Nobody has more contempt than me for the House of Lords or for cronies of Tony Blair. But I shall not join in the pillorying of John Sewel over his private life. If he wants to take cocaine and spend time with prostitutes that is entirely his own business. Britain’s periodic outcries over private morality are contemptible. There is no legitimate reason why the activities of consenting adults in their own homes should be of concern to the rest of us. Not the least unpleasant aspect is that those journalists and politicians who whip up such witch hunts are for the most part hiding secrets about themselves. That in 2015 we still have not come to terms with the most ordinary sexual desire or formulated a more rational policy response to use of narcotics, is unfortunate.
I expect if I dug around I could find a lot of things to dislike Sewel for, in terms of the policies he has supported. But to attack political opponents over their private lives – assuming the necessary factors of adults and consent – is low.
Jay, 6:48 pm; it isn’t the substances that people like or become addicted to; it’s the effects of those substances upon the nervous system. So for instance the painkiller diamorphine, known as heroin when ingested illegally, is used because it binds to the same receptors in the nervous system as certain endorphins, our bodies’ natural painkillers.
Consequently it is just as possible to become addicted to a behaviour as to a “drug”. people can become “addicted” to self-flagellation or exercising beyond the “pain barrier”.
Personally I think society would be better off without television; it creates unreasonable expectations, normalises extreme and frequent violence and tells all sorts of lies – but I wouldn’t seek to enforce my preference upon others.
Perhaps I should call Lord Sewel for suggestions on how I could pass the time.
In a cheap hotel, a better course might be to ask the night porter. A small incentive being proffered. Do not ask me how I know this.
Ba’al, in eastern Europe in the old days, whenever you were in a hotel and ordered a bottle of champagne on room service (dirt cheap if you had hard currency) a prostitute would automatically accompany it.
“I expect if I dug around I could find a lot of things to dislike Sewel for, in terms of the policies he has supported.”
Well it turns out this chap Sewel gave his name to the act that ensures Westminster cannot legislate on devolved matters without the approval of the Scotch Parliament – the Sewel Convention.
So not all bad then.
The real hypocrisy is the exploitation of the women by the media in order to secure a lurid headline. What people do in their private sex lives should remain private providing it’s between consenting adults and no one is harmed. I doubt whether Sewel consented to the filming of these sessions or to their public release, which clearly harmed him. This was entrapment, no more, no less. How many of us could bear the close scrutiny of our private lives that Sewel has and still be judgemental and puritanical? Those that do should be pitied and comforted on experiencing such boring existences.
Ba’al, in eastern Europe in the old days, whenever you were in a hotel and ordered a bottle of champagne on room service (dirt cheap if you had hard currency) a prostitute would automatically accompany it.
Those were the days, the mike in the light fitting notwithstanding. And given that much choice I’d rather be exposing my bits on RIA Novosti than the Sun on Sunday…some self respect might yet be possible.
Craig – “If people choose to earn their money by helping someone orgasm, rather than by delivering their mail or cooking their pizza, precisely why is that wrong?”.
Young women “choose” to earn their money that way do way?
I guess if they’ve genuinely got loads of other choices… there’s no economic compulsion… and they’re genuinely “choosing” to do with 60+ old men they wouldn’t touch with a barge-pole in other circumstances rather than do a different job. They’re not drug addicted and needing the money for that. They’re not mentally ill. And they’re coming to it as an adult… its not a continuation of being led into it as a child. And they don’t suffer physically or mentally from the “job”. They don’t feel dirty and are perfectly happy with what they’re doing. And so are all the “clients”. And they remarkably don’t acquire or pass on any STDs.
Then – I guess you have a possible case. Ain’t real world though is it?
Je
You evidently find some strange comfort in deluding yourself that nobody takes up prostitution as a matter of choice. It is certainly true very few young women would want to have sex with Sewel except for money. But there are quite a lot of women who will do so for money, and in most cases it has nothing at all to do with compulsion or abuse in childhood.
Prostitution has always not just existed, but flourished. It always will. Je’s puritanical and idealised objections are irrelevant.
I’d like to see some stats on either side of that dispute, Craig, Je et al. While there are certainly some prostitutes who enjoy their work, I’d think they’re more or less free to set their own terms and conditions. I can’t imagine having to fill a quota for a pimp in exchange for accommodation and protection, or servicing random kerb-crawlers in Leith, would be entirely voluntary.
I haven’t said they enjoy their work. It’s work. Statistics are very hard indeed to come by and those that exist are extremely misleading. The large majority of prostitutes picked up by the authorities are brought in on immigration grounds. They know very well that the most advantageous line for them to take is immediately to claim to be victims of trafficking.
Craig – Muder has always not just existed, but flourished. It probably always will. That’s an excusal, not an argument.
And labelling me “puritanical” and “idealised” is throwing labels at me – that’s not an argument either. My concerns are very practical – like public health, and the health of those involved, and their partners. You keep ignoring that one.
Some do it as you say for money, not beatings by pimps or anything. Economic pressure. Not much of a society where people are pushed into that to pay their bills is it? I might as well ask the your daughter/sister question? Would that be okay?
Je
Some people, male and female, do it by choice. Being “pushed into” working forty hours a week in a hot restaurant kitchen on the minimum wage is just as unpleasant and less financially rewarding. As I said earlier, what is the moral difference between cooking someone a pizza and giving them an orgasm? It is a serious question.
The risks of STD’s are exactly the same as in unpaid sexual promiscuity. There are unpaid individuals who have more promiscuous sex than some prostitutes. As for your question as to whether I would approve of a family member doing sex work, you are inviting me to socially stigmatise prostitutes, which I decline to do.
I liked the ‘Horlicks and Strictly’ bit in the context of the topic. 🙂 Think about it. I was thinking phonetically on the first and then of Gideon’s friend on the second.
The large majority of prostitutes picked up by the authorities are brought in on immigration grounds.
I’m not sure that has anything to do with it. Given that a large number of our immigrants have been sent on their way by organised criminals in their own countries, I’m not even sure they’re getting better-paid work: see the scams inflicted on Baltic agricultural workers – and they’re often legal immigrants. I don’t have a moral dog in this fight, btw, but it would be interesting to justify the competing claims. Prostitution is notoriously risky, both as regards violence and disease. It benefits the pimp as much or more than the pro. Pimping is a criminal offence, and the pimp is likely to have other criminal interests. Is an occupation which embeds the worker in criminal activity justifiable as work?
I take it you are for decriminalisation of the UK-wide currently-illegal activities, which include soliciting sex in a public place, running a collective or brothel, and pimping. This might be a good idea, given regulation. Why? Because prostitution is basically a shit ‘job’. socially stigmatised and dangerous; it might then approach a little more closely your conception of it.
Funny how this video has come out and Cameron and co are quick to condemn Mr Sewer yet we all know that parliament is awash with child rapists who are defended to the hilt by the establishment. Was this bloke’s crime that he was having sex with adults in Dolphin Square?
Prostitution is a difficult one, because from my own limited experience (as a customer, I may add) the majority of girls do it willingly, even if you can argue that they only turn to prostitution because of dire economic circumstances (those that do it to fund a drug addiction are a different matter, in my opinion).
Harking back once again to older times, when you used to go through one of those Soho street doors marked ‘Young French Model’, chances are you’d find a granny running the joint, and not some knuckle-dragging cliche pimp. Even Raymond’s Review Bar was very innocent in this respect. Westminster City Council gave a nod and a wink to prostitution yet it was still tightly controlled. I’ve no idea what it’s like now.
On the flip side of this, there are many girls who are forced into prostitution, and this, to my mind, is what blurs the arguement.
Also it should be remembered that male prostitution is also quite prevelent.
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/159/8/778.full
In this study, the authors estimated overall and cause-specific mortality among prostitute women. They recorded information on prostitute women identified by police and health department surveillance in Colorado Springs, Colorado, from 1967 to 1999. The authors assessed cause-specific mortality in this open cohort of 1,969 women using the Social Security Death Index and the National Death Index, augmented by individual investigations. They identified 117 definite or probable deaths and had sufficient information on 100 to calculate a crude mortality rate (CMR) of 391 per 100,000 (95% confidence interval (CI): 314, 471). In comparison with the general population, the standardized mortality ratio (SMR), adjusted for age and race, was 1.9 (95% CI: 1.5, 2.3). For the period of presumed active prostitution only, the CMR was 459 per 100,000 (95% CI: 246, 695) and the SMR was 5.9 (95% CI: 3.2, 9.0). Violence and drug use were the predominant causes of death, both during periods of prostitution and during the whole observation period. The CMR for death by homicide among active prostitutes was 229 per 100,000 (95% CI: 79, 378), and the SMR was 17.7 (95% CI: 6.2, 29.3). Deaths from acquired immunodeficiency syndrome occurred exclusively among prostitutes who admitted to injecting drug use or were inferred to have a history of it.
Well I benefit for not drinking as I am sure many others would.
Craig
I’m not in favour of anyone being pushed into any job. People should have the choice of a job they want to do. Or an idle life if they can’t work or want one. You’re asking about “the moral difference” – if I answered that you’d then accuse me of “moralising”. I’m not moralising.
All forms of promiscuity are unhealthy and likely to lead to STDs… that’s not an argument in favour of one form of it is it? That there are other forms of promiscuity that lead to STDs as well – so its okay then – the health of those involved don’t matter then. We can ignore that aspect because other people also suffer.
I wasn’t inviting you to socially stigmatise prostitutes. I was inviting you to give them your approval and say yes you’d be okay with your daughter doing it – if you’re going to be consistent with everything else you’re saying. Or alternatively realise that you don’t really think prostitution is as okay as you’re claiming. I doubt many prostitutes would want their daughter doing it.
On the previous thread when I linked to the Sky news version of the story, I said that the Torygraph had also carried it ‘graphically’. I also said that Sewel had sounded contemptuous of the girls.
Now the Torygraph have employed Pollard to write this censorious piece. Pollard occupies the lofty perch of the editor’s chair at the JC.
Lord Sewel: the cocaine-snorting, prostitute-using peer doesn’t deserve our sympathy
Lord Sewel sets the standards for other peers – he was right to resign and deserves to face a police inquiry
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11764002/Lord-Sewel-the-cocaine-snorting-prostitute-using-peer-doesnt-deserve-our-sympathy.html
Lord Sewel sets the standards for other peers – he was right to resign and deserves to face a police inquiry
He was bloody careless to get caught, and there are more egregious criminals than Sewel in the Lords. This has all the hallmarks of a Tory distraction. From what?
Summerhead. Has Cameron said anything about this? I thought that he had already left for Indonesia and Malaysia on his terrrrr mission. Do those governments have any choice in admitting him to their countries?
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-puts-isil-threat-on-agenda-for-talks-in-south-east-asia
I’m not moralizing here, I just think it’s weird that anybody would want to pay to have sex with anyone.
Je
I fear that your condemnation of all promiscuity marks you down as a religious bigot.
Addiction implies many correlaries needing some reflection. You ca. Be addicted to chocolate cake without the indicated th negatives. Try again.
Craig – Wrong. I’m completely non-religious.
Promiscuity is a public health issue – its not a good choice. People get HIV, or something – they made a bad choice. Often people already caught something or they got damaged emotionally – and then they decide to lead that lifestyle cause they don’t care any more.
You think that perspective makes me a bigot. When you resort to abusive labels and the they-must-be-in-that-box line its a sign to yourself that you’ve lost the argument.
I have always regarded sex as a joyous thing. Not having sex from fear of STDs is like not breathing from fear of airborne viruses. And I would add that I have never caught anything. Your hostility to sexuality, if not motivated by religion, appears to spring from an obsession with cleanliness. Every single human activity including breathing and eating carries a risk of disease. It does not lead us to seal ourselves in hermetic bubbles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Sewel,_Baron_Sewel&action=history
There have been over 70 edits on his Wiki page today.
Philip Cross is one of the editors involved. Didn’t he play about with the entry for Craig?
I was once fascinated to look at the history of my Wiki page. People I have never met with having such animus against me, really not a nice feeling. Haven’t looked for quite a few years.
Craig. Now I’m an obsessive. Someone who disagrees with you has to have a label right?
I’m not talking about not having any sex – I’m talking about not being promiscuous. Risk reward ratio. STD’s exist. People want to look after their health – no-one else is going to. That person you meet for a promiscuous encounter isn’t going have your health on their mind. That’s being sensible, not obsessive.
I’ve no idea what you sexual history is and I’m not interested – but its very hard to know you’ve never caught anything. Symptomless HPV for example – which can lead to cervical cancer in women – is extremely prevelant. Anyone who’s led a promiscuous lifestyle is likely to have exposed themselves.
We’re not living in fluffy bunny world. It would be great if STDs didn’t exist. But they do. There it is. Call it bigotted, obsessive, whatever. I know its unwelcome information – but its the truth.