If somebody wishes to be a ghazi, I should much prefer them to do it in Tikrit rather than in Peterborough or Penicuik. To that extent I agree with Bob Quick. The periodic media scares about Sunni families going to Syria to “join ISIS” are very peculiar. We appear, with no public debate, to have adopted a de facto system of exit visas. Ronald Reagan famously said to Mikhail Gorbachev that we never had to lock our people in. It seems that now in the UK we do.
We have companies that recruit and control active armies of mercenaries, which are responsible for thousands of deaths overseas. I detest the violence of “ISIS” but it is not morally different from Executive Outcomes machine gunning villages from helicopters in Angola or from Aegis killing random vehicle occupants in Iraq who happened to be near their convoys. Yet Tony Buckingham and Tim Spicer became extremely rich after founding their careers on the latter killings, and now are respected figures in the London establishment. Apparently killing for money is good; only killing for religion is bad.
Nor is there any official objection to the young Britons who go to Israel to fight with the IDF, and were involved in the war crimes that last year killed hundreds upon hundreds of little Palestinian children.
Terrorism is appalling. The desire by some of the inhabitants of the Middle East to establish a Caliphate run on what they interpret as theological lines is a legitimate desire, if that is the kind of society people want. We devastated Iraq: we bombed Iraq into a failed state. We we were part of the nexus of interests that conspired to arm and facilitate armed insurrection in Syria. In the Blairite creed, we apparently believed that unleashing death, devastation and destruction of physical infrastructure and social institutions, would result in an embrace of democracy and western values by the people.
You would have to be mad to believe that, but it appears to remain the guiding principle of western foreign policy.
Even the remotest claim to wisdom would lead to the embrace of two principles. The first is that we cannot dictate how societies very different to our own ought to organise themselves. We can try to encourage a dialogue leading to respect of universal human rights, and hope for gradual improvement in that direction. But the second lesson is stop bombing. It is plainly counter-productive.
Today the BBC is wall to wall 7/7 commemoration. The coverage keeps focusing on military uniforms, even though the military were in no capacity whatsoever involved in 7/7. It is inappropriate militarism, just as we saw with the return of the bodies of the Tunisian victims.
There is an elephant in the room. Nobody is mentioning the starkly obvious truth. If we had not invaded Iraq, 7/7 would never have happened. Let me say it again, because it is not sayable within the corporate media and establishment consensus. If we had not invaded Iraq, 7/7 would never have happened.
Our response to “Isis” illustrates that we have become no more sophisticated than the Victorian portrayal of the “Mad Mahdi”. The difference is that, due to globalisation, we cannot just pound foreign lands into submission without provoking the blowback of terrorism elsewhere. I detest terrorism and do not believe random killing of civilians can ever be justified. But it is not an inexplicable manifestation of evil. We are causing it.
It is a fact that ISIS was never implicated in any terrorist activity in the UK before we started bombing ISIS in Iraq. We created the appalling mess in Iraq and Syria. By bombing we continually make it worse. It will take some time for the Middle East to recover from the profound effects of the Western wars against Muslim countries at the beginning of the 21st Century. Our response to the provocation of Bin Laden has been so stupid as to attain most of his goals for him. We have of course also attained most of the goals of the armaments and security state industries, which have sucked wealth from the rest of us. A spiral of despair for us has made billions for them. When a policy is as obviously counter-productive as our continual Middle Eastern wars, then ask cui bono?
I am not claiming that if we stop bombing then terrorism will stop instantly. There will be a lag effect. And in even the most benign scenario, Iraq and Syria will take decades to normalise. That is our fault, but we can best now help by staying well away.
Lysias, we seemed to be at cross purposes regarding terminology.
Also, the Liberty with its highly conspicuous array of antennas had a profile like no other ship in the world (except for its sister spy ships). Any mariner would have known it was like no known Egyptian ship (which the Israelis said they had mistaken it for).
Mahdi and Mad Mullah (he was post-WWI)
There aren’t any failed states because of US stupidity or unexpected consequences. The US is doing deliberately in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Somalia and Ethiopia and the zionists are doing in Palestine, what the Germans did in places like Poland, Jugoslavia, Ukraine and Belarus, for the same purpose, with the same results.
Lysias, have you read the actual transcripts?
I am not allowed to discuss classified materials to which I have had access.
Lysias @ 7.53,
I’m afraid the survivors testimonies can tell us nothing about the motivations of the attackers. Unless, of course, you believe that the survivors are somehow possessed of supernatural powers.
You missed out the bit about Mossad did 9/11 to begin ‘war on (of)terror’ and did 7/7 cos of massive anti-war mvment in UK. And created ISIS.
That the Israelis jammed U.S. Navy radio frequencies and first of all attacked the Liberty’s radio antennas speaks volumes about their intentions.
The fundamental dishonesty of the term conspiracy theory is that state crime requires a conspiracy to be effected. When a state has impunity, no conspiracy is required. US government attempts at concealment have failed in the case of the JFK and MLK executions but with no independent judiciary or freedom of information, the government can maintain a ‘case-closed’ pretense. Impunity also negates overwhelming evidence of state involvement in armed attacks on domestic civilian populations including the Oklahoma City bombing, the WTC bombing, 9/11, Amerithrax, and the Boston Marathon bombings.
I have only just looked at what Quick has been saying.
Britain should lay on FLIGHTS to Syria for Islamist fanatics who want to join ISIS and not let them back, says former anti-terror police chief Bob Quick said it could be safer to help UK extremists leave the country
Ex Scotland Yard assistant commissioner said fanatics are ‘festering’ in UK
He said the terror threat posed by ISIS had grown since bombings in 2005
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3152265/Britain-lay-FLIGHTS-Syria-Islamist-fanatics-want-join-ISIS-says-former-anti-terror-police-chief.html
He’s the thickie who displayed confidential briefing notes on his way into No 10. Resigned on a fat pension and was running a limo company as reported.
I see the appalling war criminal and wife were at St Paul’s.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/07/14/2A4BD30100000578-0-image-m-16_1436276601908.jpg
So many mentions of him in the piece and even a video.
…and of course war crimes by aggressor nations that have corrupted the state with a treasonous fifth column
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ussliberty.html
For an account of one bombing incident in Israel by British mercenaries trying to frame the Palestinians, see http://www.hermajestysothersecretservice.blogspot.com
Daniel : “Friendly fire is extremely commonplace. I might as well ask you whether you believe the IDF is the most competent military organisation in the world?”
I have no way of judging the competence of the IDF since almost everything I have heard about it has come through the Western media which I do not believe can be trusted on this subject. However, since you ask, I would GUESS that it is not very competent because it doesn’t need to be :
Number of tanks:
Israel = 3000+ ; Palestine = 0
Number of armoured personnel carriers:
Israel = 10,484 ; Palestine = 0
Number of artillery pieces:
Israel = 5,432 ; Palestine = 0
Number of nuclear armed submarines:
Israel = 3 ; Palestine = 0
Number of other combat ships:
Israel = 57 ; Palestine = 0
Number of combat-capable aircraft:
Israel = 168 fighters, 227 ground attack fighters, 65 attack aircraft, 86 transport ; Palestine = 0
Number of helicopters:
Israel = 81 attack helicopters, 200 transport ; Palestine = 0
Number of surface-to-air missile launchers:
Israel = 48 SAMS, 920 guns ; Palestine = 0
Number of nuclear warheads:
Israel = 200 ; Palestine = 0
All,
I’m fed up of Hasbara on here.
Everybody should recognise the posts for what they are. Anon1 (5.05 PM) can’t even be bothered to give a name.
Mary asks where s/he is with good reason. Are they getting a payment for this?
Please don’t answer or humour them.
Craig’s post is spot on as usual.
The open sore of Palestine adds another dimension to all this.
“If we had not invaded Iraq, 7/7 would never have happened.”
As the late great Hitch said what can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence – but let us be fair and consider the facts: Al Qaeda was murdering people well before the invasion of Iraq, or Afghanistan for that matter – and not only that they were murdering people in countries that did not participate in the invasion of Iraq. Sure the 7/7 terrorists cited the invasion of Iraq in their sick video beforehand – but they also blamed the UK for being involved in Chechenya; so to say they had a well thought through rationale for their crimes is hardly a convincing argument.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/13/history.alqaida
As for the idiots attributing all the works of Al Qaeda to the US – perhaps they should pay attention to the words of their friend Moazzam Begg who is now saying that the reason why IS has grown is because we haven’t engaged with Al Qaeda and the clerics who back it.
http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/david-cameron-refusing-engage-only-people-who-can-stop-1982739573
I’m sorry but their comes a stage when the appeasement of such primitive barbarians has to stop – and I would say exactly the same to any barbarians whatever their race or religion.
Craig is full of Bull Biscuit. 911 or 7-7 attacks were designed to be happened so they could have legit covers/pretext for their barbarous bombings against Iraqis, Afghanis, and anywhere else.
Could someone tell me whom I should have believed into the 7-7 attackers or this Craig Murrary who “Had” believed into Toni bLIAR’s fairy tales (of 7-7 London Tube attacks)?
Mr. Murray, would you please drop your mask and entertain us who’s been paying you?
Despite all that weaponry, the Israeli military has not acquitted itself well in its recent wars. Max Blumenthal discusses in his new book The 51 Day War: Ruin and Resistance in Gaza the poor performance of the Israeli military in the most recent Gaza war.
Edited transcript of journalist Paul McNamara’s report on this evenings Channel 4 News:
“London: a magnate for the super wealthy looking to benefit from sky-rocketing property prices while avoiding the taxes the rest of us have to pay.
The government has said it’s clamping down on tax avoidance to help pay for the deficit and that some of these practices are linked to the very top.
Denning Mews, a smart new development in west London, is worth millions of pounds. Before the luxury apartments and iron gates went up behind me, this land used to be owned by a company called Osborne and Little – the family business of chancellor George Osborne.
We discovered that the chancellors family business sold the land to developers via s secretive offshore company that have legally avoided British taxes.
For years Osborne has been a staunch critic of tax avoidance describing the practice as “morally repugnant.”
Osborne continues:
“The message is clear, if you are hiding your money offshore we are coming to get you.”
During the election campaign he trotted out the same line to Channel 4 News. But despite all his strong words, it seems that his own family firm had no problems in teaming up with an offshore company for a 6 million pound property deal.
Plans and deeds obtained by Channel 4 indicate that Osborne and Little joined forces with a developer called Nightingale Mews based in the British Virgin Islands.
Together they submitted plans to Wandsworth council to develop the site for 16 upmarket mews houses and blocks of flats all with underground parking.
If the plan was approved, Nightingale would buy the land for 6 million pounds which it did in May 2005. At the time George Osborne was already shadow chancellor.
The register of members interests reveals that Osborne was the beneficiary of the trust fund which owned more than 15% of Osborne and Little. George Osborne would have personally benefited from the sale.
Channel 4 commissioned a leading tax expert who stated it is inconceivable that Osborne and Little would have been unaware that they were dealing with an offshore company.
According to the expert, “the company bought the property, renovated it, sold it, profited financially from it and instead of paying UK tax on the profit, it realized the profit tax free.”
The developer, Osborne and Little – the close relative of the Chancellor who claimed to be coming after those who avoid taxes – made a clear tax free profit of 14 million pounds on the sale. The treasury lost 2 million pounds in avoided taxes. The company was dissolved shortly after the sale.
Data from the land registry reveal more than 73,000 homes in the UK are owned by companies based in offshore tax havens.
George Osborne’s office refused to answer any questions put to them by Channel 4 News.
Tomorrow the chancellor will unveil billions of pounds of cuts to welfare payments for the working poor.
But what will he do to tackle tax avoidance by the super rich and stem their appetite for the lucrative London property market, tax free?”
And yes, folks, we really are all in it together.
I should add that I can agree with a lot of what Craig (and Suhayl’s more nuanced views – who recognises that we have to support those progressive forces who oppose the tyrants and extremists) says about western interference being ill directed, badly thought through and muddle headed – but I’m afraid that doesn’t take away the case for liberal interventionism it such says that it nature has to be different.
Daniel
This is of course what happens when progressive forces within the UK are split apart – Divide and Conquer has always been the Tory game.
Node, the point I’m making is that its somewhat unrealistic to expect the Israeli’s, who are arguably the world’s greatest rogue state, to avoid engaging in acts of friendly fire. I seem to recall that during Gulf War 1, the allies had some difficulty in targeting the right country.
The fact that both Saudi Arabia and Israel are aiding ISIS at the moment tells you everything you need to know about some of the most disgusting regimes on Earth (note that ISIS never attack Jewish targets, but didn’t mind butchering 30 British tourists just recently).
The most disgusting regime of all, though, is USUK. The leaders of USUK need to be put on trial for crimes against humanity.
They commit these crimes every day against their own people, let alone those who live overseas.
Utter vermin.
The crimes of the U.S. government against its own people are spelled out in John W. Whitehead’s book Battlefield America: The War On the American People.
The crimes of the UK government against its own people are spelled out in Owen Jones’s book The Establishment: And How They Get Away with it.
Reading the comments on here is often very surreal, because a large number don’t seem to accept/understand that USUK kill a huge number of people every year in the name of corporate profit.
We are not the good guys.
We are the bad guys.
Wholly agree with this, and Craig’s previous post. Our response to “Isis” illustrates that we have become no more sophisticated than the Victorian portrayal of the “Mad Mahdi”. .
Good to see that this occurred to you, too…
Today the BBC is wall to wall 7/7 commemoration.
In which the true instigator of the disaster, Tony Blair, had the supreme, irony-blinded, self-excusing gall to participate.
The military take on the event here:
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/proper-remembering.217260/
Please try and remember that Tommy Atkins, Jack and whatever crabs are called are human too.
Resident Dissident, at 9:26pm. Yes, I agree that we ought not to be working with any of these organisations.
The trouble is, it is highly likely that we are, and have been, not in order to appease them but because we see them as useful tactical instruments.
For example – I know I keep coming back to this but I do because I think it may be emblematic – what exactly were MI5/6 doing with Moazaam Begg that led them to stop his trial in its tracks? I think the British public has a right to know.
Might it be the case that while one arm of the state – the visible, at least partly accountable arm – is trying to stop domestic manifestations of terrorism, the other arm – the covert, in essence hardly accountable at all arm – is cooperating and abetting those same forces where those forces are perceived as being useful abroad, eg. in (now) Syria, Libya and Iran, as well as in 1980s Pakistan-Afghanistan, 1990s Chechnya, 1990s Bosnia, etc.? Was this not partly what the concept of ‘Londonstan’ was about? It wasn’t just permissive liberal naivete; it was realpolick calculus of an almost ‘Saudi’ nature (i.e. facilitate their use of the UK as a political launching pad so long as they don’t attack here). That domestic approach – at least publicly – blew up 10 years ago.
Obviously the societies from which such movements derive have real problems (to put it mildly). As is evident I hope form my multiple posts on this blog over the years, the solutions are not just in the hands of the USA/UK/’West’. But to date, sadly, one way or another, we – esp. the USA/UK – seem to have been very much a significant part of the problem. The attack on Iraq was the most shamefully and openly obvious sign of mendacity. But in general, I don’t think really we’ve been acting in good faith (when I say, ‘we’, I mean the foreign policy/military/corporate entity) . And that, really, is the root of the issue here.
Lysias, no doubt you saw this piece by Greenwald last year…
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/17/democracy-really-means-u-s-jargon-subservience-u-s/
Also noticeable are his bodyguards that are paid for out of our tax monies. Austerity somehow does not affect the numbers of the bodyguards and their lavish salaries and expenses, cost of training, and keeping current with their skills ie shooting the crap out of the targets in the range!
Austerity is for Mrs Miggins who has a cupboard extra and gets taxed on that, and the food bank clients whom after having worked a sixty hours a week still have not enough money to cover the cost of feeding their families.
That swine of mass murder has enough money and get enough retainers form none other than the chief banksters for doing his bit for creating mayhem and destruction of sovereign countries turning these into failed basket cases.
Oh, and the psychos in Washington are trying to overthrow President Correa again…
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/telesuragenda/Right-Wing-Attack-on-Ecuadors-Democracy-20150614-0011.html
This is the same President Correa who in August 2012 granted Julian Assange political asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy in London.
Suhayl, what I’d like to know is how the covert state has the power to overrule the visible state, even though under law the visible state is the one that should have the power to overrule the covert state.