I was called a traitor by a Conservative MEP in a committee meeting of the European Parliament to which I was giving eyewitness evidence on the UK’s complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition. Doubtless that is recorded in the minutes of the meeting, which means I am marked down on a forest of European Parliament paper as a traitor in each of the European Union’s 24 official languages.
Nobody turned a hair, least of all me. There were some giggles as the Tory MEP immediately walked out of the meeting, which was viewed as childish. But nobody thought of it as way outside the normal levels of political discourse. Indeed it was quite mild by European parliamentary standards. It is, of course, perfectly true that I used to represent the United Kingdom and now it is my dearest wish to destroy it as an institution. It is therefore arguable that I am technically a traitor. I am not scared of names.
My Scottish readers will have realised that this disquisition on treachery is a reference to the Labour Party’s published dossier of evil cybernats. The majority of those cited qualified as evil because of use of the word traitor. I am devastated I did not get included. I am unsure that my ego will ever recover.
It seems to me that, in an argument which revolves around what constitutes a nation, the idea of treachery to the nation is one that logically is bound to intrude, on all sides. Indeed it can be shown to intrude into the entire discourse around unionism and nationalism over centuries. I have used the term myself.
It seems to me context is important. There is a legitimate discourse on whether treachery to either the United Kingdom or to Scotland is involved in the independence conundrum. To make plain that some consider a position or act as traitorous has a place in robust political debate. I deplore the idea that politics must be reduced to genteel commonplaces over tiny areas of disagreement. Passion is important. But to imply violent retribution is different, and comes under bullying and threat.
“Traitor” should not be shunned like a racist epithet. It carries a meaning which is important.
Technicolour; “You, Macky are just lying”
Wow ! Head in the sand denial ! People can read Clark’s Poll for themselves;
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/ispopal.html
“In April, a poll for the Israeli Democracy Institute showed that 60 percent of Israelis were in favour of peace negotiations with the Palestinian Authority.”
Clark; What were you saying about the Media manipulations of public opinion? Why would Israel be exempt from your appraisal? It seems peaceful Israelis are just as malleable as Americans when they respond to cleverly worded polls which skew the data with alacrity. Independent, critical thinking is what is missing from ANY country’s electorate. Easy-peasy is the way out for those who seek no accountability for their decisions at the polls or when asked by a poll. people lie all the time.
???? Why am I asked a question about something that was never posted here?
Athens is abuzz with wild rumours of a junta taking over. These wild rumours originate in a statement by Mr Kamenos, the Greek Defence Minister and head of the right-wing, nationalist party ANEL, that the armed forces would if necessary “assure order”.
ANEL is the coalition partner in the SYRIZA led government, providing SYRIZA with its (very) small majority in the Vouli.
It is not ‘Clark’s poll’, you disingenuous poster, it is a poll with the question “What is your position on holding peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority?”. In the latest poll, 66.7 percent of the Israeli public were either strongly or moderately in favour of holding peace negotiations. It is there on the page, half way down.
I leave it to other people to decide why a poster try to first obfusticate and then claim the opposite.
*why a poster would* – I keep being interrupted by household normality.
“Clark; What were you saying about the Media manipulations of public opinion?”
The polls in favour of peace negotiations are consistent. Look at the links.
Lysias
I thought you were encouraging people to read Mondoweiss?
At least, that’s what it seemed like when you wrote “I think that by saying nothing I will increase the probability that readers here will take a look at Mondoweiss” earlier on?
++++++++++++++
And now – which blockade was that?
Technicolour, Blair was instrumental in the establishment of the Northern Irish peace agreement. Netanyahu boasted about derailing the Oslo accords.
Habbabkuk; “Exit the Clown, stage left……”
Coming from you that’s funny, in case you haven’t heard yet, the other side just blinked up a sum of an extra 50 billion.
What are the chances of anybody ever writing the following about “Legend in his own mind” Habby !;
“What has been abundantly clear from the start is the intellectual and moral superiority of Varoufakis as compared with all the other players in this Greek and European tragedy. He writes with total clarity, objectiveness and reasonableness in beautifully constructed English, which is an unalloyed pleasure to read, not least because of its rarity. He shows up so much of what we read, see and hear elsewhere for its vacuity, and English isn’t even his native language. Where have you read such literary and honest writing from any other politician recently? I don’t know what those in Greece and outside of that country think of his political mandate, but his logical and moral mandate is total. In effect, he’s running rings around the other negotiators, not by shouting or bullying or pleading or manipulating, but by being absolutely true to his own principles and the reality of the Greek and European predicament. Eventually, however much one may try to ignore it, reality will have its way and, if his own citizens support him and also understand this reality, so too will Varoufakis.
And in regard to the legality of leaving the Eurozone, read the paper posted to this page a few threads ago. But Varoufakis has throughout this mentally bruising process been nothing if not consistent; he is a democrat, he will always behave true to his own principles. If he can’t find a legal way of exiting the Euro, and I’m sure he’s had a very good look for one, he is obliged to say so. In his own conscience, he’s not going to be the one acting “illegally”, even if others might be happy to point out the greyness of this area. He’s placed responsibility for such action firmly where it needs to be placed, in the rest of the Eurozone. ”
(from a Medialens poster.)
Ah, so it was on Mondoweiss. If something was said on Mondoweiss (I assume by someone calling himself “Lysias”), and someone has a question about it, isn’t the appropriate place to ask about it on Mondoweiss?
“I leave it to other people to decide why a poster try to first obfusticate and then claim the opposite.”
If you follow Macky’s line of reasoning, it’s clear he is not obfuscating at all. In fact, his reasoning is lucid and articulate.
Courtenay Barnett.
You asked Craig what he wears under his kilt.
As a true Scotsman I can help you out here.
There is nothing “worn” under a true Scotsman’s kilt.
It is all in “perfect working order”.
Boom, Boom!!.
“70 percent of the poll respondents agreed or strongly agreed with the statement “Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel in both Gaza and the West Bank.” This attitude is corroborated by the 73 percent of Gazans who said Palestinians should adopt “proposals for (nonviolent) popular resistance against the occupation.” Similarly, when asked if Hamas should accept Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas’s position that the new unity government renounce violence against Israel, a clear majority (57 percent) answered in the affirmative”
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire
Or, since it’s the Washington Institute:
BETHLEHEM (Ma’an) — An overwhelming majority of Gaza residents support a long-term truce with Israel and oppose the disarmament of the Palestinian resistance, a poll released on Saturday showed.
http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/palestinians-americans-refuse.html
There are more. Anyone going to diss them?
Speaking of coups in Greece, interesting letter that appeared recently in the Financial Times: EU attempts a coup d’état by stealth in Greece:
Given how unpopular military rule is in Greece after the rule of the Colonels, I dare say this is the only kind of coup that is likely to occur in Greece.
This is now going stir crazy:
“Technicolour, Blair was instrumental in the establishment of the Northern Irish peace agreement. Netanyahu boasted about derailing the Oslo accords.”
Afghanistan? Iraq? No amount of question marks will underscore that enough. Btw, no matter how much credence you give his book, it was Mo Mowlam who made the breakthrough (although of course Campbell et al have tried to expunge her from the narrative – successfully, it appears)
“If you follow Macky’s line of reasoning, it’s clear he is not obfuscating at all. In fact, his reasoning is lucid and articulate”
And would you like to try and explain that, rather than stating it?
No, of course, the heavily outnumbered and outgunnned poor Palestinians should stick with the narrative prescribed by feckless dope-smokers in the safe West, ignore the majority voices for peace on both sides, and fight for the said dope-smokers’ edification and evening entertainment (and incidentally for the profit of the arms dealers and robbers in charge). That would be the best way, wouldn’t it. Shut up, all you Palestinians for peace, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
“switching to the Palestinians ?!!”
It is (gritted teeth) people on both ‘sides’.
“It is (gritted teeth) people on both ‘sides’.”
I don’t hear gnashing of teeth for Paleys, just the poor beleaguered Israeli electorate of peace-niks.
[ Mod: A bunch of bickering one-line comments have been deleted ]
The people are never ‘non-descript and unidentifiable’. They/we are what make you able to walk down your street. No referees. I suggest you read Wilde’s ‘The Soul of Man Under Socialism’, to start off with.
Religious extremism is a relatively modern phenomenon. American Protestant fundamentalism was the first to surface in modern times. Early in the 20th century the Protestants began reading religious scripture in a literal way, as though it were scientific fact. Before then, people read scripture in a more allegorical, mystical way. Islamic fundamentalism didn’t come along until later in the 20th century.
It should be noted that Protestant extremists continue to rule American political life.
Victory? Ah, again, some kind of cheap point-scoring exercise while real people live and die in the margins. I wonder, how close you have been to deaths in a war zone.
Tech; Did you serve in IDF?
Concerning Kindles – personally, I regard them as another device of the devil. It subjects the user to DRM (Digital Rights Management). It is devastating small bookshops, if the mega-bookstores and the likes of Amazon wasn’t enough.
You cannot give away or resell e-books. Should Amazon or whoever see fit, you suddenly lose the right to use the e-books you already have. You can’t share books among friends, there will be no more second hand bookstores. Revenue is based solely on individual readers granted a limited licence, than on books sold.
Take a look at the agreement page on an ordinary book. Understand it? Great. Now tell me anyone who’s even skimmed, let alone fully read and understood, the Kindle licence agreement (aswell as the DRM “agreement”).
Not content with knowing which e-books you’ve bought, how fast you go through them, how many you’ve got and so on, this device will also notice how long you might linger on a particular passage, or your bookmarking habits. It’s effectively having that invisible hand (not of the market, just of some ghastly corporate entity) watching over your shoulder the entire time, noting every action.
Just so they can serve you better with future suggestions, naturally.
/ rant off /
‘how close you have been to deaths in a war zone’
Ask the men, women and children in Gaza who survived the last onslaught and the one before that and the one before that………
PS I thought you said goodnight some time back. I am saying it now.
Good heavens, I believe that by ‘Paleys’ Ben might have meant ‘Palestinians’. Rather than people with paler faces. ‘Feel’ for people driven off their lands, imprisoned, starved, bombed, sprayed with white phosphorous, demonised, slow genocided – er yes, you could say I ‘feel’ for them.
So, you see ‘Paleys’ through the looking glass of Israel. I’m sure many Israeli’s ‘feel’ for them, but what are they prepared to sacrifice to make peace?
No, I thought by ‘Paleys’ you were referring to the settlers. I am not Israeli. I am UK. But what was I prepared to sacrifice for the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq? I’m not going to tell you, because whatever I did, it wasn’t enough, and it didn’t feel like a sacrifice. What were you prepared to do to stop your own country’s Shock and Awe? Unless you were imprisoned for it (as Israeli conscientious objectors have been) I don’t expect you’ll want to tell me, either,