Exactly twenty years ago the European Court of Human Rights found that the British Government had acted illegally in shooting dead three IRA members in Gibraltar, even though the court accepted that the government had a genuine belief that they were planning a bombing attack. Indeed the court accepted the victims were terrorists, and refused compensation to their families on those grounds. But the court refused to accept there was no possibility of foiling the plot through methods other than summary execution.
In the light of the decision that Operation Flavius contravened Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, it is difficult to understand how the government can claim its killing of British men in Syria, with no trial, is anything other than murder. I personally find it difficult to imagine technically how men journeying in a car in Syria were imminently able to instantly wreak havoc in the UK so that it was impossible to prevent by any method other than their execution without trial. The level of certainty required for that decision would involve sufficient knowledge of what was to happen in the UK to stop it here. If there was vagueness about what was actually to happen in the UK, there cannot have been the certainty about the threat claimed. It is a logical impasse.
Frankly in twenty years of experience working with British security services their level of accuracy (remember Iraqi WMD) was never that good. And everybody is fortunately now deeply sceptical about the continual claims by the security services that there are thousands of dedicated Islamic terrorists in the UK conducting hundreds of plots every year, and yet miraculously never actually managing to kill anybody.
Just in case anybody had not worked out yet that the Guardian is a disgraceful neo-con rag, it has an article by its “legal correspondent” Joshua Rozenberg, married to the even more rabid Zionist militarist Melanie Phillips (who still believes the Iraqi WMD exist, hidden in the bed of the Euphrates). Rozenberg assures us it is absolutely legal for the British government to kill us without trial if it wants. He even suggests the murdered Mr Khan would not object:
“If he was waging war on British troops and civilians, he can hardly complain the UK’s armed forces were one step ahead of him.”
Astonishingly for a lawyer, the disgraceful Rozenberg does not seem to notice that the opening “if” is rather important. “If Mr Jones was engaged in insurance fraud, he can hardly complain at being banged up for twenty years”, so according to Mr Rozenberg we can dispense with all that nonsense about trials and evidence and just take the government’s word for it. Not to mention that the government has now instituted summary execution without trial in a country that does not even have the death penalty.
As I have argued, it is not unusual for British people to go to fight abroad. There were British citizens in the Israeli Defence Forces participating in the massacre of Palestinian civilians in Gaza last year. Our neo-con governments of both blue and red Tories have positively encouraged the mercenary companies Executive Outcomes/Sandline/Aegis of Tony Buckingham and Tim Spicer. There are Britons fighting now in the Ukraine. We started by positively encouraging factions in the Syrian civil war, with the Saudis and CIA arming and training them and some of those factions helped constitute ISIL. There is no evidence at all that Islamic State had any interest in attacks in the UK until we started to attack it. (That is not to say it is not a very bad organisation and did not commit actions against UK citizens in its “Caliphate area”. But it did not threaten the UK).
For the government to claim the right to kill British people through sci-fi execution, based on highly unreliable secret intelligence and a secret declaration of legality, is so shocking I find it difficult to believe it is happening even as I type the words. Are we so cowed as to accept this?
Cameron on extra-judicial deaths : Not waiving but droning.
RoS:
The industrial zone is intended to benefit Palestinians. From your link:
A delegation of Turkish economic officials is set to hold talks this week with their Israeli counterparts to discuss establishing a new industrial zone for Palestinians in the West Bank, in the first visit after the deadly Mavi Marmara incident in 2010 which caused serious tension between Turkey and Israel.
“The main focus is the new industrial zone in collaboration with the U.S., emphasizing the Turks’ obligation to the Palestinian economy. We believe it is one of the keys to strengthening the area and this kind of collaboration,” Israeli diplomatic sources told the Hürriyet Daily News on Aug. 31.
How this might be achieved without at least being polite to some Israelis is beyond me.
Turkey’s attitude to Israel is certainly ambiguous. However, Erdogan still wants to be seen as a supporter of Muslim interests in the region (to the impotent fury of the secularist tendency), and Turkey has made several undertakings relevant to the reconstruction of Gaza. But regional rivalries and Israeli intransigence make these hard to carry out:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611600
Google ‘Turkey Gaza’ if the paywall pops up in my link, and link from the Google entry ‘Why Egypt Won’t Let Turkey Be Gaza’s Hero – Diplomacy …’ – there’s a lot of additional material on the Google page, much of which clearly shows that the relationship is a complex one with Israel.
“Surely this is a material change of circumstances?”
No, business as normal.
If they were combatants in a war zone that is, dying is what has always happened to combatants in a war zone.
ROS at 2.46 asks if there is a kill list.
Apparently, Yes.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-draws-up-kill-list-of-isis-fighters-who-can-be-taken-out-at-a-moments-notice-10491191.html
Yes Baal so it is sorry about that, this is the one with thd economic link between Turkey and Israel. Apparently Turkey wants to buy gas from Israel, and will build a undersea pipeline to carry it.
Turkey currently imports gas from Iran, Azerbaijan and Russia.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/09/01/report-tangible-improvement-in-israel-turkey-relations-since-liebermans-departure-from-foreign-ministry/#
Militarily, the two countries have also experienced a renewed warming of ties, with Israel exporting military goods to Turkey, such as an advanced defence technology that Israel is normally hesitant to sell to Middle Eastern countries, lest it fall into the hands of enemies.
Historically, Turkey and Israel have had good, close relations, with Turkey being the second Islamic country, after Iran, to recognise Israel’s independence and to establish diplomatic ties with the Jewish state.
It would seem Leiberman is the fall guy here.
I have just been watching Mhairi listening to the refugee debate. She looks very pensive. Love to know what she thinks of the mother of parliaments in action from her experience so far. Does she have a blog?
Britain is broken for sure. One example in this report of the breakdown in the magistrates’ courts system. Courts are being closed, funding cut, delays in paperwork, non attendance by defendants and witnesses and so on.
Gove is in overall control now.
Magistrates’ warning as court delays create ‘postcode lottery’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33634404
‘Where the law ends, tyranny begins.’ John Locke said that. He was the philosopher and thinker who laid the foundations for the Enlightenment.
Where is he now?
The new government has suffered its first defeat in the House of Commons, over changes to rules governing the in/out EU referendum campaign.
Ministers wanted to amend so-called “purdah” rules which limit government activity during the campaign period.
But Labour teamed up with rebel Tory MPs to block the move by 312 to 285 and ensure the normal rules would apply.
Typical BBC no mention of the SNP, helping to block the Tories they’re a dirty word around Westminster.
https://archive.is/grCJ3
Well, everyone does little deals with Israel, RoS….
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Report-Russia-purchased-ten-Israeli-drones-415575
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rXhlPUySphY/Ve6_F7rtH9I/AAAAAAAAZh4/_26V8ojEoIo/s1600/isis.jpg
Republicofscotland
8 Sep, 2015 – 4:19 pm – thanks for that clarity.
And yea. sobering isn’t it.
“Currently we live in a society where the government claims the right to:
Arrest and detain any individual, indefintely, without charge or trial.
Extradite any civilian overseas to any foreign power, even those who use torture.
Observe and record the internet, email and phone communications of anybody in the world without warning or warrant.
Execute, by drone strike or other means, anybody anywhere in the world – regardless of whether or not they have been convicted of a crime”
And all because the us went crazy over what it has been guilty of with much worse effects, See the first 9/11…
Craig, thanks as ever for your insight. I agree this is scary stuff – but I have to play devil’s advocate in the name of balance.
1. As someone noted above, isn’t the fact Syria is a warzone a crucial disanalogy with the Gibraltar assassinations?
2. Can we not imagine a situation where British jihadis in Syria are encouraging and facilitating attacks in the UK without leaving Syria, and if so would this not constitute solid evidence for the threat such individuals posed, without necessarily providing enough information on the attack itself and the people involved to reliably thwart it?
Some people are cowed, some find it to difficult hold an argument together so they can see what it means, some are both.
1 explain “warzone” ….We are not at war in any substantive way.
2 We can imagine all kind of things.
Anyone claiming balance with so many inbuilt assumptions about what states are, can and can’t do, should of should not do. I call nonsense.
Criminal gangs simply do not act in anyones interest than their own, and nation states are illegitimate structure’s by assumption. Having proved the outcome for good being tiny compared to the horror they inflict on the world. This tiny monitory…
Just how are they planning to “thwart” with nukes? It sound all nice eveytime a superhero speaks in such ways, but in real life that’s all bollox to keep structures of power and domination. Structures of madness. That are FAR FAR more dangerous than some person who MAY be doing such-and-such. And I’d assume he or she doesn’t have unlimited funds from dutifully obedient oppressed populations…
How many times have we heard it.
should or* should not do
Has “killer Cameron” killed OPSEC by revealing the drone attack(s)?
The opposition/frenemy Da’ish now knows to look for the multispectral target designators, or the nano-tracing elements and the special forces boots on the ground that are painting with these tools.
PIRA remnants in Dublin/east-Belfast had similarly better buy reaper/hellfire proof umbrellas after this slide down the slippery slope to death without a judicial process.
Those pensioners in Woking putting the bin out on the wrong night will soon inevitably face the same demise, No?
On another thread I made a comment to the effect that Arab dictators have often come to a very sticky (and unpleasant)end and took the end of “Colonel” Khaddafi as a recent example.
I suppose I should have widened my thought to say “Arab leaders” in general.
This is what I came across (in Wkikpedia again – sorry, Mr Scorgie!) wrt one-time Iraki Prime Minister Nuri as-Sa’id:
“Nuri went into hiding, but he was captured the next day as he sought to make his escape disguised as a woman (but with men’s shoes). He was shot dead and buried that same day, but an angry mob disinterred his corpse and dragged it through the streets of Baghdad, where it was hung up, burned and mutilated.”
This happened in 1958 when Mr as-Sa’id was overthrown by the Iraki military led by General Qu’assam.
As it happens, the good General was himself overthrown a few yrs later and shot after immediately a trial which makes the trial of Romania’s late unlamented dictator Mr Ceausescu look like a model of justice.
Now you don’t get that sort of thing happening in democratic countries like Israel, do you.
My feeling is there provably are people planning stuff @ the uk. And the state would love them to succeed. They seem to be doing everything to encourage it. Debasing any notion of morality or civilization.
We know all the mass surveillance makes it harder to target real (small fry) terrorists. We know states don’t care about the terrorist threat in real life. If they did Iraq would never have happened.
And it’s not about threat’s that will always be hare in some measure. It’s about actions that improve, or in our case worsen the threat. It’s not people in power who will be harmed after all. They have immeasurable security. So why don’t you just sacrifice your security for our profits. NO? then it will be forced upon you through legislation.
Government is a civil war.
The ISIS Conspiracy: Origins (Part 1)
In the first part of a series, Brandon Martinez of Non-Aligned Media unravels the murky origins of ISIS and unveils how the group’s meteoric rise in Iraq and Syria is a continuation of US psychological warfare designed to facilitate the Zionist-Neocon agenda of toppling seven sovereign Middle Eastern and North African States.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-LbGW-8vig
The ISIS Conspiracy: US-Israeli-Saudi Intrigue (Part 2)
In part 2 of the “ISIS Conspiracy” series, Brandon Martinez of Non-Aligned Media unravels the intricate web of deceit and double-dealing that lies behind the manufactured ISIS phenomenon, and shows how the US and Israel have for decades plotted behind the scenes to implode the Middle East.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5KgTjxydVY
@Ishmael – I didn’t think I included any assumptions about states. I’m with Craig on the injustice of the act, but whenever I’m with Craig I do my best to find flaws in the argument, because sooner or later I will have to defend it against someone who really doesn’t think there was anything wrong with the killing.
1. I define warzone as an area where lots of people are fighting one another with weapons – but that is immaterial. My point was simply that in Gibraltar it would have been relatively easy to apprehend the suspects; in Syria by comparison the ongoing war raises plausible obstacles for the UK state to effectively arrest someone. Since Cameron’s legal argument turns on the difficulty of apprehension, this disanalogy strikes me as crucial.
2. Yes, we can imagine all sorts of things. But Craig’s point was that the situation as outlined by Cameron was logically impossible. If we can in fact imagine that situation – even if it is far-fetched, which I happily grant – then it is not logically impossible and Craig was incorrect.
The bullies and wana be gangsters that live locally are just the same. Of course they are all ‘stand up’ guys, and it’s a ‘tough world’ where violence is necessary.
But while imagining this world of theirs (that they create) they are a small loud aggressive minority.
This is the minority the state reflects most closely, thugs and violent criminals. A big reason why many don’t socialize locally, we know these degraded fuckers are out there just looking to prove themselves, mug some helpless elderly person or beat someone weaker than them. Really they’re more products of the state than most.
It is not possible to go into Syria and arrest these animals. By travelling to Iraq/Syria and joining Islamic State they have declared themselves a terrorist threat to the UK, as well as to the people of Iraq and Syria, and have effectively forfeited any rights they once had as British citizens.
The idea that these fanatics should be allowed to run around beheading people with impunity because they have a piece of paper that says they are British is deplorable. It is precisely because they hold British passports that the UK should take responsibility for their heinous actions by way of targeted drone strikes.
My only hope is that this isn’t just some stunt by the PR man, Cameron. It needs to be followed through with repeated strikes on Islamic State targets followed by a major offensive to rid the region of this scourge on humanity. We are dealing with the most barbaric savagery imaginable. It must be wiped out.
Well, I’ve been banned from Guardian comments, yet again. I only came back to support Corbyn, and my latest incarnation lasted not much more than a month. Can’t say I’ll miss BTL, because it’s become a total hate-fest with regard to Syria, et al. I know a lot of them are the Habba brigade, but the foaming at the mouth stuff does seem to reflect public opinion at the moment. Depressing.
But enough about me. I’m only posting to give a link to Chunky Mark’s latest, in which he talks about media propaganda. Chunky also seems to have been bowled over by recent events.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fcbuV2Zqb0
Anon1, I presume you’ll be one of the first to sign-up for active service in Syria.
“We are dealing with the most barbaric savagery imaginable. It must be wiped out.”
_____________________
Hmmmm…Really!
Here’s me thinking that the 500,000 Iraqi children that died due to UN sanctions was the most barbaric, well I never you live and learn eh…
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/mar/04/weekend7.weekend9
TJ, The point is are imagined scenarios reasonable to take substantive action on. But I don’t even think it’s anything but an excuse for intervention in real terms.
‘We’ can (and do) halp intercept and store most everyones communications around the world. I’m sure if they wanted they could find a way to target real threats more. They don’t.
My point is this is a totally bullshit conversation. “We” don’t work like that, this is not the nature of power.
So there is no legitimate authority we could appeal to in Syria? so who created this situation? Not that we would ever EVER in reality appeal to authority over Territory’s “we” consider our own. After all we went in to save them didn’t we.
Ishmael.
Yes very true, at least they don’t seem to boil many people alive in the UK…well not that I know of anyway.
After reading a account of one such case in olden days I’m mighty glad it’s fell out of fashion in Britain.
Quote:
He roared mighty loud, and divers women who were big with child did feel sick at the sight of what they saw, and were carried away half dead; and other men and women did not seem frightened by the boiling alive, but would prefer to see the headsman at his work.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_boiling
As mentioned earlier in this thread Khan was reported killed on the 7th July in a news piece of the 22 July
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/isis-young-british-jihadist-fighting-6112530
There was no hullabalo then, Cameron didn’t tell us about the “departure”. The press are frenzied by what they claim was a 21 Aug attack, Daily Mail comments have gone into overdrive praising Cameron’s decisiveness and bravery.
But if he ordered the assasination 2 months ago why is he getting excited now and why are the press lying about when it occured?
I think I know the answer.
https://www.gov.im/news/2014/jul/08/financial-sanctions-terrorism-and-terrorist-financing/
The coup in Iraq in 1963 that toppled Gen. Qassam and brought to power a coalition of military officers and Ba’ath Party figures, very much including Saddam Hussein, was sponsored by the CIA and British intelligence. The CIA was helpful enough to provide the new leaders with a list of thousands of Iraqis that it claimed were Communists. Saddam then led the slaughter of those unfortunates .
“a way to target real threats more”
And just to clear up, I mean target in a civil manner. To twart, expose, hold to account those proven where harm is imminent. To respect other counties laws and international law…
An I note how an amazing amount of those real threats (that have harmed people) just seem to be ignored, threats, alarms, blatant warnings, ignored…
I guess many future one’s are already being trained funded through government and NGO organizations. The question of what actually reduces real threats? we don’t have to go anywhere far.