very patronising. Please just state what happened.”
Alright – they got hammered and polled far worse than they did in previous elections – the fascists in % terms received a 5th of the voted achieved by Putin’s pet fascists in the LDP in Russia – but many here (do you wish me to name them?) still pay a lot more attention to the Ukrainian fascist than the Russian ones.
Nevermind, 1:52 pm; I agree that the Kiev government was largely constructed by the US (from Ukrainian parts), but many Ukrainians may well be supporting it anyway.
Resident Dissident’s suggestions of stronger sanctions (ie. one that might actually achieve something) against the oligarchs looks sensible – and not the suggestion of a fascist at all.