David Torrance quotes me as evidence – indeed the only evidence – of a “Great Divide” in the SNP between fundamentalists and gradualists. There certainly are differences, but they are just differences over tactics rather than goals.
I am quite open that I fear that the trivial diversion of extremely shallow extra powers for Holyrood will consume energies better spent on campaigning for independence. And it is certainly true that I believe that during this very right wing Tory Westminster government is the best time to hold another referendum, and that missing the chance could be a disaster.
But there are others just as committed to independence who are more tactically cautious. This is a debate about tactics in which people can quite legitimately hold different opinions. I bear no grudge towards the advocates of a cautious approach, and I have experienced not one iota of hostility from anyone in the SNP following my article which Torrance quotes.
The one point on which I do feel extremely strongly is that the decision on the party’s position on a second referendum must ultimately be taken democratically by the membership, not handed down by the leadership. As long as the way forward is democratically decided, there will be no “great divide” in the SNP, no matter how much the Britnats may yearn for it.
Jim Murphy is getting almost as much extended coverage on quitting in abject failure as leader, as he did when appointed as head of the Scottish accounting unit. For the uninitiated, a particular Blairite reduction in freedom was new legislation stipulating that you could only have a registered party name or “independent” on the ballot paper in elections. Before you could have any brief description you like, such as “fight the bypass” etc. But the Electoral Commission ruled that “Scottish Labour” could appear on ballot papers even though there is no such registered party. When challenged, the Electoral Commission invented the pathetic excuse that “Scottish Labour” was the name of an accounting unit within the Labour Party and – they made this next bit up on the spot – descriptions of accounting units within registered parties are allowed on the ballot. Somebody should set up a party with an accounting unit entitled “the Electoral Commission are Corrupt” and put that on the ballot.
Anyway Jim Murphy today “likened the atmosphere in the TV debates in Scotland to a “quasi-religious rock concert so whatever truth you told it did not really matter”.” This is a ridiculous lie. The TV debates audience in Scotland were dour and aggressively unionist, notably vocal in opposition to any second referendum. This is because the broadcasters selected the audience according to the results of the 2010 General Election, meaning only a quarter supported independence and they were massively pro-Labour. Murphy could not have had a more sympathetic audience. He failed in the debates because he was rubbish.
I am willing to lay a large sum of money that the TV companies never select an audience based on the 2015 General Election results.
“What chance is that? Your opportunity was in 2014. You’re not going to get another referendum during this government, the next one or the one after that.”
Sanity at last. Aside from the impossibility of a referendum in the next two or three parliaments, there’s simply no appetite for independence now that the Scotch nats are settling into the Westminster trough. Some would argue that there never was. Craig’s views are a bit too extreme for the SNP.
“Nor mine, I must admit. But that’s not the case with our Irish-American friend, I believe.”
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Well Habb it could be worse,he could’ve posted your ridiculous Stopfake link,but even he’s not that desperate.
I was just having a laugh at myself and my silly ego, Habbabkuk – thanks again, though!
I don’t know about you, but right now I need some bellowing, rollicking music from the diphtheriac Hells’ Kitchen of the 1920s! Here’s a factual account from William Carlos Williams. It’s the mix of highbrow and visceral that imbues it with power, and the thought of forcing an implement down a child’ throat. People forget what it was like for their grandmothers. Empty desks in primary school classrooms – a common experience. I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but by this time, the thread becomes what it is, and the fact that it appears to have survived a massive spambot attack is something worth celebrating with a little tale from the past.
http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/force.html
“Sanity at last. Aside from the impossibility of a referendum in the next two or three parliaments, there’s simply no appetite for independence”
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Oh I don’t know Paddy Powers the bookies may just disagree with you.
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/scottish-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=1914391
“English/Scots libel law badly needs reforming”
There is no such thing as Scots libel law.
Fred.
Libel, defamation. Same thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
Thanks for the correction, Fred.
Habba is very funny, it’s just not intentional. He’s similar to Ziva from the TV series called NCIS. She speaks almost perfect English but keeps fucking up the American proverbs and sayings because she is actually an Israeli. The odd “arse” in your posts doesn’t convince, habby. You’re good, but not THAT good. Shalom.
What I meant, I guess, was that in this specific regard the law is an ass equally in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Do not anyone ever say that Gallusway is left leaning,he leans to the left and crouches to the right,he is a self seeking abomination who lauded the Tories ffs in the run up to the election telling lie after lie,he is inmo 1 in a long line of working class lefties that grabbed the “kings shilling” and not ever were they going to let go.
Habb:
My reading and concentration skills seem to be functioning fairly well. The comments about your posts being long-winded was just another way of saying that they are boring, pretentious. You kind of remind me of the character David Brent from the TV show The Office.
Shit- hope I don’t get libelled from Ricky Gervais!!
Craig…….. I’m not bothered whether the membership or the leadership decide when to hold another referendum. There is only one thing that matters, and that is the timing is right. The leadership got us to where we are now. I’m putting my faith in that leadership to deliver.
Suhayl
“it appears to have survived a massive spambot attack”
Forgive me for being cynical but quite how “massive”?
Normally a dos attack is noticed by someone other than the alleged victim. I haven’t seen one commentator say they had any problems connecting at all. Not one. Which is odd don’t you think?
I can see there is political capital in it for Craig to be seen as under attack. And really this would be a little lie (big exageration?) for someone who uses the deportation of immigrants for political gain.
Hi Phil
Sorry to disappoint, but it took 4 goes to get here this am.
Similar yesterday, & Sunday.
Craig may only be a minor pain for the establishment, but pain he is.
what does Lutfurs position have to do with GG,is he in your opinion guilty by association?
I am not sure which is guilty by association with which. I’m not relying on the Telegraph (whose current assault on Blair cannot be faulted, even if it is for the wrong reasons), incidentally, but on wider reading, with particular reference to Private Eye, which has banged on about Tower Hamlets for years.
It surprises me that you are apparently a Galloway sympathiser. Maybe it’s his socialist credentials? On top of his MP’s salary, he pulled in in £1650 an hour (true, he doesn’t charge for travelling time) four times a month from Press TV, the same from Russia Today, and does regular TV programmes for al-Mayadeen in Beirut, whoever they are, at £6000 a pop. He lives in considerable style.
Or perhaps it’s his commitment to Scottish independence? I hope you don’t think he has any, although there are signs he may do a reverse ferret if it should start looking inevitable.
His effectiveness in Parliament, when he was there? You’ll have a job there. Those flights he doen’t declare time for put big gaps in his availability, and he is a poor attender.
I am hugely sympathetic to Scotland’s efforts to detach itself from the awful London government, believe me. I’ve spent half my life in Scotland, and have been a member of the SNP (would be again if I lived there now). But Galloway is a posturing, selfserving irrelevance and not one to be solicited in aid IMO, and there I stick.
I freely concede he is a highly entertaining performer, states, if he doesn’t exactly practise, some views with which I agree, and has an absolute gift for repartee.
I should have added, that I have absolutely no criticism whatever of his work on behalf of Gaza. On the contrary. But I still don;t like him… 🙂
Sockpuppet (posing as a Cliffordbarmitage)
“..but keeps fucking up the American proverbs and sayings because she is actually an Israeli.”
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Of course another explanation might be that I’m not an American?
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“You’re good..”
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Yes, I know.
“Ron Jeremy” (sounds like a Cuban rum, doesn’t it)
“Habb:
The comments about your posts being long-winded was just another way of saying that they are boring, pretentious.”
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Never mind, Ron. J
ust ignore me and focus on posting hard-hitting, relevant, interesting points of view and information and dialoging effectively with your peers in a mutually-enriching fashion.
You know it makes sense.
And now….run along!
Habb:
That’s some size of ego you have on display here, I’d keep that in check if I were you.
Defo
“Sorry to disappoint, but it took 4 goes to get here this am. Similar yesterday, & Sunday.”
Fair enough. I am corrected.
One commentator has now said they are repeatedly unable to access the site. Still odd that no one else mentioned it and, dare I say, you only mention it now.
Anyway, I accept your experience but even so that’s a really very rubbish dos attack. I would have thought GCHQ could do better. Don’t you?
Habbakuk
““Ron Jeremy” (sounds like a Cuban rum, doesn’t it)”
Ha! I suggest you google it.
I’m a fundamentalist. The Scottish Parliament is as far as I can see a bunch of lawyers bums on seats.
Nicola Sturgeon is just another politician.
Its time ordinary Scots people took matters into their own hands.
And just in case our M15 or ASIO masters are reading this I really do not care
I have weeks maybe a month or two to live.
WM is happy with the BBC and MSM to follow their line.
And happy enough with the Cybernat blogsters to talk in circles around each other. Its a good release valve for the ordinary folk.
And when NATO puts bases on its eastern frontiers and an emergency powers act is enacted – goodbye Scotland
DrewSword
My pleasure at your refreshing comment was shockingly tempered mid way. Best wishes to you mate. Go stand barefoot on the grass and tell your friends you love them.
“It surprises me that you are apparently a Galloway sympathiser. Maybe it’s his socialist credentials? On top of his MP’s salary, he pulled in in £1650 an hour (true, he doesn’t charge for travelling time) four times a month from Press TV, the same from Russia Today, and does regular TV programmes for al-Mayadeen in Beirut, whoever they are, at £6000 a pop. He lives in considerable style.
Or perhaps it’s his commitment to Scottish independence? I hope you don’t think he has any, although there are signs he may do a reverse ferret if it should start looking inevitable.
His effectiveness in Parliament, when he was there? You’ll have a job there. Those flights he doen’t declare time for put big gaps in his availability, and he is a poor attender.
I am hugely sympathetic to Scotland’s efforts to detach itself from the awful London government, believe me. I’ve spent half my life in Scotland, and have been a member of the SNP (would be again if I lived there now). But Galloway is a posturing, selfserving irrelevance and not one to be solicited in aid IMO, and there I stick.
I freely concede he is a highly entertaining performer, states, if he doesn’t exactly practise, some views with which I agree, and has an absolute gift for repartee.”
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Baal.
Re your above comment, I disagree with Galloways stance on Scottish independence,sure GG is no angel,but neither are the other Westminster MPs.
GG has said some silly things in the past,the most prominent of all his “indefatigability” comment to Saddam.
Recently I’ve read several of his books,and GG peppers his books constantly apologising for his foot in mouth comment,to Saddam,infact not long after meeting Saddam Tariq Aziz told GG that Saddam couldn’t stand him.
Craig once said on one of his streams that George Galloway was essentially a good guy,I couldn’t quite work out why Craig would say that,but in hindsight I now tend to agree with him.
Fundamentalist or gradualist?
The heart says fundamentalist, but the head says gradualist.
Had Scotland voted for independence in the referendum, then it was, is, as plain as a pikestaff, that the country and its people were hopelessly unprepared.
Its once great industries are little more than distant memories.
Anglified suburbia continues to march onward over Scotland’s precious farmland, a strategic resource more valuable to its future than even oil.
Its fisheries continue to be raped by the EU.
There is no navy, army,airforce or security service.
Such matters have never been addressed.
Why?
Because the game plan of the SNP is just to let ‘Europe’ handle everything…….just as England has done for the last three centuries.
Can’t Scots see the snags? Here are some that have been brushed under the carpet.
1)Absolutely no bargaining power on the subject of EU membership.
‘They’ dictate the terms and Scotland has to accept. Say goobye to Scotland’s fisheries and hello to the new NKVD and Cheka…..the Euro-gendarmerie, a name destined to send a chill down the spine of any future freedom-lovers and free-thinkers.
2) Just like Greece and S Ireland, the cash will come rolling in for all sorts of grandiose projects. The SNP, Sturgeon and Co will be eulogised as saviours of Scotland but, but, but……. then comes the bill…. as it has done for Greece and Eire….and the country will be sold out to foreign interests from under the Scots’ feet.( actually, that process has already happened)
3)The EU’s and NATO’s wars will be the Scots’ wars.
Is this a good thing for Scots? Don’t you think we have taken part in sufficient wars already? Now, if modern war led to great profits and prosperity then I could see the point, but ask yourself, how profitable to the average Scot have been the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
Far from being profitable, all I can see are debts going through the roof, and Scots killed or maimed. On top of that, we would be swept, are being swept, along in this dangerous posturing against the Russian Federation.Why would any thinking Scot wish to take up arms against Russia when the history of the two countries is one of military co-operation and mutually beneficial development of Russia’s prodigious resources?
What’s changed?
The Prussians saved the English necks at Waterloo. A century later they were they became the ‘ beastly Huns.’
The USSR, or Russia for short, were our glorious, brave allies in the very questionable war against Germany. Now we are to believe, some seventy years on, that they have become demonic, hunnish gangsters. Whoever forms public opinion, these days, doesn’t half change their mind with the greatest of ease about such matters. One decade, comradeship and fraternity, the next, hatred, excommunication, villification and the advocacy of mass murder.
The trouble with the present- day generation of Scots is that they have an absurd, misplaced faith in democracy.
All you have to do is vote for it, and you’ll get it……..they fondly imagine.
Trident is a good example. Even if all Scotland’s paltry 5 miillion people vote for its expulsion, but the English( and the Yankee Doodle Dandies )want it to stay………then there isn’t a damned thing the Scots can do about it. The Germans have name for this phenomenon. It is ‘Realpolitik.’
99% of Scots need a crash course in the subject…..and the current SNP wouldn’t be a good place to start.
Another is the unhealthy obsession with welfare and social policy….The thinking seems to be that everybody is born a cripple, unable to learn to read and educate themselves. Everybody, from cradle to grave is going to be educated( indoctrinated?) and medicated( drugged?) for ‘free’….while the country and its resources get stolen, and its citizenry become economic slaves to foreigners…..healthy, well-educated slaves….. but slaves nonetheless.
Without a vibrant, profitable, home -based industry to pay for such services, this is a utopian, infantile pipe-dream that will end in tears and misery……and that applies to England as well. We see it already in foodbanks and patients dying of dehydration.( Water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Nurse, pass us ower yon gless o floo’rs. Thanks nurse, ye’r a fookin’ hero)
Gosh, that’s some vision. What a nation of old jessies….destined for extinction. Old jessies don’t just die . They fade away, unhonoured and unsung.
“Nemo me impune lacessit” was the proud motto of an independent Scotland…..”No-one assails me with impunity”.
Now, thanks to Scots embracing the ways of the great satan, English rejects,deadbeats,and third- rate jessies, sent to the only place that will have them, Scotland……….. assail,subvert and anglify Auld Scotia unthinkingly, or with utter contempt(I’m not sure which)……while the best of Scotland leaves for London or New York, to be sucked in and spat out by the heartless, soulless, globalist cosmopolitan treadmill.
“Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society”…… Socrates…….and the Scots are TOO TOLERANT, and dumbed-down, to survive.
The fault , dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, or the English, but in ourselves, for having trusted the lying, fork-tongued sods, whose wish all along was the conquest of Scotland and its extinction from history. The so-called ‘Union’ was but a ploy…..a means to an end….the end of Scotland and all things Scottish.