Zionism is bullshit. Three thousand years ago my Celtic ancestors were casting sacred swords into the lakes of Switzerland. Can I go back and claim Switzerland? No. Of course not. It’s nonsense.
I am rather proud of that critique, which still seems to me a short and elegant refutation of the basis of Zionism. I have never seen it answered with anything approaching intellectual success. I am especially proud as it came to me in a moment of inspiration, in the final 12 seconds of an allocated three minute speech to a crowd that stretched further than I could see.
A Ghanaian came up to me in an Accra hotel yesterday and said “Craig Murray. Zionism is bullshit. I miss London.” He then dashed off. It reminded me what a small and interconnected world we live in, as well as leading me to dig out the reference.
I have another motive in posting it. This blog now has a much larger regular readership than it did a few years ago. In particular, following the referendum campaign, it has a much larger readership in Scotland. Since I returned to Scotland to campaign in the referendum and then decided to stay until we achieve independence, which I am determined will be before I kick the bucket, a number of voices have been raised to query who I am and where I come from, in the wider sense of the latter. Sometimes those voices have been hostile or suspicious. I shall therefore give the odd riffle through the back catalogue. You could of course buy my autobiography Murder in Samarkand, thus helping us to eat.
I agree with Desmond Tutu. I have communicated, through work, with Desmond Tutu and he is a lovely and helpful man.
Are you able to answer my four very simple questions, Fed Up? Thank you very much for your time.
“ideology is based on logic and reasoning, hence automatically excluding zionism”
My view is that Zionism employs the very same reasoning and tactics as elites going way back.
Current implementation is much more sophisticated of course.
My concern isn’t with their logic and reasoning. It’s with their lack of love and humanity.
Here again are my four points, re-phrased into very simple questions.
This is taking a turn for comedy now!
English comprehension jumps into mind.
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Dunno why you guys are so down on him. Seems pretty clued in, in terms of analysis.
Thanks Herbie, this is a long story and the stereo typing that goes a long way back. In fact the very early comments of mine on this blog were greeted by SS as the reincarnation of some ghost past whom was a nasty bit of work; ie antisemitic, etc.
SS liked to play that game and Jon the mod those days kept feeding these operatives to play their silly little games.
As you can see the in your face sophistry.
I knew of course that there was a bit of background.
Never really understood what it was about.
Can you explain the problem with Suhayl’s questions. They seem innocent enough to me.
You’re suggesting that they’re a discursive tactic to some purpose?
What purpose is that?
My concern isn’t with their logic and reasoning. It’s with their lack of love and humanity.
The founder of zionism to begin with intended to convert all the Jews into catholics, he then decided its best to set up zionistan.
Jablonsky the collaborator with the Nazi was parading his betar (youth group) groups along with the Nazi youth whilst his betar had an early version of the zionistan flag, ie a minora imprinted on a tallit ( shawl)! However he then became the champion of the current zionist operatives; a poster boy if you will.
The roots of this supremacist claptrap are set in emotions, fears, and unlogic. This in turn has made acceptable the many vices of the Western governments, who are using the Petri dish of the Mid East to explore various outcomes given the precursors introduced.
This is not an isolated, or localised event, as you have already gone on record; “reasoning and tactics as elites going way back.”. The existence of such vile precepts makes possible even more extreme and vile outcomes elsewhere. Hence eradicating this supremacist claptrap sets the course to curb other offenders and would be offenders conduct too.
What purpose is that?
Diverting from the issue; zionism is bullshit!
Herbie, I’ve nothing against Fedup; Fedup seems to have something against Suhayl, but so far hasn’t said what.
I think that the problems in the world are caused by interactions between power structures and aspects of human nature. Power structures among humans will arise spontaneously, and those which do will promote dominance and oppression; that’s just the effect of the dominance aspect of human nature playing itself out.
In some limited domains humans have devised and constructed other power structures that have some success in restraining such natural dominance power structures. Within these domains conditions for the majority are somewhat better, but there is still much room for improvement.
I disbelieve that there are just some bad people somewhere, and that if they can be disempowered then everything will be fine.
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956
Craig’s statement was correct but incomplete. Zionism is one of many bullshits. Such bullshits tend to support each other. But then they would, wouldn’t they?
Zionism today just looks like imperialism to me, after an earlier period bringing the diaspora together through nationalism.
But yeah. Imperialism is supremacist.
Elites believe that they are the best. Elite powers believe that they have a right and indeed a duty to rule over those less successful.
They believe that it’s god’s will that the best of humanity should triumph in the end.
Simple imperialism.
Read nearly any Literature from C19 Europe. It’s all there. No need for Zionism specifically.
Imperialism is bullshit!
That’s the second time that’s happened Clark, in the past few days.
Both of us posting the same idea at the same time.
Spookie, eh.
It’s a real a pity King Adbullah’s offer in around 200-something was not taken up. And it’s a shame – in both senses of the word – that Israel has continued building settlements in the West Bank.
Suhayl- I agree with these sentiments. They also illuminate the second reason I gave to Habba for my pessimism about the Palestinian predicament when compared to the NI conflict, namely, the utterly one sided stance taken by the US in recent decades. You’d have thought that when the US’s no 2 client in the middle east (Saudi) tables a reasonable peace plan, the US would apply some pressure on its no 1 client (Israel)to give this proposal reasonable consideration. Instead, when Israel loftily dismissed the Saudi plan, the US meekly accepted their refusal to engage, and has subsequently developed a convenient amnesia about both the plan, and the favourable response it received from other Arab nations .
“You’d have thought that when the US’s no 2 client in the middle east (Saudi) tables a reasonable peace plan, the US would apply some pressure on its no 1 client (Israel)to give this proposal reasonable consideration.”
Why wasn’t the House of Saud just buying up US lawmakers from 1971 on.
They’d a head start on the Israelis, in terms of dosh.
Self proclaimed “ardent Zionist” Donald Trump has done a deal with the Murdoch devil. Fox News are promoting him as the only one who will say what needs to be said, an American needs who ain’t afraid to be un-PC.
If you haven’t got half an hour for the video, here’s my synopsis:
“Mr Trump, we’ve just played a long video clip of you being racist about Mexicans. Now here are some statistics about murdering drug-dealing rapist Mexicans to encourage you to repeat your racism. Thank you. Now after the break we’ll speak to two sets of parents whose children were killed by illegal Mexican immigrants.”
http://investmentwatchblog.com/watch-fired-up-trump-shows-exactly-why-hes-burning-down-the-2016-gop-field/
Herbie, it’s good when that happens.
Oldmark, the Saudi plan was unpopular with the Israeli electorate, probably due to prejudice, at a guess. We’re all familiar with the effect; the boss who rejects a good idea out-of-hand because it wasn’t his proposal. You have to smuggle good ideas in by a back door and pretend you don’t know where they came from; let the boss take the credit.
Old Mark and Clark – yes, I agree, thanks.
Well, Fed Up, are you able to answer my four very simple questions? Let us reduce them to three, since without intending to do so, I think one can agree that you have answered the first one. Here they are, then:
Are you:
1) Against Israeli settlements in the West Bank?
2) Against the blockage and bombing of Gaza?
3) For the creation of an independent Palestinian state (either in a one or two-state solution)?
‘Yes’ or ‘No’ answers would be fine. Thank you for your time and effort. It is very much appreciated.
Suhayl Saadi
i’ve never Seen Fed up against those points.. you two are a wee bit cross lined. Or BIG time …. It looks more on your side Suhayl…
i can’t stand it ..off to the Highlands…. For peace Pic nick..last weeks was Rained oot and Midgie Destroyed…Until the after party
Peace Peace Peace Peace Peace
The people of the Earth Don’t Want More Wars.
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/07/09/hawkish-senator-peace-activist-you-make-world-incredibly-dangerous
“Zionism today just looks like imperialism to me…”
Herzl himself recognized that the purpose of the new Jewish state was to be part of the system of colonial domination of the rest of the world. Ralph Schoenman in his book ‘The Hidden History of Zionism’, points out that having chosen Palestine, the Zionist movement attempted to persuade one of the imperialist powers to give them support in colonizing it. Initially, Turkey and Germany were approached.
Native Americans Don’t Know What The Fuck This Zionist Crap is…. GET THE FUCK REAL…OR TRY… It comes doon… TO GOOD OR EVIL.. Fuck the Establishment…. Am gonna Keep Making Dream Catchers
Just to say In case of Misstooks…. I wear EVERY Day a Palestine Band
Morning BrianFujisan, and thanks for your points. I wish you a great picnic and lets hope the insects will be less troublesome than last week.
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Clark you have every right to your views, however that does not mean that these views are correct. To any impartial reader, the repeated interrogative questions of SS would be a moot and waste of electron effort. However, he keeps insisting on the same questions, a technique which is used to portray the opponent in a negative way. As the content of “questions” indicate SS must not have comprehended a single line of my comments to formulate those questions. Or he is just low balling to portray me in a negative light to those whom have a cursory read of the thread.
I must admit, I am of the Rab C. Nesbitt persuasion; I have been made to look bad, by bigger and better opponents than SS. Hence my not rising to the bate. Fact is as you have quoted Solzhenitsyn good and evil are present in each instance, and it is almost a binary choice (far too simplified) between doing good or doing bad. Further, as Solzhenitsyn mistakenly points out; it is not easy to cut off bits of one’s heart!
Human beings are programmable creatures, in fact everything we learn are based on the program loop of seek to do better. This doing better could be directed in doing evil, or doing good. However, as evil is reprehensible and immoral, the next more evil act is to deflect the evil acts committed and pin it on the next pilgrim along. The little kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar blames the dog for eating all the cookies, and the this is made more elaborate as these kids grow up to blame others.
The seeds of racism are assiduously being sown as Node has brought to our attention. The evil of zionism goes beyond the ordinary and mundane evil, as it explores even greater depths of the abyss of evil. To portray the Mexicans as murdering rapists hoards at the gate, is to promote racism through an alternative and indirect route. Today Mexicans, and then later on others. It is not just a question of the plight of Palestinians, that ought to be under scrutiny. The world wide conduct of zionists and their efforts in promotion of racism, oppression and murder ought to be carefully monitored.
Apparently the best place to train our police is to send them to zionistian, if you recollect the same was true of the South Africa! Desensitizing the susceptible individual police officers and teaching these the supremacists way of thinking is an export that is taking place now. This is just one nasty little development, then there are the politicians and the so called friends of zionistan. The case of pervert kiddie fiddler Lord janner should not be forgotten that despite being in charge of many zionist clubs and groups he was kept in place and has not been subject to any kind of justice.
Fact is world must deal and eradicate an evil at a times, and zionism is one manifest evil that ought to be tackled head on, as soon as possible, before it literally destroys the world.
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Why wasn’t the House of Saud just buying up US lawmakers from 1971 on.
Herbie a very good question. Could the underlying reason point to the fact that without the zionist atrocities, al Saud would have had a tough time to explain away their own treatment of women and the Shia’ minorities, etc? It pays for the zionists to slaughter and incarcerate the nation of Palestine, as the world’s eyes are fixed on that misery, other miseries will go unnoticed.
Suhayl
Our Transatlantic Sage – again seeking t have the last word – replied to you thus:
“I believe polls allegedly showing how happy the Israeli Palestinians are with their lot as little as I would have believed polls showing how happy (allegedly) blacks in the Jim Crow South were with their lot. I can’t say that I remember such polls, but I certainly do remember defenders of segregation claiming that the blacks were happy with their lot.
Seems to me from the evidence that the lot of Palestinians in Israel (look at the articles I have cited) is worse than that of blacks in the Jim Crow South. We have the testimony of Archbishop Tutu, who ought to know, that the lot of Palestinians in Israel is worse than that of blacks in apartheid South Africa.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have already ably dismissed his claim about Archbishop Tutu by showing that Tutu was not talking about the Palestinian Israelis in Israel proper. Well done.
I in turn would point out that our Transatlantic Sage has also misrepresented what you originally wrote, which was:
“In repeated polls, most of these people have stated that they do not wnat to be part of any other state than Israel and specifically that they do not want to be part of a (free, unoccupied) Palestinian state”
Our Transatlantic Friend, however, attempts to give the impression that the polls you mentioned were asking Palestinian Israelis if they were “happy with their lot”.
Not the same thing at all, I think you’ll agree.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Conclusion : our Transatlantic Friend is a twister who misrepresented both what you and Archbishop Tutu said.
Suhayl
““In repeated polls, most of these people have stated that they do not wnat to be part of any other state than Israel”
___________________
One of the reasons why I believe those polls you cite is that the Palestinian Israelis are sitting tight and showing no signs of wishing to move to any other Arab state, whether neighbouring or further afield.
I have said this myself on several occasions and no one has contested this observation.
The reason for this is certainly that when they look at the “brother” Arab states they shudder and think they are a damn sight better off where they are. They have democratic rights in Israel, they are materially better off in Israel than they would be in any Aran state and, last but not least, they are unlikely to be butchered by Sunnis for being shia or vice versa.
PS – always good to hear from yo!. It is refreshing to read a sane (and honest) commenter.
Suhayl being supported by a Zionist supporter says it all.
What does a British doctor think about fellow professionals in Israel colluding in torture?
Force-feeding within the wider spectrum of torture and complicity in Israeli jails
07 June 2014
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/11941-force-feeding-within-the-wider-spectrum-of-torture-and-complicity-in-israeli-jails
Israeli doctors colluding in torture of Palestinian detainees
Jonathan Cook
30 June 2009
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-doctors-colluding-torture-palestinian-detainees/8321
The campaign about doctors and torture in Israel five years on
BMJ 2014; 349
http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.g4386 (Published 09 July 2014) http://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4386
NB I did not use the T word above I did not want my comment to be deleted!
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More power to your elbows, Fedup, Herbie, Daniel, Node and Brian and others who feel for our brothers and sisters in Palestine in their torment.
Women under 30 and men under 50 were prevented from attending Al Aqsa on Friday by the IOF. Herded at a checkpoint like cattle.
https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=766430
Thanks, Habbabkuk.
I have attempted to view Craig’s original post as a starting-point for discussion rather than a slogan to which to chorus. It’s interesting that through the entire thread, I have repeatedly stated – and re-stated – my own answers to the four questions I posed Fed Up and yet that does not seem to alter the vitriolic attacks that any attempt to open up discussion of this subject invites.
Thisis not the College of the Thought Police or an indocrination camp for political deviants. It is the political blog of a whistleblower. It is non-conformist.
I have invited Fed Up to state their views openly on some very basic points to do with the subject, yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. Yet again, for asking these questions, for providing some information about Muslim/Arab Israelis (who do exist, are people living in the centre of “Zionistan” and whose position merits some thought) and for suggesting the complexity of the subject, I am referred to disparagingly as, “SS”. I would point out that “SS” is an acronym used first and most commonly by Alfred Burdett(Can Speccy), who espouses race theory. I am not the blackshirt here.
Basically, let’s not dance around the real issue here with Fed Up. The real issue with Fed Up and those of similar persuasion has nothing to do with Palestine/Israel. Palestine-Israel is viewed as a side-show. While it seems obvious that Palestine-Israel is about land and human rights, the obvious is rejected and instead it is viewed as an apocalyptic, metaphysical struggle. Globally, everything is distilled into a simple narrative and the central focus of the narrative is… same-old, same-old.
The underlying dynamic here wrt Fed Up and so on is that I – and by extension people like me – will not support supremacism of any sort – whether it’s white supremcism, Zionism, Arab supremacism, or religious supremacism. There are many people who have bought into one or other of these supremacist ideologies. They have swallowed the ideologies whole, to the extent that any questioning of the premises of the ideologies, or any attempt to explore the complexities of political matters, or even recognition of the fact that people everywhere hold differing views and do not necessarily conform to an expected stereotype, brings forth an aggressive response. This, to me, suggests the vacuity and fragility of all forms of supremacist thinking. It is a house of cards. Or, as Clark suggests, there are many forms of “bullshit”.
And so, finally, I would like to distill all of my very simple questions into one, key question not to do with me, but to do with the subject at hand, and addressed to Fed Up:
Do you support the creation of a Palestinian state (either a one or two-state solution)?
Mary, again, I am the enemy. Destroy me, and all the world’s problems will be resolved.
again, I am the enemy. Destroy me, and all the world’s problems will be resolved.
Clark why the personal angle? There is an almost solipsist preoccupation running through some of your comments, curious as to why?
In the fashion of SS I will address the issues through a third party too! (I don’t want to be uncharitable, all the same I am laughing along as I read the latest).
There seems to be a pretty glaring inner struggle that is reflected in apportioning ” supremacy” to all and sundry, then dismissing others as “same old, same old”, all the while reasserting the “non conformist” (now this is a wholly subjective affair as to which standard the conformity is formed around) blog, in a thread that is conforming to the zeitgeist as the praising zionist keyboard warrior goes on record to support SS.
There is a nice phrase; “RTFM” which with little modification can be applied to the current situation; “RTFC” (read the effing comments).
will elaborate later.
Are you able to answer my very simple question, Fed Up? It is surely the most important, and central, question in relation to Palestine-Israel. Here it is again. I am sorry to be asking it again and again. If you provide an answer, I will stop asking it. I think it is a valid question. I am not sure why you might have difficulty providing an answer. It surely would be either, ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.
Do you support the creation of a Palestinian state (either a one or two-state solution)?
Here is an interesting figure: Ahmed Tibi, an advisor to Yasser Arafat and a Member of the Israeli Knesset.
“Tibi is an Anti-Zionist. He supports an Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders and a two-state solution, with a Palestinian state established alongside Israel. He also opposes Israel’s character as a Jewish state, claiming that its self-definition as Jewish is racist, and favors Israel becoming a “state of all its citizens”. Accordingly, he supports removing icons that represent the special status of the Jewish majority, including the Law of Return, the flag, and the national anthem. He opposes the recruitment of Arab citizens of Israel into the IDF. Tibi also supports the Palestinian right of return, calling it a prerequisite for reconciliation, but has stated that he believes only a small percentage of Palestinian refugees would actually choose to move to Israel.[8]
Controversies[edit]Tibi continues to be considered controversial in the Israeli politics mainly due to his wide relations with Palestinian and Arab parties and his speeches in the Knesset. However, Tibi is also known for having pronounced a moving speech to commemorate Holocaust Day in 2010 at the Israeli Knesset. Yair Lapid reported on Israel’s Channel 2: “Knesset elders claim that it might have been the best speech ever given in the Israeli Parliament”.[9]” [from article below]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Tibi
I provide this information in attempt to illustrate the complexity of the situation and also to suggest that it is possible for a solution to be found, if there is the will to do so. I think Israel and the USA lack to will to do so. Tibi is an anti-Zionist, so like Craig he thinks that “Zionism is bullshit”. No doubt some of the commentators here reflexively would condemn Tibi and indeed would condemn the 1.2 million Muslim/Arab Israelis. By 2025, 1 in 4 Israelis will be Arab (most of those will be Muslim, some Christian; I am not including the Jewish Arabs who moved to Israel from Arab countries). This is a demographic reality. So when people talk about “obliterating israel”, they are talking about obliterating 1.2 million Arab Israelis.
There are many different political positions among Arabs/Muslims/Jews/others within both Israel and Palestine which lie between that of Ahmed Tibi and the various opposing poles. Overwhlemingly, Palestinians want a solution that delivers self-determination, land and human rights. This would be a political solution. They are not interested in self-aggrandising ideological posturing, or apocalyptic pronouncements, from self-righteous people in the West, neither of which has ever done them one iota of good.