This is essentially a free speech forum. I enjoy much of the banter which goes on between commenters, particularly the dedicated band of people who post on a daily basis. There is an important distinction between my writing, and the comments section. The proportion of readers who leave comments is well under 1%. I cannot know what percentage of the readers read comments, but I suspect it is not terribly high.
In social media I find establishment hacks – particularly journalists and Labour Party functionaries – dismiss my thoughts by referring to the comments section. “Craig Murray – have you seen the tinfoil hats comments on his blog!” being a genuine and very typical example. Well, if people wish to damn me by association with the views of other people, that is sadly an example of the low intellectual standards of the British nomenklatura of our time. The only views on here which are mine are those which I write.
I cherish the diversity of the comment threads and am fond of our little community, most of whom I have never met. I do not value people by the standard of how close their views are to my own. I am sometimes saddened by the personal animosities which arise between people.
We state some rules from time to time. This is the current set, which I just made up:
No racism. Any comment which is racist will simple be deleted immediately. The biggest problem we face is anti-Jewish comment, which I will not tolerate. We are not in the business of stigmatising anti-Zionism as anti-Jewish, but there are quite frequently distinctly anti-Jewish comments. I deleted one just an hour ago.
Similarly, no holocaust denial. I do not believe it should be illegal (I am against thought crime) but I do not wish to have it on my blog as those associated with it often have very unpleasant sympathies. That is not to say the subject of the holocaust can never be mentioned – it will never be possible to ascertain the precise number who were killed, and it is important we remember not only the Jews but the Poles, gypsies, gays, freemasons and numerous others who suffered. But the basic facts are not in doubt. It is surprising how often people attempt to insinuate holocaust denial.
Sockpuppetry. It is in practice impossible to outlaw sockpuppetry without a formal registration system, which I do not want. But the adoption of multiple identities within the same thread is not to be allowed, nor the creation of identities of which the purpose is to ridicule, attack or insult another contributor.
Fair Play. Play the ball, not the man. Address arguments, not people. Do not impugn the motives of others, including me. No taunting.
Relevance
Attempts to keep people on topic are hopeless, but do try.
9/11
We don’t discuss 9/11. There are plenty of places on the web where you can do that. It tends to take over threads.
Contribute
Contributions which are primarily just a link to somewhere else will be deleted. You can post links, but give us the benefit of your thoughts upon them.
No explanation.
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Moderators
We have, and have had, excellent moderators over many years. But almost all have found it not only time consuming but also surprisingly emotionally draining. If you are interested in volunteering and are willing for me to know both your real and online identity, please get in tough using the contact button.
“The more cunning and savvy Jew-haters have seen which way the wind’s blowing on here and have beaten a hasty retreat, leaving poor, dumb Macky behind to take the flak on their behalf. And the funniest thing is that he doesn’t even realise he’s the appointed fall guy!”
This kind of flame-baiting is what is ruining this blog and is what Craig is keen on cutting out.
“And BTW Macky, the rason why Craig refers to his time in Poland in context of his contempt for holocaust denial, is probably because Poland is where the holocaust mostly happened, where the biggest numbers of eye-witnesses and physical evidence can be found. There’s also the evidence of what can’t be found, ie the several million Polish Jews whose disappearance takes a lot of explaining if the holocaust didn’t happen.”
Well said. That in itself is sufficient enough justification as far as I’m concerned.
Daniel
Well, it’s true isn’t it? Macky is just about the only one still arguing the toss with and about Craig. But he is by no means the the only Jew-hater on here: the conclusion must be, therefore, that the others have beaten a strategic retreat.
But don’t fret, the others will be back sooner rather than later. You’ll see.
@Daniel, sorry but you seem to be consistently inconsistent on this thread;
You can’t see the contradiction in a Blog owner declaring his Blog a “free speech forum” and in the same breath also listing various povs that will not be allowed !
Moreover together with the Habby Troll, you are missing the point about placing the Holocaust beyond discussion, which means placing it above all other genocides, because this is exactly what Zionists & apologists for Israeli crimes also do, as it plays into their “ Israeli Exceptionalism” narrative (look it up), which they used to justify their slow genocide of the Palestinians.
If you ever find yourself in agreement with the Habby Clown, then you should know something is wrong !
And as I stated to Pete, I don’t need any education about Poland in the context of the Holocaust, and I resent the shameful cheap shot of using it to insinuate that I’m a Holocaust Denier; what is the use of wnatever Craig may have learnt in Poland if he is not prepared to use it intellectually ?
Hasbara trolls are taught to throw phrases like ‘Jew hater’ and ‘holocaust denier’ into their mix. When confronted by Jewish writers or activists such as Gilad Atzmon or Normal Finkelstein for instance, they are flummoxed. Then you hear the phrase ‘self hating Jew’.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_(Israel) (Hasbara)
http://www.theisraelproject.org/what-is-tip/ (The Israel Project)
http://www.camera.org/ (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)
and there are other similar set ups.
Macky,
It’s Craig’s prerogative to decide the extent of the parameters he sets. Within the said parameters, freedom of expression is unlimited. As to the question of whether it’s right or wrong that the Holocaust be discussed more widely is a separate issue. The pertinent point in terms of this blog, is that it’s against the rules. You are free to discuss it elsewhere if you want to. That’s your decision. I personally, am happy that it’s not discussed here.
“But he is by no means the the only Jew-hater on here….”
I’ve seen no evidence that Macky is a Jew-hater.
On the subject of anti-Semitism, since today is the bi-centenary of the Battle of Waterloo there is an interesting article in the Jewish Chronicle relating how Wellington was a steadfast opponent of equal rights for both Jews and Catholics, despite having large numbers of soldiers from both religions who won the battle that made his name.
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/137984/revealed-why-wellington-was-no-friend-jews
Even though if his commitment may well have been born out of political pragmatism, the fact that the very first Zionist was actually a Corsican atheist whom we otherwise know as Napoleon Bonaparte is also a good illustration of how many Zionists are not actually Jewish.
Daniel;“Within the said parameters, freedom of expression is unlimited”
The setting of parameters, which nobody is denying is Craig’s right, by self-definition means that there is a limit on Free Speech on this Blog; It is misleading to state that this is a “free speech forum”.
Daniel;“I personally, am happy that it’s not discussed here”
Care to explain why ?
Becky, I’d like to take it further by positing that the majority of the worlds Zionists are not Jewish. But that’s not to say that the problems associated with “Jewish-ness”, understood as a political category, should be somehow swept under the carpet.
Macky,
I just don’t think Holocaust revisionism is an intellectually credible and worthwhile pursuit. If it’s the numbers people are bothered about – whether it’s 4 million, 5 million or 6 million – is moot in terms of the overriding attempts by revisionists to discredit it altogether. As I have said previously, in all my 52 years I have not come across a single revisionist who is not in reality a Holocaust denying fascist.
In terms of your first point, I get the argument that it could have been construed as misleading prior to the introduction of the rules, but that’s as far as that goes.
Just for the sake of clarity and understanding;
Can anyone define “fascist”?
“On the subject of anti-Semitism, since today is the bi-centenary of the Battle of Waterloo there is an interesting article in the Jewish Chronicle relating how Wellington was a steadfast opponent of equal rights for both Jews and Catholics,”
The article says that he supported Catholic Emancipation but resisted Jewish efforts to achieve something similar.
Funnily enough today, Jews are much more full members of the British political family than Catholics.
And I’m talking about English Catholics here. You know, Duke Of Norfolk. Norman Conquests etc. Catholics have less rights in this respect than muslims, Jews, jehovahs witnesses, wicca, and indeed any old invent your own religionist who happens to visit from abroad.
Funny old world, eh.
” despite having large numbers of soldiers from both religions who won the battle that made his name.”
The article doesn’t say he had large numbers of Jews fighting under him. The number 15 is mentioned.
“Even though if his commitment may well have been born out of political pragmatism, the fact that the very first Zionist was actually a Corsican atheist whom we otherwise know as Napoleon Bonaparte is also a good illustration of how many Zionists are not actually Jewish.”
Napoleon in terms of geopolitical strategy is very much a similar actor to Hitler. They’re trying to achieve the same thing, the conquest of Russia. They’re often compared in mainstream scholarship.
And we’re at it again today, trying to conquer Russia.
We know it’s a Zionist project today. We know from Becky that it was a Zionist project for Napoleon.
How come Hitler was following a similar project. I mean, obviously he’s not a Zionist.
“Can anyone define “fascist”?”
If you’re looking at mainstream academic scholarship, then the answer is that there has been no definition as such.
They see very different variants of fascism when they compare Germany, Spain, Italy, south America, Greece, Portugal and so on.
They were turding around of course, trying to cover naked greed in fine philosophical prose.
It was simply wealth and violence in alliance against the populace during times of very depressed economic conditions.
That’s the common factor.
Protecting the wealth when times are bad.
“Just for the sake of clarity and understanding;
Can anyone define “fascist”?”
I take back the word “fascist”.
@Daniel, Although you obviously don’t mean to, but you are in effect agreeing & siding with Zionist supremacism, in that Jews are so uniquely special, that they have to be treated different to everybody else, which includes agreeing that that even their suffering has to be treated differently, and it is this mixture of exceptionalism & Western guilt trip that they use in order for Israel being allowed to get away with conduct & crimes that no country can. So not quite a worthless pursuit, for them !
Also on the moot point, I believe there is a cultural legacy obligation for the historical record to be as accurate as possible, and so to outlaw research & enquiries into the Holocaust is both morally & intellectually wrong; the truth doesn’t need to be defended from itself !
“How come Hitler was following a similar project. I mean, obviously he’s not a Zionist.”
Zionism and antisemitism are two sides of the same coin, although the Zionist political movement that emerged in the late 19th century didn’t start out that way. It actually started out as a RESPONSE to antisemitism, particularly in Eastern Europe.
Capitalist development undermined the traditional commercial roles that many Jews had played in the old feudal economy. The succession of periodic economic slumps that happened resulted in Jews being scapegoated.
But instead of Zionists challenging head on the antisemitism that arose out of the crisis, they exploited the situation politically for their own ends. The only way for Jews to escape antisemitism, it was decided, was to set up an exclusively Jewish state.
At the time of the Dreyfus Affair, in which a Jewish army officer was falsely accused of espionage, Herzl–who is generally regarded as the father of Zionism–wrote in his diaries:
“I achieved a freer attitude toward antisemitism, which I now began to understand historically and to pardon. Above all, I recognized the emptiness and futility of trying to ‘combat’ antisemitism.”
Nathan Weinstock in his book Zionism: False Messiah quoting thee Russian Zionist Leo Pinsker similarly argued that “Judeo-phobia is a psychic aberration” that is “hereditary” and “incurable.”
Herzl himself in 1896 in his pamphlet The State of the Jews called for a Jewish state to be set up in an undeveloped country outside Europe and explicitly insisted that this could only be carried out only with the backing of one of the major imperialist powers, who were at that time carving up the world between them.
Once such support had been won, the Zionist movement would conduct itself like other colonizing ventures. Various sites for the new state were considered, including Argentina and Madagascar, but the influence of religious Jews led the Zionists to decide on Palestine, the Biblical “promised land.”
The legacy of Zionism, in which the Zionist appropriation of Palestine land as the rampart of a system of colonial domination worldwide, continues to this day in the form of the expansionist quest for Eretz Yisrael (Greater Israel).
Can Anyone Define Fascist…
It’s made up Word… By the elite
and now our Gov is supporting them in Ukraine…. For Clarity, it’s called EVIL
Macky,
I don’t think there is any causal relationship between Craig’s decision not to permit Holocaust revisionism on his blog and the notion of Zionist supremacism and exceptionalism. Holocaust revisionism and even outright denialism is not illegal in this country it’s simply the case that it’s not allowed on this blog.
As it goes, I’m opposed to other European countries who criminalize Holocaust denialism. I’m not arguing in favour of the Nazi Holocaust being treated differently, I’m merely respecting Craig’s decision not to allow any discussion of Holocaust revisionism on his blog.
“Can Anyone Define Fascist…”
May I recommend Google?
Truth Hurts
Stick aroon..and thanks for responding
Evil applied – with the Help of politicians Made up words
Remember them sitting in deck chairs..last summer..watching Gaza being Bombed…Children being Murdered
And From a Horse Mouth…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW3a1bw5XlE
Indeed Brian. These people are evil personified.
@Daniel, if Craig had stated that he bans Holocaust debate on the same grounds as banning 911 debate, ie that it tends to take over & dominate all threads, then that would have been understandable, but to state as he did that he bans it because of “intellectual contempt”, this is where I think we must disagree, as I do think that send out all the wrong signals on so many levels, not least that it aids the Zionist’s case for special supremacism treatment, which they always use to try to excuse Israel of her many crimes, plus it is precisely this sort of double-standards special treatment that actually feeds anti-Semitism in the first place.
Here is Gilad Atzmon on JVP and their Herem for Alison Weir of If Americans Knew.
Jewish Voice for Peace, Alison Weir And the Hatred of the White
By Gilad Atzmon
June 18, 2015 ICH
A month ago, Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) issued a call for a Herem (excommunication, Hebrew) against the remarkable activist and writer Alison Weir. The call was distributed internally amongst JVP’s chapter leaders and was leaked to me by a few JVP dissenters. The publication of the call led to a massive surge of resentment towards JVP within the dissident movement. JVP was compelled to explain their move.
The call for Herem is deeply rooted in Jewish culture. Throughout their history, Jews have called for the expulsion of some of their most articulate and sophisticated minds. Spinoza, and Uriel Da Costa are famous examples. Christ, another dissent voice, found himself nailed to the cross for advising his people to love their neighbours. Though Rabbinical Jews rarely call for a herem, contemporary so-called ‘liberal’ Jews are obsessed with that ugly, primitive medieval ritual. Since I immersed myself in solidarity matters two decades ago, I have been witness to the relentless chasing, harassing and slandering of every Jew who crossed the 100 IQ barrier. First it was Israel Shamir, then Paul Eisen, and then Norman Finkelstein who dared speak the truth about the Jewish Left and BDS operating as a secret society (cult). Consistent with their Jewish heritage, ‘progressive’ Jews like to employ a ‘Sabbos Goy’, a gentile who is willing to surrender to their whims. The liberal Jews at JVP have used Ali Abunimah as their favourite ‘partner’. He has apparently been happy to provide his Palestinian voice to issue the Palestinian stamp. Although rabbinical Jews employ the Herem solely against Jews, liberal Jews, fuelled by peculiar sense of righteousness, extended the Herem to include some ‘Goyim’. For years they have attempted to excommunicate me (an ex-Jew). They chased Free Gaza Founder Greta Berlin. Currently their target is Alison Weir and, in a surprising move, the American people whom JVP has outrageously dubbed a racist collective.
/..
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42179.htm
@Daniel, if Craig had stated that he bans Holocaust debate on the same grounds as banning 911 debate, ie that it tends to take over & dominate all threads, then that would have been understandable, but to state as he did that he bans it because of “intellectual contempt”, this is where I think we must disagree, as I do think that send out all the wrong signals on so many levels, not least that it aids the Zionist’s case for special supremacism treatment, which they always use to try to excuse Israel of her many crimes, plus it is precisely this sort of double-standards special treatment that actually feeds anti-Semitism in the first place.
Macky,
I don’t recognize your characterization of the issues at all. The biggest single factor that drives antisemitism is neoZionism in my view.
Mary, I don’t agree with everything Atzmon says, but I do think he offers some invaluable ‘insider’ insights into the Jewish supremicist collective mindset as evidenced by both the Jewish left and rights’ treatment meted out to people like Alison Weir. Alison seems like a good person to me.
@Daniel, no problem, as I don’t understand your inability to relate to the points I raised; guess we will have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
The comments are one of the reasons I rarely visit this blog these days
& when I do I never venture into the comments section.
I don’t know if it still happens but there was always 3 or 4 people
that ‘took over’ and invariably madness ensued…
FOR THE ATTENTION OF THE MODERATORS
Arguments about this blog’s moderation are swamping out other conversation at Squonk’s blog squonk.tk; I request a degree of “moderation amnesty” be applied on this thread so that complaints and discussion can continue here rather than there.
———-
[ Mod: Clark – we can un-suspend posting for those currently in the pre-approval list, if they agree to put comments in here rather than swamping whatever the latest thread happens to be. However – if they abuse it, they will lose it again. ]