Zionism is bullshit. Three thousand years ago my Celtic ancestors were casting sacred swords into the lakes of Switzerland. Can I go back and claim Switzerland? No. Of course not. It’s nonsense.
I am rather proud of that critique, which still seems to me a short and elegant refutation of the basis of Zionism. I have never seen it answered with anything approaching intellectual success. I am especially proud as it came to me in a moment of inspiration, in the final 12 seconds of an allocated three minute speech to a crowd that stretched further than I could see.
A Ghanaian came up to me in an Accra hotel yesterday and said “Craig Murray. Zionism is bullshit. I miss London.” He then dashed off. It reminded me what a small and interconnected world we live in, as well as leading me to dig out the reference.
I have another motive in posting it. This blog now has a much larger regular readership than it did a few years ago. In particular, following the referendum campaign, it has a much larger readership in Scotland. Since I returned to Scotland to campaign in the referendum and then decided to stay until we achieve independence, which I am determined will be before I kick the bucket, a number of voices have been raised to query who I am and where I come from, in the wider sense of the latter. Sometimes those voices have been hostile or suspicious. I shall therefore give the odd riffle through the back catalogue. You could of course buy my autobiography Murder in Samarkand, thus helping us to eat.
On the One-Year Anniversary of Israel’s Attack on Gaza: Glenn Greenwald Interviews Max Blumenthal
July 8, 2015
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/08/israel-gaza-anniversary-interview-max-blumenthal/
‘Operation Protective Edge’ is often referred to as a ‘war’ in the corporate media. It was an attack.
Node put this list on the previous thread showing the disparities.
‘Number of tanks:
Israel = 3000+ ; Palestine = 0
Number of armoured personnel carriers:
Israel = 10,484 ; Palestine = 0
Number of artillery pieces:
Israel = 5,432 ; Palestine = 0
Number of nuclear armed submarines:
Israel = 3 ; Palestine = 0
Number of other combat ships:
Israel = 57 ; Palestine = 0
Number of combat-capable aircraft:
Israel = 168 fighters, 227 ground attack fighters, 65 attack aircraft, 86 transport ; Palestine = 0
Number of helicopters:
Israel = 81 attack helicopters, 200 transport ; Palestine = 0
Number of surface-to-air missile launchers:
Israel = 48 SAMS, 920 guns ; Palestine = 0
Number of nuclear warheads:
Israel = 200 ; Palestine = 0’
“Where should they go?
They can go where Armenians, Poles, and Guatamalens go. Other countries in which they can be assimilated. Unless, of course, they are superior in which case their race must remain pure and unadulterated.
Becky, if what you say is true, doesn’t that make claims to ancestral rights to territory even more nonsensical and support Craig’s argument in this thread?
Resident Dissident, if the Jews wanted a homeland, that is up to them but the problems occurred when they picked a region someone already had as their homeland. Of course, the brutality they have shown in trying to remove the indigenous people from that area is what most people find even more offensive, rightly so.
Becky, nationalism is a ridiculous concept and so is the idea of one faith being superior to another.
Monteverdi
“They would in fact have received less persecution and discrimination if they had chosen to live in Britain than Israel .”
The point is that the Jews have been persecuted almost everywhere at different points in time. During WW2, they were rounded up and exterminated in most European countries. There was no certainty that they would survive in Britain. There can be no future guarantee that the Jews will be safe in any European country, including Britain, especially when one considers the demographic certainty of Muslim majority populations emerging across a host of European cities.
Given these circumstances, it is hardly surprising that the Jews sought their own homeland from which to be free from persecution, and to defend it at any cost. There will always be a safe haven for the Jews in Israel should they need it. It is true what you say that Israel is not exactly ‘safe’ in the sense that it is subject to continual terrorist attack and threats to exterminate it, but it is strong and it will continue to exist, no matter how much its enemies wish that it didn’t. Those who accept that Israel exists and will continue to do so can live in peace with the Jews and prosper.
“Further complicated by the fact that you can’t construct a ” homeland ” both in and on what was the ” homeland ” of others .”
Well, to be brutally honest, you can, and they did. Ultimately it is just a thin slither of land in a vast expanse of Muslim-only territory. The concept of a Palestinian homeland is pretty dubious in any case.
Anon1
8 Jul, 2015 – 1:41 pm
“It’s not hard. Your ancestors were not ruthlessly persecuted everywhere they settled, culminating with the genocide of 6 million of their number in the gas chambers within living memory.”
…………………………………………………………………..
As you know Anon1 Zionism, both political and religious, were around long before Hitler so the Holocaust and its Jewish victims are used as an excuse by Zionists for the theft of land after WW2.
“And to defend it at any cost..”
Yes. Ends justify means should be Israel’s mission statement.
“As you know Anon1 Zionism, both political and religious, were around long before Hitler”
So was persecution of the Jews.
Becky Cohen
8 Jul, 2015 – 8:03 pm
“ALL nationalism is bullshit…”
………………………………………………………
You misunderstand Becky or creating a diversion.
The creation of Israel was brought about, not by nationalism but Zionism, which is based on views of religious and racial supremacy.
All that was needed, however, was a “surgical strike” by fighter jets, and that’s that.
Do take this with a huge pinch of salt, the so called “surgical” relied heavily on the collaborators who planted huge explosive charges around the critical parts of the reactor and when the aircraft made an appearance, the said charges were detonated too.
============
The point is that the Jews have been persecuted almost everywhere at different points in time. During WW2, ……… There can be no future guarantee that the Jews will be safe in any European country, including Britain, especially when one considers the demographic certainty of Muslim majority populations emerging across a host of European cities.
….it is hardly surprising that the Jews sought their own homeland from which to be free from persecution, and to defend it at any cost……… threats to exterminate it, but it is strong and it will continue to exist, no matter how much its enemies wish that it didn’t. Those who accept that Israel exists and will continue to do so can live in peace with the Jews and prosper.
….. to be brutally honest, you can, and they did. Ultimately it is just a thin slither of land in a vast expanse of Muslim-only territory. The concept of a Palestinian homeland is pretty dubious in any case.
The synopsis of an incurable psychosis conflated with the racist hatred of Muslims, that concludes in supporting the most barbaric conduct that belies the rationale of the Jewish supremacists; raison d’etre of zionistan.
New York Stock Exchange has reopened. NYSE resumes trading after unprecedented shutdown. They were anxious to reopen before the close of trading at 4 PM. They made it by 50 minutes.
Intriguing use of the dots there, Fedup. Those must have been the parts you didn’t want to hear.
“Racist hatred of Muslims” – is that even possible?
“You misunderstand Becky or creating a diversion.
The creation of Israel was brought about, not by nationalism but Zionism, which is based on views of religious and racial supremacy.”
The founders of Zionism were atheist.
But apart from that a political belief based on views of religious and racial supremacy sounds like a good definition of nationalism.
re RoS 5.45
“Speaking of a people without a country of their own, could the Kurds be placed into such a category?”
The Kurds of KRG (Kurdish Regional Government: capital Erbil) can have their independence tomorrow, if that’s what they want. The Iraqis don’t object. Unfortunately, it has turned out that the Kurdish economy is much dependent on the oil subsidies from Baghdad. Barzani has gone very silent on the issue. He’s no longer demanding independence.
We all had ancestors throwing swords in Switzerland just as we all had ancestors living in Palestine.
As you previously disputed whether Craig had Celtic ancestors I shall take that as an admission of your error, without rubbing in the clear evidence that (a) there were Celts in Morayshire (and pretty well everywhere south of it) and (b) they derived, however they got there, from the La Tene (Switzerland) culture.
Re. Palestine: if my ancestors lived there, then I clearly have a right of return. And so has everyone else, evidently. Let’s do it.
The Kurds of KRG (Kurdish Regional Government: capital Erbil) can have their independence tomorrow, if that’s what they want. The Iraqis don’t object.
But my understanding is that the Turks do object.
Craig, this is BS. The connection between Jews and Jerusalem can be demonstrated over millenia, right through the 15th-16th c AD, without the slightest academic difficulty. Celts and Switzerland, not so much. Sorry.
zionism always was BS, and always will be, really dangerous fascist BS. My heart weeps at the zionist concentration camp Apartheid, and no, I shall not accept to write zionism in large letters, whatever my software may suggest, it does not deserve such grammatic accuracies.
Rogue pirates who exploit German guilt for their past atrocities, by asking for Dolphin class ICBM capable subs need a little of their very own medicine.
Just to remind everyone, look for the 729 bar code when out shopping for peppers, avocados, dates, and much more. The wretched MOD love affair, our military interest in 729 hardware, is as disgusting as the 100 billion price tag on modernising a Trident museums piece, or as cutting corporation tax to the richest company’s in the world. Obscenely disgusting!
@Laguerre
“But not by the Muslims, who welcomed Jews and kept them going. Anti-Semitism historically only existed in Europe, until European Jews came to Palestine and drove out the native inhabitants.”
Not only irrelevant but just not true either
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html
So was persecution of the Jews.
They always had two options:
1. Be conspicuous by your religious practices and very private festivals, while never ceasing to assert that you are the chosen of God. Helps if you do a bit of moneylending too. and demand special concessions from the authorities. Or:
2. Wind your neck in and try to assimilate.
That’s true for an individual: it’s valid for a group.
Zionism has no 2000 year old history, Ruth, you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with Judaism, but is more akin to poorly disguised Apartheid and fascism. Netorai want/have nothing to do with zionists, ask Netorai Karta.
http://www.nkusa.org/
It’s reassuring go know that ‘mericans share so many UK traits that they are typically indistinguishable one from the other. The same percentage of misfits coupled with class bigotry, making the same points ad infinitum to perpetuity. Is human life beneficial for the ecosphere? I dunno. What I do know is that narcissism is like a virus. Humans?
Thank the gods. For now we seem safe.
That source is about as slanted as Stormfront, RD, not that all of it is untrue. However, the Ottoman sultans from Murad II accommodated German, French and Spanish Jews in some quantity. Also:
MEHMED II, THE CONQUEROR (FATIH) Reigned from 1444 to 1446 until his father took over on account of war. He came again to throne in 1451. He conquered Constantinople in 1453. The oppressed Jews were relieved to see him occupy the city. He allowed Jews from today’s Greek Islands and Crete to settle in Istanbul. Fatih’s declaration is as follows: “Listen sons of the Hebrew who live in my country…May all of you who desire come to Constantinople and may the rest of your people find here a shelter”. The Bavarian King Ludwig the III, under the influence of the Italian Monk Jean de Capistrano expelled the Jews out and forced them to settle on the banks of the Danube River, Capistrano helped John Hunyadi in 1456 when the Ottomans besieged Belgrade. In 1410 Jean Huss was excommunicated and burned on order of the pope Alexander the V. The pope Nicholas the V, summoned Jean de Capistrano to go to Slovakia and fight the followers of Jean Huss. Of course Capistrano did not forget the Jews and as a result, by order of the Sultan, a regiment called “The sons of Moses” was formed. Since Capistrano also prepared a crusade against the Ottomans, the same regiment participated in the war which ensued. The doctors Isak Pasa Galeon and Ribbi Sonsino were also appointed to that regiment. Before being killed, Ribbi Sonsino chopped away the head of Jean de Capistrano and the church declared the latter a saint. After the war Mehmed II (Fatih) invited the Ashkenazi Jews of Transylvania and Slovakia to the Ottoman Empire. The synagogues Ahrida, Karaferya, Yanbol and Cuhadji which were damaged due to a fire have been repaired on Fatih’s order. According to a votive foundation document dated 1451-1481, the doctors Moses Hamon, Isak Pas a Galeon, Hekim Yakup, Ephraim Sandji and Hekim Abraham were appointed as palace doctors.
(eg)
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/sultans1.html
“Mes excuses, Monseigneur, but I’ve been at the beach.
But I’m touched that you seem to have missed me.
Shalom!”
So just as I thought, no rebuttal of Craig.
“But my understanding is that the Turks do object.”
____________________________
Lysais, it’s my understanding that the Kurdish people are spread over at least four nations, Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan
In comparison with Israel, will David Cameron do a Arthur Balfour, and pledge, another nation to the Kurds, I think not, infact Westminster didn’t give the Kurds a second thought, until Sadddam started using chemical weapons against them, this allowed the West to demonise a once pro-Western friendly murderous tyrant.
I say B.S. also ( i.e. bad science).
Anyone wanting a truly scholarly analysis of the issue should read this:-
http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/
This report is from a year ago, but, as far as I know, it still represents Turkish policy. Jerusalem Post: Turkey rejects independent Kurdish state, wants Iraq unity government .
Habb, I see you dodged my question at 3.35pm, or have you been enjoying yourself so much on the beach, that you accidently overlooked it, if so, you’re forgiven, though I’d have thought Cleethorpes beach wouldn’t have held so distraction for you, nevertheless remember to put your water wings on when venturing into the sea.
You know how you often get out of your depth.
Baal
There are plenty of other sources identifying pogroms, destruction of synagogues and other persection of Jews in Moslem countries centuries before the creation of Israel – I am afraid one sultan doesn’t make a summer. There were also various rulers in Europe who were tolerant and supportive of Jews but that doesn’t mean that they all were. The Koran (as is also the Bible) can be used to give plenty of support to those wishing to indulge in a bit of hatred of the Jews.
So CB believes that the Jewish People were invented – perhaps he might wish to tell us how they can be uninvented and made to disappear. People really need to recognise that we can only start from where we are – winding the clock back just isn’t a serious option.