Zionism is bullshit. Three thousand years ago my Celtic ancestors were casting sacred swords into the lakes of Switzerland. Can I go back and claim Switzerland? No. Of course not. It’s nonsense.
I am rather proud of that critique, which still seems to me a short and elegant refutation of the basis of Zionism. I have never seen it answered with anything approaching intellectual success. I am especially proud as it came to me in a moment of inspiration, in the final 12 seconds of an allocated three minute speech to a crowd that stretched further than I could see.
A Ghanaian came up to me in an Accra hotel yesterday and said “Craig Murray. Zionism is bullshit. I miss London.” He then dashed off. It reminded me what a small and interconnected world we live in, as well as leading me to dig out the reference.
I have another motive in posting it. This blog now has a much larger regular readership than it did a few years ago. In particular, following the referendum campaign, it has a much larger readership in Scotland. Since I returned to Scotland to campaign in the referendum and then decided to stay until we achieve independence, which I am determined will be before I kick the bucket, a number of voices have been raised to query who I am and where I come from, in the wider sense of the latter. Sometimes those voices have been hostile or suspicious. I shall therefore give the odd riffle through the back catalogue. You could of course buy my autobiography Murder in Samarkand, thus helping us to eat.
My comment seems to have hit a nerve to the extent that I receive a free amateur psychoanalysis for which thanks. ‘There, there dear. You will feel better later’. Patronizing.
None of the armchair experts here have a clue as to what’s it like up, close and personal for the Palestinians nor do they appreciate that however many words are generated on this and other blogs on solutions, one bloody state, two bloody states, whatever, NOTHING will change.
By the way I am too long in the tooth not to be able to recognize a Zionist shill/troll by now. I will continue to plough my own furrow but not on here.
“NOTHING will change” Mary, 7:31am.
Indeed. Sadly. That is why I am not optimistic about the situation. Change is possible. But really, the USA and Israel do not want change, other than that which entails the gradual takeover of the Occupied West Bank by religious supremacist Israeli settlers.
This is a blog – a modified log. ‘Words’ is what it’s about. But words are important, otherwise propaganda would have no purpose and there would be no hasbara and so on. You use words, so do I. So we all have contributed to the acres of words and we continue to plough our own furrows. Yet the furrows are in the same field. Perhaps eventually there will be an olive tree which a bulldozer will not uproot.
How would you prefer the Israel / Palestine conflict resolved? And what is your personal involvement with it?
Clark, anyone with a modicum of humanity and a shred of compassion would be angry at the everyday carnage that is unfolding in the occupied lands of Palestine. The apartheid practiced in zionistan, as manifest in the heart of the West bank, has “Jewish only” roads, that are forbidden to Palestinians to drive on or commute through. This segregation in the full sense of the word further is extended to access to water; the essence of life itself. Whilst Gaza has been under a regimen of total siege from land, sea , and air
Additionally on regular intervals the euphemistically; “mowing the grass” is engaged in by the zionistani thugs in uniform. During these attacks the whatever remains of the degraded infrastructure of the Palestinians is further destroyed and degraded through bombing runs and missile attacks, as well as more Palestinians killed and maimed, without any access to hospitals, etc. For these facilities have been targeted and destroyed. The water and sewerage facilities have been long destroyed in a destroy today and kill down the road for many years technique (waterborne diseases, etc.).
The aggression and mendacious barbarism of zionists is a stain on human consciousness that has been made tolerable through the support of the oligarch owned media and their covering up of the zionists aberrant behavior. That in turn providing the bedrock for the selected political pooh bahs to get on with funneling money (our taxation funds etc), weapons to zionistan. In addition to the said operative facilitating the acceptance (keeping up the exceptionalism) of these psychotic supremacists in the UN and other international organizations, without any backlash or meaningful international reaction.
Notwithstanding the stark corruption of all human values, that this lab for research in oppression and formal “state” aggression is engaged in. Further yielded are; the insurance companies use of “truth software” to screen their customers claims. That is evidently developed there (coded elsewhere and attributed to). The implication of this kind of “preemptive intrusion” are enormous. The fact that our airport staff are “trained” to “look for” ie screen airport passengers as per the principles developed in the same oppression lab, ought to be alarming everyone and sadly it seems to have attracted no attention.
The constant drip feed of “accepted violence” that is broadcast on the oligarch owned and state media alike. These have desensitised we the people to the carnage and destruction that is taking place in those benighted occupied lands and across the mid east alike. This is reflected even in the debate and discussions on this blog!
The fact that the zionists are taking every opportunity to export their racist hatred and bigotry is openly debated, as in this long interview with Roberta Moore whom openly admits;
They are all ignoramuses and think we are fascists. They think the league (edl) is exploiting us, while it is really we who initiated the Jewish division. If anything, we are exploiting them.
Incidentally this is simple computer engineer “Alan Lake” referred to in the above.
Are these not enough for everyone to be personally involved in this nightmare situation Clark? What will it take for people to understand that the supremacists have no boundaries; geographic, moral, or otherwise. Their sense of entitlement and superiority oversteps all of the norms that the rest of us live by. Clark it is not me alone who is personally involved in this. You are also involved too, as well as Suhayl and the rest. Our lives are affected in one way or another by these cretinous supremacists whose shameful conduct has been so tacitly accepted and tolerated.
Suhayl you are a day late and a penny short, the idea of one state, or two state ……………… has been milked to the full and as the world has been witnessing the occupied lands of Palestine have come under further and secondary annexations to zionistan, that have systematically reduced the lands available for any would be state. Furthermore the notion of an independent Palestine is in reality is a short hand for an impotent, weak, unable/dependent and symbolic state that will be under the total control of the zionists. This concession is only to to put an acceptable face on these revolting supremacists.
The only available option now is eradication of zionism, as was the case for apartheid in South Africa. Only then a nation of Palestine can exist with Jews and Muslims living side by side with equal rights and equal access to resources, unlike the current actualities of segregation.
Eradication of apartheid was not the end of south Africa, so eradication of zionism will not be the end of the little strip of land. It will be the end of the rule of fascist supremacists whom have been oppressing the Jews and Muslims alike and corrupting our human values across the planet.
By the way I am too long in the tooth not to be able to recognize a Zionist shill/troll by now. I will continue to plough my own furrow but not on here.
Mary don’t give up and stop here!
OldMark
“That reminds me of an anecdote about Aneurin Bevan and Ernest Bevin. Someone once said to Enest Bevin “Aneurin is his own worst enemy”> In reply to which Bevin allegedly growled “Not while I’m alive he ain’t”.
You’re wrong there Habba- Ernest Bevin said that about Herbert Morrison, nor his near namesake-”
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You may well be right, OldMark – the chronology/political circumstances (in particular the year of Atlee’s stepping down as the leader of the Labour Party – when Bevin was already dead but Morrison and Bevin weren’t) are favorable to what you say.
I first came across the anecdote many years ago but my most recent encounter with it was when I re=read Sandbrook’s “Never Had It So Good”; there, Sandbrook has Bevan as the object of Bevin’s quip and gives as his source Alan Bullock’s biography of Ernest Bevin “Ernest Bevin: Foreign Secretary 1945-1951” (London, 1983, page 77). It may well be that Sandbrook’s researcher misread the source.
CORR: “…when Morrison and BEVAN weren’t…”.
Mary, strength to you. In the exchange above:
Me: “…the task is to win friends rather than annihilate enemies”
Habbabkuk: “…what makes you think I regard Mary as an enemy […]?”
…note that my question did not name you as Habbabkuk’s enemy; Habbabkuk made that identification himself, thereby accidentally answering his own question to me. Note also that I do not use the word “ego” as an inherently negative term as many “New Age” types do; I use it to mean a person’s self-image. As such, it can be strong, weak, inflated, insipid, accurate, inaccurate, etc.. As I said, strength to you, and I hope you continue to comment here.
Fedup, I have to go now so I’ll read your 8:44 am comment later – but at a glance, you’re probably preaching to the converted.
OldMark
Not my morning, obviously 🙂
My first para should have referred to the Morrison plot to have Atlee replaced as Labour leader when Atlee was still PM; so in the late 1940s and not 1954.
Clark
“…note that my question did not name you as Habbabkuk’s enemy;”
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Stoop being a weasel, Clark. Given the preceding posts, it was fairly obvious you were talking about Mary and me.
Thanks, Fed Up. I get the idea that a puppet state would be not much use and I also get the idea that the creation of a Palestinian state won’t solve all the world’s problems, or the problem of Zionism.
But I remain unclear about your position on whether or not you want to see the cretaion of an independent state of Palestine? Are you saying that you do not want to see the creation of an independent Palestinian state? Are you saying that a state for Jews and Palestinians with equal rights for all, not a ‘Jewish State’, between the River Jordan and the sea (which is usually what most people mean when they talk about the one state solution) is what you want? So, is it what Daniel was saying: a single democratic, secular state with no specific religious – i.e. neither Jewish, Christian nor Muslim – definition to it, i.e. not a Jewish state, not an Islamic state?
I know I’m pestering you – I’m sorry, truly. I just want to be clear in my understanding. Thank you.
It may well be that Sandbrook’s researcher misread the source.
That’s quite likely Habba- fact checkers and proof readers used by established historians aren’t what they used to be. For example, on p261 of Norman Stone’s ‘The Atlantic and its Enemies’ (published 2010- the same year as Sandbrook’s tome) I noticed this double howler-
‘There had been a great smog in London in the late Autumn of 1958…and a Clean Air Act followed, inhibiting domestic use of coal’.
1. The ‘Great Smog’ which prompted the Clean Air Act affected London in December 1952
2.The Clean Air Act itself was passed in 1956- two years before the date given by Stone for the ‘Great Smog’ which precipitated it.
The more pernickety book reviewers of popular works of history have noticed that obvious howlers see the light of day much more frequently today than 30-40 years ago.
“It was obvious to the world that the Jews needed a homeland after WW2”
Pity then, they didn’t stick to the pre-’67 border.
Suhayl the question of single state can only be possible through eradication of zionism, as was the case for apartheid south Africa. The day after the end of apartheid Afrikaners were not gathered and shipped to death camps, the Afrikaner women were not raped and taken to be sold on the slave markets, and the skies did not fall.
The same tired arguments were being forwarded by the Afrikaner supremacists, then as the zionist supremacists are forwarding now. The myths of Blacks were the descendants of Kain whom murdered Abel whose faces were blackened by the wrath of god, for these to bare the shame of being the descendants of a murderer!
Apparently god has a lot of tricks up his sleeve; blackening the faces of Kain’s sons and daughters, getting Abraham to promise the land to the Jews, and no doubt some lunatic Christian extremist will have god issuing an edict in line with his prejudices and hatreds, as is the case with the murderous Daesh that are using the god’s name to commit atrocities that would curl any sane and compassionate human being’s toes.
Using religion as a divisive tool instead of a cohesive force has long been the practice of those whom would wish to divide we the people with the aim to rule over we the people, it is a proven predatory tactic. As we are debating the angels on a pinhead the rampant supremacist zionists are murdering our fellow human beings, and plotting to murder more. These cannot and will not yield to any kind of reason or logic, as already I have said and Mark Golding has pointed out, zionism is a sickness of the mind, it is a mind virus and the sooner it is killed off and dispatched to the graveyard of ignominy the better.
Jews, Muslims, and Christians have long lived side by side in that land, and they could live side by side again in a heartbeat. However for that to happen the mind virus of zionism needs to be exorcised and disinfected. The notion of a Jewish only state is an anathema to the modern thinking, and the notion of zero sum game between Palestinians and Jews is the vitriolic product of the sick minds of zionists.
The fact is Palestinians cannot accept the existence of zionistan is all too often misconstrued as the Palestinians wish to drive the Jews into the sea!! A convenient misrepresentation and cover up of the racist apartheid that zionism has brought about in the occupied lands as well as the zionistasn itself. Palestinians can and will live side by side with Jews, however that means that return of the stolen lands and houses back to their rightful owners. The precedence is there, even as recent as a year or so back the works of art stolen by the Nazi have been returned back to their rightful owners. Hence this can be done, although those whom have left a deadbeat job, and a deadbeat life in Brooklyn to go and lord it over the Palestinians there in zionistan won’t be happy, but that is their tough luck and no one else’s.
A state for both Muslim Palestinians, and Jewish Palestinians and other Jews, along with Palestinian Christians is not an unreality, they are living there next to each other already, the only obstacle remaining is the sickness of the mind that is called zionism.
“A state for both Muslim Palestinians, and Jewish Palestinians and other Jews, along with Palestinian Christians is not an unreality, they are living there next to each other already,” Fed Up
I agree.
I agree with much of what you’re saying in this post. What I’m trying to get at is whether you think that a secular democratic state of (the Ottoman area)Palestine encompassing all these groups of people is the way to acheive your end, or whether you see an Islamic state in the area (or more generally, in the region) as the way of achieving it.
Thanks again, man.
Of course, we are talking here about the ideal, perhaps, rather than what actually might be possible (Israel in its present manifesttaion is not about to vanish). Even that which might actually be possible remains unlikely, since the USA has nopt proved willing to countenance it. Not even a weak, dependent state is deemed acceptable. But anyway.
Suhayl what has Islam to do with it all?
OldMark
Well, we seem to have found something we agree on! 🙂 That’s nice.
I found a couple of other errors of fact in vols 1 and 2 of Sandbrook’s enormous brick (eg Sicco Mansholt was described as a German politician) and felt it my duty to write and tell him (you will recognise the Habbabkuk of this blog in that, I suppose). No idea if there’s been a second edition and if so whether he’s done anything about it.
“A state for both Muslim Palestinians, and Jewish Palestinians and other Jews, along with Palestinian Christians is not an unreality,” Fed Up.
I’m asking whether your ideal situation in the Levant which you desribed above is that of a secular, democratic state, Palestine, of the type Daniel mentioned earlier in this thread, or whether you envisage an Islamic state in the Levant or more widely (where Jews, Christians and Muslims live together, etc.).
Obviously it ought to be up to the Palestinians. But I am asking what you think, what you would like to see.
Fedup, at last I have returned to the thread and read your comments and essentially, I agree – though I have not read thoroughly since it is late and I am tired.
It seems to me that your disagreement with Suhayl was a misunderstanding; I expect you would agree that there are other supremacisms as well as Zionist supremacism – indeed, you have mentioned Apartheid.
I’m in favour of asking and answering direct, simple questions. We always understand the points we are ourselves trying to make because we know our own thoughts which are the context. Those who read and respond to our comments lack that context, and simple, direct question-and-answer is the way to establish the context.
Sorry, I’m tired. Goodnight.
In other words, Fed Up, I suppose I’m asking whether you are advocating a caliphate or other type of Islamic state of which Palestine would be a part, or whether you are referring to a secular state of Palestine. It’s just so I’m clear about this.
Either way, I realise that you are advocating peace for all in the region.
Thanks again.
Yes, agree with this entirely. Zionism is bullshit of a high order. I don’t see it as standing on it’s own though. but as part of a trinity also comprising two other linked isms – anti-semitism and islamism. They are tied into a gordian knot together.
Good point, Fi.
Fed Up, not sure if you’re still reading this. Just asking whether you’re in favour of a caliphate.
Thanks.
Interesting, the lack of response to this specific question. I will ask it again elsewhere, where appropriate.