The Labour Party is being remarkably coy about releasing the actual result of its Scottish accounting unit leadership election, giving only a percentage. The entirely complacent unionist media is complicit in what amounts to a deception. The stunning truth is that in a one person, one vote election among the entire membership of the Labour Party in Scotland plus trades union supporters, Dugdale won with 5,217 votes (out of a claimed electorate of 21,000, many of whom do not exist or could not be arsed to choose between two right wing numpties).
UPDATE: A second Labour figure just rang me to assure me my information – which was from a good source – is wrong. She would not give the actual figure and only said it was “higher”. I offered to take down the post and publish an accurate figure if she would give it, but this was declined.
“Thus far Georgia (invaded) and Crimea (handed itself over)”
To be fair, the South Ossetians handed themselves over too.
Georgia under mad bad Sackawilly, invaded them. He’s now buggering up Ukraine.
When he’s not chewing his tie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ02MlVRcMA
Could be completely nuts.
Don’t waste your time Macky. I see one of those one liners has been directed at you today rather than at me.
You must know it is the silly season and only Ba’al is competent to comment here – at length and in quantity it should be said! He has been given the Habbabkuk seal of approval after all.
‘Habbabkuk (la vita e’ bella)
19 Aug, 2015 – 5:07 pm
Herbie
I note with some pleasure and amusement that you (and also Macky and MJ) seem to have got your come-uppance from Ba’al Zevul this afternoon.
For the future, I’d advise you not to tangle with Ba’al – just replying with insults like you do to me is a lot safer when you’re dealing with people in a much higher league.’
LOL
Thus far Georgia (invaded) and Crimea (coerced). Abkhazia (occupied), S. Ossetia (integrated)…and Moldova (subverted, though not without our ineptitude)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/world/europe/moldova-eyes-russias-embrace-as-flirtation-with-europe-fades.html?_r=0
Yours (fixed)
Capitalism within a mixed economy would be much better than the financialised banking nonsense we’re currently enduring.
Popular too, as we can see from the Corbyn campaign.
Popular in Western Europe as well.
Wow. Thanks, Hab. Nice of you. Happy to make it clear that whatever our differences, I agree with you on this one.
It would appear, Mary that not only the four Moscow fans I (alone) have been exchanging thoughts with today and yesterday, but you too, are allowed to comment here, and have done so. Frequently, often irrelevantly to anything under discussion (is that intentional, I wonder?), and managing to avoid giving the impression that you have understood any given issue.
Do you have a view on Putin? Is he a cuddly bunny, who must be allowed at all costs to ignore international treaties or revoke them unilaterally at will? Do tell.
Capitalism within a mixed economy would be much better than the financialised banking nonsense we’re currently enduring.
That’s with or without megacorporations?
There used to be this Anti-Trust idea in the US.
The UK had a Monopoly and Mergers Commission.
Probably considered socialist nonsense these days.
“Thus far Georgia (invaded) and Crimea (coerced). Abkhazia (occupied), S. Ossetia (integrated)…and Moldova (subverted, though not without our ineptitude”
Such meagre pickings for rabid dogs with global ambitions. They must be getting impatient with Putin. They must want some real action very soon. Iran surely.
How many Crimeans do you seriously think wanted to stay in Ukraine? How many really wanted to be persecuted for speaking Russian, have their war memorials trashed their pension funds plundered?
“The tag team is missing Macky and Goss.”
Can’t speak for Macky but I thought the others were keeping you in control. By the way, where’s your team today? 🙂
There used to be this Anti-Trust idea in the US.
The UK had a Monopoly and Mergers Commission.
Probably considered socialist nonsense these days. (Herbie)
I too regret their passing. But that is not what Putin has in mind (see my earlier link). Any monopolies commission in Russia would be in the – possibly fatal – position of having to impeach the President, as he has the controlling interest.
I agree that the real power behind Putin probably comes from the oil oligarchs. So far Putin has delivered them Georgia and Crimea, which might not seem much to pack of mad dogs with global ambitions. An obvious target with real mineral rewards (and not too far away) would be Iran. It would be a start at least but they’d better get their skates on if they don’t want to get beaten to it. (MJ)
It’s not just the oil oligarchs, and there is no real ‘power behind Putin’, although he rules with their complicity, if they are wise, and with their assets, if they are not.
Iran, yes. The Great Game has returned with a vengeance, and I’m quite sure Russia would like a bigger entry there. But don’t write off the Central Asian republics, which have both mineral and energy resources in abundance, are FSU, bent as a three-pound note and much easier to get at.
I still think Putin has to grow and diversify his economy, once normal trading resumes.
That in itself will force him to adopt the kind of policies we had in the post war period.
Doubt Iran is in their sights, though those S-300s are taking their time.
Would frighten China.
My team? What team? I can’t think of a person here with whom I do not disagree on at least one topic. Which maybe creates a small difficulty for you. I do not hold the standard radical-left-approved set of opinions. Disliking Israel and Blair does not blind me to my own country’s national interest. Criticism of the US does not automatically require me to support any foreign dictator opposing it. And I think it is fair to oppose globalised megacorporate capitalism, whether it is the Western or the Russian variant. I posted earlier endorsing something Suhayl said.
Which was:
(Herbie, among others -BZ) seem interested only in singing in monodic concert, reinforcing pre-existing beliefs which brook no possibility of development or expansion. I suspect the reason they attempt to discredit others as “trolls” and “gatekeepers” is because at some level, the points some of those others make disturb their equanimity and so cannot be tolerated.
I’ll leave it there for now.
They must be getting impatient with Putin. Not a wise attitude, as several oligarchs could tell you. The ones that are still alive, that is.
That’s a bit rich, Ba’al.
You’ve been quoting the same tired old propaganda articles.
I’ve been dealing with what is in fact a trade war.
Your propaganda is there merely to support US/UK objectives in that war. It’s not the thing in itself. The propaganda is not what’s its about.
Quoting the same tired old propaganda certainly does
“brook no possibility of development or expansion”
I mentioned the other day that the bombing of Sartana and murder of its residents could have been a false flag when the pro-fascists on this blog were trying to blame Eastern Ukraine. Some of the residents of that town seem to think so too.
http://russia-insider.com/en/shells-hit-ukraine-controlled-town-residents-cry-false-flag/ri9306?
Perhaps the reason for it has something to do with the massive build up of Kiev troops along the borders of the self-declared republics. Russia is getting impatient. It has done nothing up to now but attempt to broker a peace-deal for the poor people of the republics to get on with their lives. Russia has been very patient in the face of these Nazi attacks. And still is. If suddenly they decide enough is enough I cannot see the conflict lasting long. That is, unless it escalates with other countries joining in. Then, Resident Dissident and all the supporters of the coup fascists, will be happy, as RD was with Blair’s war in Iraq.
http://nsnbc.me/2015/08/21/moscow-warns-kiev-against-military-solution-in-ukraine/
“Not a wise attitude, as several oligarchs could tell you. The ones that are still alive, that is”
OK, so it’s Putin (the Tsar anointed by God) and not the oligarchs (rabid dogs with global ambitions) who’s running the show after all. What’s he up to then? What’s his game?
Some people just want to build up a sober, fact-based picture of what’s really going on.
Hi Fedup, Suhayl, Macky, and all
I think I saw at some point I was called an “empath” here, which normally I would take as a compliment! If it is not meant as such, then I am happy to hear further explanation. Nevertheless, analysing the dynamics of these discussions themselves, as people seem to be doing already, is most interesting. I too appreciate these interactions, and think it is useful for the Left to be able to discuss differences of opinion on a collegiate and broad-tent basis.
Macky, I’ll respond to this first:
Has anything been said by Ba’al Zevul or Suhayl that specifically indicates that they are not of the view that Israel is creating a de-facto apartheid divide? For what it is worth, whilst I am of the opinion that the Middle East crisis is not simple to dissect, and there are a lot of factors to take into account when proposing solutions, I would nevertheless agree with this characterisation. I think the State of Israel is a racist construction.
Now, to Fedup in particular, in connection with the conversation between him and Suhayl, I am at a loss to see why Suhayl has been denounced in such hostile terms. He had asked a question about the creation of a Caliphate, and after much prompting, Fedup finally agreed that he was not in favour of such a thing. Was the problem here the disconnect between being opposed to Islamophobia while strenuously avoiding the cognitive dissonance of the cruelty of Islamic religious extremism? I think the Left should (and can) answer these questions, without feeling the need to abandon the broad Left in the vein of Nick Cohen and David Aaronovitch etc.
This mode of interaction brings to mind two conversations, one of which occured on this very blog (either involving Fedup or Passerby, I am happy to be corrected). I think it is relevant, and I trust it is not regarded as simply digging up the past; I think we can learn from discursive techniques amongst ourselves, and I believe it is important that we try to do so.
Some years ago I was very keen to ask people, in regard to Israel/Palestine, how they would go about a peace accord, if they were appointed as a neutral and respected chief negotiator. I still think it is an extremely valuable thought experiment (and if anyone wishes to answer this separately here, be my guest! I will be very interested to read their answer, and I will also give mine if anyone would like that). After much prevarication, my interlocutor said that, on the basis of the uneven death toll in the Middle East (which runs roughly at a hundred Palestinian lives for every one Israeli), the ratio should be evened out. By this it was meant that, in the interests of fairness, thousands of Israelis should be put to death in some fashion, presumably by the state or a global power.
Now, I would strongly disagree with this approach in several respects, but where this forms the basis of someone’s view, I think it is important that they state it openly. If someone takes this view, then at some point they will need to discuss it with someone else, in order to have a chance of bringing it about. Of course, in this case, the “solution” is so appalling – reminiscent of a fascism that the Jewish people have already suffered – that there is no wonder it must be concealed under a bushel.
I have seen this dilemma before, between members of the SWP and Communist Party members in the UK. The SWP, despite my doubts about them, have often developed a decent Left platform that I have a lot of time for, and the Communists in contrast seem to stick to rigid policy positions that fail to deliver justice in practice. The SWP position on the UK armed forces, for example, is that British working-class soldiers are victims of capitalism too, but the Communist response – in a Stop the War meeting I attended – was that NATO soldiers deserved to perish for their collaboration with imperialism.
By coincidence I saw the same Communist at a large public meeting some weeks later, at which there were representatives of Military Families Against The War. One of their speakers had lost a son to the invasion of Iraq, and the Communist stood up, and tried to make his same points again – in effect telling a man in public that his son had fully +deserved+ to die in combat. It was, in the event, obfuscated by so much euphemism and embarrassment that, thankfully, the hall did not understand him, and he sat down frustrated.
Thus, if there is something to learn here – and there are probably several things – perhaps it can be said that there is no point in guarding our opinions fiercely, lest they disintegrate, vampire-like, when brought into the light. The Communist was dreadfully wrong on this point, but he did not completely discover this. I would build upon my point here by saying that “the Left” on this board will disagree on plenty of things, but that most of us agree on most things most of the time. In order words, I am advocating we do not split into factions, and that we answer questions that are posed honestly.
Of course, there are occasions where people may elect not to answer questions, and that is fine too. Of course, people are then free to draw their own conclusions about an unwillingness to answer, as per Habbabkuk’s response to my recent questions about media bias.
I’ve been trying to consider some related themes in relation to my own internal discourse, and in particular with how I reveal my untempered opinions on a topic in a public forum – such as here – which might “discredit” me if I make an error of fact or logic. In fact, I have taken the opposite conclusion – it is useful to expose unfinished ideas to praise or ridicule, and that my generally Left perspectives do not in some way fall apart if I happen to put a foot wrong.
As a brief example of this vulnerability, I have been for a while interested in a Left-wing analysis of the politics of the Jewish global diaspora. One of my observations is that, understandably, persecution and isolation has become part of the Jewish identity, and the paradox of the Holocaust is that it has deepened this mode of self-analysis. In combination with a fierce drive that is determined to ensure the Jewish people never suffer such a purge again, the community has become inward-looking and internally collaborative, sometimes favouring Jewish people over non-Jewish people for important positions. Now, whilst I think this behaviour could be explained by human psychology – and thus is not in itself evil – the theory is reminiscent of the ideology of the “Jewish cabal” that controls the world. I may therefore be putting myself at risk of the charge of anti-Jewish racism.
Nevertheless, I think it’s important to treat these topics scientifically – a thesis is put forward, and is subject to rigorous review by ones peers. The alternative is that we place our thoughts in a box, and they fail to develop or change, and we’ve learned nothing. So, let’s out into the light, both left and right!
Jon
21/08/2015 3:25pm
Re: “empath”
I noticed that. I can’t remember the context now, but I had an idea the writer meant “psychopath” or “sociopath” (sorry!)
Jon, just a friendly comment: your postings are awfully long. I don’t know about others, but although they are generally very thoughtful and intelligible, I must confess to a slight sinking feeling when faced with one.
It’s up to you, of course: but I surmise that many more people would read your posts if they were half the length.
Kind regards,
John
Chomsky argues that calling Israel an Apartheid state is a gift to Israel.
He says it’s much worse than that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czD70xq9blw
John SD,
I appreciate your point about the length of my posts. I agree, to some degree, though I tend to find it hard to express the nuanced position I am aiming for inside a word limit. Perhaps that is related to my view, expressed above also, that I don’t think politics is simply either Left or Right, in the faction or out of it, etc.
Nevertheless, I shall try putting my posts on a diet!
“Doubt Iran is in their sights”
Agree. I think Russia sees Iran as a long-term ally and a country that will eventually join the Brics and become part of the new global financial system. Just look at the resources those countries can muster – without having to invade, coerce or occupy anyone! Scary. Can I join please?
“Just look at the resources those countries can muster – without having to invade, coerce or occupy anyone! Scary.”
Indeed. All they need do is trade, to become very very wealthy.
A rather different model to that preferred by the US and UK.
If they can build their pipelines and silk roads across Eurasia then they’ll avoid becoming victim to US sea power.
That’s what the US and UK really fear.
“I tend to find it hard to express the nuanced position I am aiming for inside a word limit”
Jon: I find that I just scroll past posts that are very long. I’m unlikely to see any nuanced positions if they don’t appear in the first paragraph. And if there are no paragraphs forget it.
I remember that term “empath”.
I doubt the writer was thinking “psychopath” or “sociopath”. Bit of a stretch that.
More likely derived from “empathy”.
No?
MJ, thanks.
Herbie, yes, that would be the normal understanding.
If anyone imagines that some of the ‘natter’ on here, much of it copious, will change anything, then they are mistaken.
The effect of the global war on terror and the now inevitable increase in global warming will lead to a massive movement of people northwards from the African continent to Europe seeking food, water and shelter.
No good going to America. That’s burning. Or China with its economy collapsing. 8m Chinese young graduate annually from university. Where are their jobs?
North and South Korea are banging war drums and the Luceriferans in Israel with their matches and gunpowder, so to speak, are ready to send us all to our ends.
It cannot go on. Does anyone else share my sense of foreboding?
Herbie
21/08/2015 4:01pm
Maybe I am thinking of the wrong posting. I thought it was mixed up in a good deal of vehement criticism, in which “empath” stood out like a sore thumb. “Empath” is usually a rather nice thing to be called.
Sigh. I guess I’ll have to find it.
Kind regards,
John
Chris Hedges is certainly with you, Mary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA41ggsdeXE
Meanwhile another country the Yanks partitioned has potential to flare up into war.
http://english.cri.cn/12394/2015/08/21/4021s892536.htm
“Mr Goss instead of making a list of “traitors names” don’t you think that such occasions could be used as a healing and peace process?”
I hope nobody on here thinks I’m making a list of traitors’ names. 🙂
“Yes it would be a much more productive initiative. My only problem with the idea is the difficulty in selling it to Kiev, who I presume are making the traitor list. Some of them may have relatives in Crimea. Others may recall holidays they had there as youngsters, before Ukraine became another failed state. I just hope that Merkel and Hollande can drum some sense into the great tub of chocolate lard.”
__________________
John Goss, sorry to hear aboug your internet connection getting chopped by a workie.
I didn’t aim the traitors list at you it was in the accompanying article, pity the Ukrainians can’t see other Ukrainians holidaying in the Crimea, as a chance to strengthen old bonds again.
It’s a pity the Western puppet Petro Poroshenko can’t call the shots and begin the healing process, Ukrainians in the Crimea enjoying their breaks would’ve been an ideal place to start.
Of course it takes two to tango, and Putin would also need to extend the hand of friendship.