I was called a traitor by a Conservative MEP in a committee meeting of the European Parliament to which I was giving eyewitness evidence on the UK’s complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition. Doubtless that is recorded in the minutes of the meeting, which means I am marked down on a forest of European Parliament paper as a traitor in each of the European Union’s 24 official languages.
Nobody turned a hair, least of all me. There were some giggles as the Tory MEP immediately walked out of the meeting, which was viewed as childish. But nobody thought of it as way outside the normal levels of political discourse. Indeed it was quite mild by European parliamentary standards. It is, of course, perfectly true that I used to represent the United Kingdom and now it is my dearest wish to destroy it as an institution. It is therefore arguable that I am technically a traitor. I am not scared of names.
My Scottish readers will have realised that this disquisition on treachery is a reference to the Labour Party’s published dossier of evil cybernats. The majority of those cited qualified as evil because of use of the word traitor. I am devastated I did not get included. I am unsure that my ego will ever recover.
It seems to me that, in an argument which revolves around what constitutes a nation, the idea of treachery to the nation is one that logically is bound to intrude, on all sides. Indeed it can be shown to intrude into the entire discourse around unionism and nationalism over centuries. I have used the term myself.
It seems to me context is important. There is a legitimate discourse on whether treachery to either the United Kingdom or to Scotland is involved in the independence conundrum. To make plain that some consider a position or act as traitorous has a place in robust political debate. I deplore the idea that politics must be reduced to genteel commonplaces over tiny areas of disagreement. Passion is important. But to imply violent retribution is different, and comes under bullying and threat.
“Traitor” should not be shunned like a racist epithet. It carries a meaning which is important.
@Republicofscotland
1 Jul, 2015 – 8:07 pm
You’ll notice how I don’t mention Israel in any of this, although of course Israel is the elephant in the room.
[Mod: Please don’t refer to particulars on the previous thread ]
Bottom line is, Israel is a small state, and most of the population of that state are quite sane, and just want to live in peace with their neighbours.
But then we have the neocon psychos…
@Becky Cohen, that’s rather a long winded way of simply saying;
“one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”
“Bottom line is… most of the population of [Israel] just want to live in peace with their neighbours.”
Nonsense:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183441#.VZRG6BtVikp
95% of Israeli Jews supported the most recent (2014) Gaza war. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israeli-polls-support-gaza-campaign-media
It does not seem to me to follow automatically from the fact that I was born in the United Kingdom, that I should feel that I owe the “nation” any particular loyalty. I had no say over where I was born.
Kind regards,
John
Every person of conscience, everybody who is capable of empathy, is a traitor to the puppets that control the puppets, that obey the Black Hole of Greed !;
“The Russians have that pretty well figured out by now. Yes, maintaining a dialogue and cordial directions with the Europeans is important. But it is well understood that the Europeans are just a bunch of American puppets with no will or decision-making authority of their own, so why not talk to the Americans directly? Alas, the Americans too are puppets. The American officials and politicians are definitely puppets, controlled by corporate lobbyists and shady oligarchs. But here’s a shocker: these are also puppets—controlled by the simple imperatives of profitability and wealth preservation, respectively. In fact, it’s puppets all the way down. And what’s at the bottom is a giant, ever-expanding, financial black hole.”
http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-care-and-feeding-of-financial-black.html#more
Daniel, please don’t post links to Israeli propaganda sites.
If you want what you’re saying to be taken as credible, link to news reports that all sides of the arguement will accept.
Oh, but I forget, this is endless arguement and violence, isn’t it.
It’s what the psychos want, and has zilch to do with real Israeli public opinion.
O/T but speaking of Uzbekistan, how about Galia.
‘One potential buyer is Lots Road’s biggest fan – Uzbekistani millionaire Galia who, with eleven properties to furnish, is always likely to help boost sales. But will she find what she’s looking for ….’.
She features in a Channel 4 series entitled The Auction House. In tonight’s episode she was shown frittering away £25k on garden items such as a gazebo, a bronze fountain featuring horses’ heads, some statues of sheep, etc. etc.
Another world. No child poverty. No food banks. No Working Tax Credits. Just rich airheads. Where do they get their money?
‘THE AUCTION HOUSE 5/5
01 Jul 2015, 20:00
Major William Shuttleworth has come to the end of his six-month trial period as general manager of Lots Road. While boss Roger Ross ponders whether or not to keep him on, William’s possible successor Nick Carter plans this week’s auction: a garden sale to celebrate the coming of summer. With gazebos, fountains, model sheep and statues including a bronze elephant, Nick is thinking big – almost as big as the gardens of Lots Road’s wealthy clientele. Hoteliers Mandy and Martin have, among other properties, an 11-bedroom mansion and its extensive grounds to fill, but could face stiff competition from big-spending regulars Galia and Michael. Meanwhile, kaftan-loving Megan is after some greenery for the terrace of her riverside penthouse apartment, which used to be owned by Andy Murray. Will the garden sale bear fruit? And will William hold on to his job? ‘
Macky, this will likely be of interest to you – it certain was to me:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article38441.htm
RoS – great Galloway clip, thanks for that! I love to see Galloway dishing it out.
Macky – we need ‘fewer’ shills, not ‘less’, surely? 🙂
Apparently offences classed as high treason in this country include:
“committing adultery with the sovereign’s consort, with the sovereign’s eldest unmarried daughter, or with the wife of the heir to the throne.” (Wikipedia).
Blimey. There’s been a thundering lot of high treason about in our lifetimes, hasn’t there?
Kind regards,
John
Thanks for explaining that Lysias.
Clark Don’t say that @ 6.51. It’s not true.
RobG. ‘Bottom line is, Israel is a small state, and most of the population of that state are quite sane, and just want to live in peace with their neighbours.’ You are quite wrong there. You have surprised me with your comment.
Israeli polls show overwhelming support for Gaza campaign …
http://www.theguardian.com › World › Israel
31 Jul 2014 – The findings were echoed in a separate poll, also published this week, in which 86% of Israeli Jews said they supported the war. Fewer than …
More than 90 percent of Israeli Jews support Gaza war
http://www.haaretz.com/…/haaretz-poll-more-than-90-percent-of-israeli-jews-s...
19 Nov 2012 – Six days into the aerial attack on Gaza, 84 percent of the Israeli public supports Operation Pillar of Defense, with 12 percent opposing it, …
Lysias, 95% of Israeli Jews are as brainwashed by the corporate controlled media as people in Britain and America are.
The simple fact is that the vast majority of people never want to go to war. They are brainwashed into it by the socios and psychos who are in power.
KOWN; “Macky – we need ‘fewer’ shills, not ‘less’, surely? :)”
Always pleased to have grammar errors corrected, but if you spot any typos, please leave for Habby, as they make (or is it ‘get’?) him very excited ! 😀
RobG,
The link referenced a survey which illustrates that your contention Israeli’s are nothing but a bunch of peace loving egalitarians, and therefore have nothing in common with their government, is bollocks.
Mary
1 Jul, 2015 – 4:15 pm
“I am retiring until it (this blog and the weather) cools down.
In soon to be leafless Surrey if these temperatures continue, the thermometer outside and out of the sun is reading 41C at the moment.”
_______________________
I take it that everybody feeling the heat in the country today, like Mary, have spared a moment of thought and empathy with the poorest of the poor people, especially those that live in the tropics across Africa, Asia and the Americas, who cannot afford a fan or air-conditioning and have no clean water to drink, enduring temperatures and climate much harsher than we.
Mary and Lysias, those surveys showing high support for Israel’s war on Gaza were taken during that war. Technicolour is the expert on this, but surveys just before the war, (though also rather differently worded) showed a majority (or possibly a minority in the 40% region – I forget) opposed to starting the war.
A similar effect was seen in surveys in the UK before and during the 2003 war on Iraq. I believe the effect is common and well-documented. More people support their governments’ wars after they have been started.
There is a strong peace movement within Israel and amongst Israelis outside Israel. We must support that peace movement, not deny its existence.
Another defense of Janner in the Torygraph: Lord Janner’s prosecution has nothing to do with justice: Peer’s vengeance-inspired ‘trial of facts’ turns our principles of law and a fair hearing on their head.
Author Dan Hodges complains that at a trial of the facts there can be no defense. Is that true? Can’t Janner’s family or some representative of Janner himself appoint a lawyer to mount a defense?
Remember Israel’s Occupy movement; barely reported in the UK media. Remember their argument with the “settlers” that turned up from the illegally occupied territories.
In fact, in The Guardian, Rajeev Syal maintains precisely the opposite, that at a trial of the facts there are lawyers for the defense. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/29/lord-janner-case-what-is-trial-of-the-facts
Uri Avnery and other left-wing Israelis were roughed up by right-wing thugs when they attempted to mount an antiwar demonstration in Tel Aviv during the 2014 Gaza War.
Max Blumenthal’s Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel, published shortly before the 2014 war, is a good description of how insanely right-wing and militaristic most of Israel has become.
Mary, I guarantee you that most people in Israel just want to live in peace.
Perhaps we can hear from a regular Jane/Joe who actually lives in Israel? The voices of real people are rarely heard in the West, because of the massive propaganda machine.
I fully support the Palestinian cause, and I think you’ll find that a lot of people in Israel also do. You rarely hear their voices, though, because of that massive propaganda machine (which all stems from the good ole US of A).
To label all Israelis as ‘bad people’ is wrong.
Max Blumenthal has a new book out, The 51-Day War: Ruin and Resistance in Gaza, about the latest Gaza war, which I now have on my Kindle and will start reading after I finish the book I’m currently reading on it.
“I fully support the Palestinian cause, and I think you’ll find that a lot of people in Israel also do.”
91% of Israeli Jews support Israel’s campaign against the people of Gaza and just 4.2% believe the operation is a “mistake.”
85% of respondents would only support a cease-fire agreement if Israel eliminated every Hamas rocket and destroyed the full network of terror tunnels before agreeing to do so.
77% of Israeli Jews polled “very strong support” for Operation Protective Edge’s airstrikes on Gaza. Just 1.5% of respondents opposed the said airstrikes.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183441#.VZRYKBtVikp
Mary
01/07/2015 7:13pm
RIP Sir Nicholas Winton indeed. The mother of a close relative of mine by marriage, was one of the children saved by Winton, so her daughter wouldn’t be here now if it had not been for him. He was a brave and principled man by all accounts.
Kind regards, John
@Daniel
1 Jul, 2015 – 9:46 pm
Why all the abuse and calls for violence and war?
I can only assume that you went to the same boarding school as Habba.
Daniel, to repeat again, try to give links to credible news organisations to back up what you’re saying.
This is the real world here, and if you don’t like it go back to the zombie mainstream media world, which will cater to all your hates and prejudices.
RobG,
I have presented you with the facts. Accept them, or ignore them. I really don’t care either way.
“More people support their governments’ wars after they have been started.”
To repeat, 91% of Israeli Jews support Israel’s campaign against the people of Gaza:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183441#.VZRckRtVikp
Lysias
01/07/2015 9:54pm
I don’t know what Dan Hodges of the Telegraph is talking about, the Crown Prosecution Service clearly states that the defendant in a trial of the facts is entitled to present a defence.
“The issue of fitness to plead will be decided by the Judge not the jury (ss 4 (5) Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964) on the written or oral evidence of two or more registered medical practitioners, at least one of whom must be duly approved under section 12 Mental Health Act 1983… If the Judge finds that the defendant is unfit to plead, the jury will decide whether the defendant did the act or made the omission charged against him. (ss 4A (2) Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act 1964).
Prosecutors should consider the extent and nature of the evidence that needs to be adduced to satisfy the jury that the defendant did the act or made the omission charged. Failure to do so will result in the acquittal of the defendant. If there is objective evidence which raises the issue of mistake, accident or self defence, then the jury should not find that the defendant did the act unless satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the prosecution has disproved that defence (R v Antoine [2000] UKHL 20). In many cases, the defence will agree that relevant statements can be read pursuant to section 9 Criminal Justice Act 1967…”
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/mentally_disordered_offenders/
Perhaps the point Hodges is trying to make is that a defendant who is unfit to plead is unable to instruct counsel. That is not the same as counsel not being able to present a defence.
Kind regards,
John